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Thread: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

  1. #2361

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Congrats to the 2 fellow RUG pilots who made top32 at the SCG Washington open!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  2. #2362

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    For the record:
    List A
    Ryan Lesko
    6th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 10/28/2017

    Creatures (11)

    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Nimble Mongoose
    3 Tarmogoyf
    Lands (18)

    1 Flooded Strand
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island
    4 Wasteland
    3 Wooded Foothills
    Spells (31)

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    1 Dismember
    4 Force of Will
    4 Lightning Bolt
    2 Spell Pierce
    2 Spell Snare
    4 Stifle
    1 Chain Lightning
    4 Ponder
    1 Preordain
    Sideboard

    2 Winter Orb
    2 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Seal of Fire
    1 Sylvan Library
    2 Ancient Grudge
    1 Flusterstorm
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Spell Pierce
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Vendilion Clique

    List B
    Jadine Klomparens
    28th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 10/28/2017
    Legacy


    Creatures (12)

    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Nimble Mongoose
    3 Tarmogoyf
    1 True-Name Nemesis
    Lands (18)

    3 Flooded Strand
    4 Misty Rainforest
    1 Polluted Delta
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island
    4 Wasteland
    Spells (30)

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    1 Dismember
    4 Force of Will
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Spell Pierce
    4 Stifle
    1 Chain Lightning
    1 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Ponder
    Sideboard

    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Grim Lavamancer
    1 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Sylvan Library
    2 Abrade
    1 Flusterstorm
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Spell Snare
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Rough
    1 Ghost Quarter
    I have been testing Tarmogoyfs again this week after the discussion with Ryan and can see his points more clearly.
    I think one problem is that I overestimated the prevalence of Push and Decay, where currently BUG delver is the only deck that plays more than 1-2 of these. The problem with trying to beat BUG with Mandrills is that BUG also plays Tarmogoyf x4 which trumps Mandrills anyway and against the RUG mirror you have the same problem that packing Mandrills vs Goyf is basically a recipe for disaster.
    The lack of any kind of wide removal in the SB is a little surprising and I almost feel like Loam would be better in the Ghost Quarter slot but I have been liking the 1 Preordain. I would also like to know what matchups you brought in winter orb and how strong you found it.
    [Edit: Sorry, the Ghost Quarter is the other player]

    Have you considered playing maindeck Seal of Fires in the Dismember/Chain Lightning slots?
    I was testing 2 Seal 1 Preordain 2 Snare 1 Pierce 4 Goyf and I was fairly happy with that but it's not an ideal configuration for Tarmogoyf mirrors. The idea is that you don't need Dismember to beat X/5s when your Tarmogoyfs are larger and this would also give you an extra SB space. When I tested 3 Goyf with 1 Seal in SB (a la the J Alexander build from earlier in the year) I found that interaction wasn't consistent enough.
    Anyway congrats on top 8.

  3. #2363
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    nice to see the deck putting up results!
    I'm not sold on the Mandrills yet but i do like to have creatures that are hard to interact with. What about a 2/2 Split on Goyf and TNN?

  4. #2364

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    @Agrippa: I like your 5-0-report, it shows both anaytical some play and more importantly some analytical evaluation of errors. I also like your reasoning regarding the traits of Grixis and Canadian delver, I believe your analysis is spot on.
    Thus, if you say Life from the loam isn't good in a Thought scour build, I believe you, eventhough mine and others' experience with loam has been good.
    However I'm not sure I agree about your reasoning on ground seal - a card which I have also played and unfortunaly cut from my sideobard. As you say RUG is already well equipped to deal with Control-decks due to Goose and the ability to play more cheap counters than the other delver decks. Why do we need a card that is specifically aimed to fight shaman + snapcaster in our sideboard? If reanimator didn't play exhume, and our go-to graveyard hate wasn't surgical extraction, it would have implications here as well. Sylvan is probably more all-round and Compost is probably more valuable versus black-based Control (as well as black-based combo).

    @Kombatwiki: My take on push is that it "pushed" goyf out of the format. But when there were no more goyfs around grixis decks rather play bolt so they can target the face, and thus goyf is playable again. I guess if goyf makes a big comeback, push will be everywhere again.

    On another note: Have any of you tried to board in Pithing Needle versus Control decks with lots of basics (such as New miracle) to tag a fetchland (i.e. Flooded stand)? It seems that they would have a hard time finding plains without strands and it might make stifle on delta and wasteland on tundra more potent. I'm debating running Mistys + Foothills just for this reason.

  5. #2365

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    I have been testing Tarmogoyfs again this week after the discussion with Ryan and can see his points more clearly.
    I think one problem is that I overestimated the prevalence of Push and Decay, where currently BUG delver is the only deck that plays more than 1-2 of these. The problem with trying to beat BUG with Mandrills is that BUG also plays Tarmogoyf x4 which trumps Mandrills anyway and against the RUG mirror you have the same problem that packing Mandrills vs Goyf is basically a recipe for disaster. The lack of any kind of wide removal in the SB is a little surprising and I almost feel like Loam would be better in the Ghost Quarter slot but I have been liking the 1 Preordain. I would also like to know what matchups you brought in winter orb and how strong you found it.
    [Edit: Sorry, the Ghost Quarter is the other player]

    Have you considered playing maindeck Seal of Fires in the Dismember/Chain Lightning slots?
    I was testing 2 Seal 1 Preordain 2 Snare 1 Pierce 4 Goyf and I was fairly happy with that but it's not an ideal configuration for Tarmogoyf mirrors. The idea is that you don't need Dismember to beat X/5s when your Tarmogoyfs are larger and this would also give you an extra SB space. When I tested 3 Goyf with 1 Seal in SB (a la the J Alexander build from earlier in the year) I found that interaction wasn't consistent enough.
    Anyway congrats on top 8.
    Thanks :)

    What is in bold is exactly what caused me to play Goyf, in addition to the fact that I wanted to have a big beater against eldrazi / chalice decks. I wouldn't have changed a single card in the main deck. It is not an accident that Preordain and Chain Lightning are both sorceries (for Goyf purposes). Funny enough, I was also able to chain lightning an opposing 2/3 goyf (land and ponder in GY).

    Seal + Goyf is something I independently arrived at in previous RUG iterations for the same reasons Jon played it - grows your goyf to 5/6 against Gurmag Anglers and can't be touched by Deathrite. Conveniently enough I was also to play a seal in advance against Burn, to kill his Eidolon after it resolved!

    Onto Winter Orb..I owe it to Jon for pioneering that card in RUG. I was bringing in Winter Orb against new miracles, various blade decks, cloudpost decks, and loam decks. It honestly overperformed, but I wouldn't add a 3rd one at the moment. The night before the tournament I was testing the esper stoneblade matchup with a friend and I tried out boarding out all stifles, goyfs, and preordain for 2 winter orb, 2 True Name, 2 Ancient Grudge, and 2 Pyroblast. It honestly never even felt close, they simply have no choice but to play into the orb, needing to tap 3-4 mana per turn.

    The best play of the day was when I was stuck on one land with a goose in play vs an opponent who had a SFM + Batterskull. I had a grudge, bolt, daze, and Orb in hand but no red. Finally I drew a red source and passed (I almost scooped TBH, life total was like 10-30 and I had a 1/1 goose). With 5 mana open, my opponent cantripped twice, then attacked with batterskull. I grudge his batterskull which he bounces in response (he is now tapped out). On my turn I draw another land and bolt his stoneforge and played winter orb. It was simply a blowout, with mongoose going the distance.

    I hadn't considered running things like Seal main deck. There is the fear that you grow opposing goyfs, and I like my burn spells to all be able to burn my opponents face for 3. Fork Bolting / Seal of Fire-ing a combo opponent is just too lack luster for me. But in a heavy elves meta perhaps I could be persuaded to play forked bolt (So I think right now Chain Lightning > Forked Bolt > Seal of Fire for that slot).

    In the end I also decided that sweepers weren't strong enough in the current meta, especially since we want to bring in True Names against most decks where something like rough // tumble would be good. My deck was definitely a little soft to elves but I was able to dodge it all day. That being said I definitely still think the matchup is winnable with my current 75.

    I'll probably write up something a bit more extensive but for now, the only card that underperformed was Sylvan Library. Probably would change it for a cage, submerge, or a sulfur elemental. Though I haven't given it much thought.

  6. #2366

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    @JackoBo: Thanks for the compliment. I like Ground Seal because it provides gy-hate #4 (as you say only exhume dodges it and we have plenty for that one) and is good against every control variant. Getting Snapcasters against white control decks is pretty nice imo because swords on mandrills can be a real pain, especially when they have TNN blocking Mongoose. Against pile I want to stop DRS as well as Strix recursion.
    I agree that library is better against control in general, however I already play 2 dismember and don't want additional life loss since there're matchups where I bring in all of these cards, e.g. vs. all these deathrite-midrange decks. There's just no other card (besides a 2nd library) that's good against lands, miracles, 4c-control, deathblade, stoneblade, 4c-loam at the same time.
    Now that said this sb-is not carved in stone, I might cut it at some point if I'm not content . So far though it performed quite solid.

  7. #2367

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa91 View Post
    I agree that library is better against control in general, however I already play 2 dismember and don't want additional life loss since there're matchups where I bring in all of these cards, e.g. vs. all these deathrite-midrange decks. There's just no other card (besides a 2nd library) that's good against lands, miracles, 4c-control, deathblade, stoneblade, 4c-loam at the same time.
    Except maybe winter orb. Eventhough both new miracle and 4c have maindeck answers in UA and K-command, resolving those spells versus RUG with orb in play should not be too easy.

  8. #2368

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Would you say that RUG has pretty even matchups across the board, or not really?
    Are there any terrible matchups for the decks? Besides Eldrazi, that is.

  9. #2369
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by trinkets View Post
    Would you say that RUG has pretty even matchups across the board, or not really?
    Are there any terrible matchups for the decks? Besides Eldrazi, that is.
    I played Thresh the other night using the 2 pierce/snare/mandrills, 1 TNN/chain build from champs. Lands was a nightmare. Otherwise I managed to 2-0 Maverick and BUG midrange so it felt pretty good.

  10. #2370

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by trinkets View Post
    Would you say that RUG has pretty even matchups across the board, or not really?
    Are there any terrible matchups for the decks? Besides Eldrazi, that is.
    Even match ups, even Eldrazi if you are playing at least three tarmogoyf.

    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    I played Thresh the other night using the 2 pierce/snare/mandrills, 1 TNN/chain build from champs. Lands was a nightmare. Otherwise I managed to 2-0 Maverick and BUG midrange so it felt pretty good.
    Lands should still be ok with the monkey build. But I wouldn't play mandrills if I unthresh'd my geese vs them.

  11. #2371

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Just played a match against CP where my Goyfs got pushed 4 times in 3 games
    There's no right answer lmao (also snaps are a beating)

    I have been playing Loam/Ring in the SB and liking it but maybe it's worth it to play Ground Seal somewhere and then cut loam to play Library in the 'grindy card advantage' slot.
    But if I am mainly bringing in Ground Seal against black decks then maybe compost is better? Does anybody have any experience with these?

  12. #2372

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    If you really want to beat pile Compost is the way to go. Marius Hausman gave me that advice. I've haven't had enough testing versus pile myself.

  13. #2373

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    Just played a match against CP where my Goyfs got pushed 4 times in 3 games
    There's no right answer lmao (also snaps are a beating)

    I have been playing Loam/Ring in the SB and liking it but maybe it's worth it to play Ground Seal somewhere and then cut loam to play Library in the 'grindy card advantage' slot.
    But if I am mainly bringing in Ground Seal against black decks then maybe compost is better? Does anybody have any experience with these?


    How many copies of spell snare are you running?

  14. #2374

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post


    How many copies of spell snare are you running?
    2

  15. #2375
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Interesting article from Jeff Hoogland about Canadian:
    http://www.gatheringmagic.com/jeffho...ver-in-legacy/

  16. #2376
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by trinkets View Post
    Would you say that RUG has pretty even matchups across the board, or not really?
    Are there any terrible matchups for the decks? Besides Eldrazi, that is.
    I would say that reanimator is quite hard.

  17. #2377

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonny Tempel View Post
    Interesting article from Jeff Hoogland about Canadian:
    http://www.gatheringmagic.com/jeffho...ver-in-legacy/
    Interesting article but I'm not sure about his list though. Sixth burnspell over dismember, sure, but green sun zenith?

  18. #2378

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by JackaBo View Post
    Interesting article but I'm not sure about his list though. Sixth burnspell over dismember, sure, but green sun zenith?
    Yeah GSZ is a bust and apart from that his list isn't anything exciting. Maindeck clique feels like a meta call that isn't exactly warranted at the moment.

    I still feel 2x Grudge is better than the split with Abrade. Have been testing the following list

    4x
    Delver
    Goose
    Goyf
    Bolt
    Ponder
    Brainstorm
    Force
    Daze
    Stifle
    2 Seal of Fire
    1 Spell Pierce
    2 Spell Snare
    1 Preordain
    3 Trop
    3 Volc
    4 Waste
    8 Fetches

    2 Grudge
    2 Surgical
    2 TNN
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Red Blast
    1 Loam
    1 Barbarian Ring
    1 Forked Bolt
    1 Pierce
    1 Honden of Infinite Rage
    1 Scavenging Ooze

    I like the Loam/Ring sideboard a lot, and I don't think I want Loam AND Sylvan Library.

    I have tested both Honden and Granite Shard:
    Granite Shard pros:
    - More flexibility on when you can activate it
    - Colorless (Mother of Runes)
    Honden Pros:
    - Doesn't cost mana to activate
    - Doesn't die to Kolaghans Command

    The reason why I like this slot is because it's repeated removal vs Elves, DNT etc but also a Sulfuric Vortex against Czech Pile and UW
    vs CP it kills Strix for free and against both control matchups it also kills Snapcasters

    Ooze is a catch-all that does many things
    - Big ground dork / Tarmogoyf #5
    - Eat graveyards (Good against fair decks Snapcaster/Delve/Kolaghans/Goose but also combo Griselbrand/Ichorid/Past in Flames)
    - Lifegain (Not that important but fine vs Burn)

    Not convinced it's the best thing for that slot but based on how it has performed in the past I am happy to play it for now.

    For winning the 'big ground dork' wars I have also tried Rhonas in the SB but I found against most Goyf/Angler matchups it was too hard to keep 1 other creature (and it doesn't cooperate with Mongoose, which is flavorful for a Snake but not ideal for winning matches).
    If your meta has a lot of Chalice decks in it then I think maybe it's worth considering but in general not fantastic (not that anyone was wondering...)

  19. #2379
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Howdy!

    I have a very specific question that I feel the RUG crowd is best positioned to answer. I play a 4c Delver deck that basically boils down to Team America with Bolts over Decay and Pierce over Hymn. I have 2 flex slots to dedicate ideally to blue sorceries. Given that I play 3 Goyfs, 2 Gurmags/Stalkers, and need access to 4 colors, should I play Preordain or Gitaxian Probe? A split? Or perhaps Stifles/Snares are better?

    More selection vs. More velocity is difficult to answer.

    How good is Probe compared to Preordain if you don't play Pyro and Therapy? Probe is simply a good card to draw a singleton in every game as it provides info, often grows Goyf, and speeds up Delver creatures. Preordain offers a more powerful cantrip effect while also contributing to the Goyf/Delve plan but will always cost you mana.

    Is there a way to know how many cantrips is too many? How much of an impact knowing your opponent's hand has on the game?

    Thanks!
    Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
    Get it...? Ass, u, me?

    ... ffs I was trying to be funny...

  20. #2380

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    In order of importance for Probe synergies Goyf and Threshold are probably last on the list behind Pyro/Therapy/Snapcaster/PIF. (Delve is somewhere in between).

    When Grixis Delver is the most (or one of the most) popular decks in the format then paying 2 life to cycle is a real cost and even CP can win by Snap-Bolting you. Without any of the above mentioned cards the only value from the peek is figuring out how to line up your disruption and I don't think this is generally worth it.

    You can see the BUG delver list from Eternal Weekend with 3 Tarmogoyf and 2 Tombstalker which played 7 sorceries (4 Hymn 3 Ponder) 0 Probe.
    The Grixis lists from same event all have 4 Probe, but not only do they have multiple Delve cards (1 list had only 1 Tombstalker for delve but also played snapcaster) but also Pyromancer main and Therapy in the sideboard.

    I wouldn't play more than 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder 2 'X' (Probe, or Thoughtscour, or Preordain, or whatever) because you don't want to be spending too much mana 'spinning your wheels', and they are also blank draws if your opponent has a Leovold out. At the moment I am playing 4-4-1 Preordain and I like how that feels.

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