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Thread: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

  1. #981

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Congratulations and thanks a lot, Daniel!! You should have won the finals (bad luck at times also), but I think that you did so well.

  2. #982
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Congratulations on your result and thanks a lot for very nice and detailed report. It was a pleasure to read!

  3. #983

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Thanks for all the love guys! Here's the sideboard guide:

    RUG Delver Sideboard Guide

    Standard RUG 54 with
    2 Spell Pierce
    2 Gitaxian Probe
    2 Forked Bolt

    Sideboard:

    2 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Sulfuric Vortex
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Krosan Grip
    3 Pyroblast
    2 Submerge
    2 Rough

    Some Card Explanations:

    Grafdigger's Cage
    One of them could be replaced with a Surgical Extraction to help against Punishing Fire, Life from the Loam, Dark Depths Decks.

    True-Name Nemesis
    Mongoose number 5. Also helps with stopping opposing Jitte counters and Batterskull Lifegain. Acts as a Moat, and allows you to keep swinging when the opponent plays their own True-Name. Often I found myself ahead on board with a Goose + Goyf but couldn't swing in against their 1 True-Name unless I had 2 Goyf's. There would be a standstill until they got some equipment and won.

    Sulfuric Vortex
    Good against Jitte/Batterskull lifegain. Amazing against Miracles, which is a bad matchup for us. Miracles only has Council's Judgement to get rid of it. It can be a psuedo Goose in that matchup.

    Krosan Grip
    A concession to Miracles. Counterbalance lock wrecks us. Setting up a board state where we have some 0/1 Tarmogoyf's vs a Rest in Peace for a sudden: kill your RiP EoT, cast some spells, end the game is a thing.

    Pyroblast
    3 is the correct number here. Better than REB for Thresh in a pinch. Counters True-Name, Counterbalance, Treasure Cruise. Efficient answer for most of the format.


    Other cards I like:

    Simic Charm: This card is the tech. Counters 1 Mana removal, psuedo Bolts, and bounces Goyf. If Goose had hexproof, I would definitely have this as a one of in the main/board.

    Vendilion Clique: A beater + disruption vs combo and good vs Stoneforge/True-Name decks to take the equipment and go over the top.

    Sulfur Elemental: I go back and forth on this. Death and Taxes is rough, and he helps a lot. It seems they've moved more to Serra Avengers to go over the top of True-Name so I've recently cut it. Good vs Miracles too, as it forces removal because it can't be countered.


    Note: I like to take out Force of Will in fair matchups; the card disadvantage is too brutal.

    /* CONTROL */

    Shardless BUG

    I haven't played against this deck much, but Stifle/Waste vs all nonbasics seems good.

    Out:
    4x Force of Will
    1x Daze
    In:
    1x Ancient Grudge (Make that Baleful Strix a little less painful. Also kills Shardless Agent)
    1x Rough // Tumble (Can unclog the ground in a pinch)
    1x True-Name Nemesis (A nice, hard to kill, clock)
    2x Submerge (Mainly played for tempo. Submerging is painful in this matchup, but free)


    UW(r) Miracles

    This matchup is rough, and very very favored for Miracles. Post board Rest In Peace is brutal. Stifle those Miracle triggers, try to counter Top, and stop the counterbalance at all costs. Terminus is a blowout, but you have to be aggressive and commit threats to the board to win.

    Out:
    4 Force of will
    1 Tarmogoyf
    2 Forked Bolt
    In:
    1 Pithing Needle (for Top/Jace, but usually Top)
    1 Krosan Grip (for RiP and Counterbalance, Batterskull if they're on that plan)
    1 True-Name Nemesis (stretch Terminus/Council's Judgement to the max. We need lots of threats in this matchup)
    1 Sulfuric Vortex (A durdle deck's worst nightmare)
    3 Pyroblast (Counter target Jace/Counterbalance)

    Stoneblade

    Stop the Batterskull/True-Name at all costs. Stifle/Waste/Goose your way to victory. They have a lot of removal, so Goose is MVP here.

    Out:
    4 Force of Will
    2 Forked Bolt
    1 Tarmogoyf (They usually play RiP and Goyf is dead in that case)

    In:
    3 Pyroblast (Counters True-Name Nemesis, which we kinda auto-lose to)
    1 True-Name Nemesis (Can't beat 'em, join 'em)
    1 Krosan Grip (Equipment is bad for us)
    1 Ancient Grudge (See above)
    1 Sulfuric Vortex (Nice lifegain ya got there)


    Lands

    This matchup is almost a bye for them. Just try to be as fast as possible. You can't really play around much here, just try to kill them before they lock you out.

    Out:
    1 Force of Will
    2 Daze
    2 Forked Bolt

    In:
    1 Pithing Needle (For Maze of Ith/Thespian's Stage. Generally better to name the Stage.)
    1 Sulfuric Vortex (They run Zuran Orb. If they don't Dark Depths you, they durdle forever.)
    2 Submerge (A Time Walk vs Marit Laige)
    1 True-Name Nemesis (They can't Punishing Fire/Decay/Maze this guy. It can be hard to get to 3 mana though.)


    /* COMBO */

    Storm

    A good player can make this matchup rough. Brainstorm to hide your countermagic from Duress/Cabal Therapy can be correct a lot of the time. We're still favored here.

    Out:
    2x Forked Bolt
    3x Lightning Bolt (I leave one in to shorten my clock + kill Xantid Swarm)
    In:
    2x Grafdigger's Cage (Stops Past in Flames, their best way to go off)
    1x Flusterstorm (Read the card)
    2x Pyroblast (Counter's cantrips to slow them down)


    Show and Tell

    I honestly believe the best gameplan in this matchup is Stifle/Wasteland. Either way, we're RUG; we're going to beat the combo deck like we should.

    Out:
    4 Lightning Bolt
    2 Forked Bolt
    In:
    1 Flusterstorm
    3 Pyroblast
    1 Krosan Grip (Good vs Sneak Attack and OK vs Blood Moon. With Daze + Spell Pierce you can make sure they don't have enough mana to activate the Sneak Attack and hopefully blow it up.)
    1 Ancient Grudge (If you suspect Defense Grid. They probably have it.)


    Elves

    I play this differently from most I think. I will almost always Force of Will a turn 1 any elf ever. Their gameplan is to get to turn 3-4 ASAP, and all they have to do to do that is play a mana accelerant creature. They get double value for Gaea's cradle.

    Out:
    4x Stifle
    2x Spell Pierce
    In:
    2x Submerge (Submerging their turn 1 elf is the tempoest tempo play ever.)
    2x Rough // Tumble (Nice board ya got there, shame if something happened to it.)
    2x Grafdigger's Cage (Shuts down Green Sun's Zenith and Natural Order)


    Dredge

    Stifling Narcomeoba's is the nuts. Daze is good here; even better if they're Manaless Dredge. Try to race, and don't be afraid of bolting your own Delver to clear Bridge From Below.

    Out:
    1x Forked Bolt
    2x Gitaxian Probe (It doesn't matter what's in their hand and the rest of our deck is good vs them.)
    In:
    2x Grafdigger's Cage (Duh)
    1x Rough // Tumble (Hedge against a big Zombie board. A lot of Dredge lists are missing Flame-Kin Zealot for the combo kill)


    Reanimator

    Better hope they don't go off turn 1. This matchup can be rough, as they are fast and have a lot of disruption. Try to be aggressive by countering things that put bodies in the graveyard, because they have tons of reanimation spells that Pyroblast doesn't hit. Countering cantrips is good too; this deck mulligans a lot because of janky hands.

    Out:
    4 Lightning Bolt
    2 Forked Bolt
    In:
    3 Pyroblast (Counter cantrips, win counter wars)
    2 Grafdigger's Cage (Duh)
    1 Flusterstorm (See Pyroblast)


    Infect

    They're fast. Don't try to get fancy with 2 for 1's. Kill their threats ASAP. Try to save Bolt/Wasteland for Inkmoth Nexus.

    Out:
    2 Force of Will (Infect doesn't have a turn 1 kill, even though its a combo deck. I felt safe taking out 2 Forces to avoid the card disadvantage)
    4 Stifle

    In:
    1 Pithing Needle (Inkmoth is a problem)
    1 Ancient Grudge (Inkmoth is a problem that Forked Bolt doesn't hit)
    1 Rough//Tumble
    1 Flusterstorm
    2 Submerge


    /* AGGRO */

    RUG Delver

    Hope you draw more lands + Tarmogoyfs

    Out:
    4x Force of Will
    2x Spell Pierce
    In:
    2x Submerge (Get your Goyf outta here)
    1x True-Name Nemesis (This may be wrong, as 3 mana is hard in a Stifle/Wasteland mirror. Definitely a trump card if it hits though.)
    1x Flusterstorm (better than Spell Pierce vs Stifle)
    2x Pyroblast (Kills Delver, counters Stifle)


    UR Delver

    We are favored in this matchup. Play control and kill their threats. Our Goose + Goyf is a beating. Watch for Swiftspear tricks and kill Pyromancer on sight.

    Out:
    4 Force of Will
    1 Gitaxian Probe

    In:
    3 Pyroblast
    2 Rough//Tumble


    UWR Delver

    We're faster than them, and have a lower curve. Stop the Bskull and True-Name and you should come out on top.

    Out:
    4x Force of Will
    2x Spell Pierce
    In:
    1x True-Name Nemesis (Trump their True-Name, stop Jitte and Bskull)
    1x Ancient Grudge (Kill their equipment)
    1x Krosan Grip (See Ancient Grudge)
    3x Pyroblast (Kill Delvers, win counter wars, counter True-Name and Treasure Cruise)


    Jund

    Punishing Fire/Abrupt Decay is rough. Wasteland is your friend in this matchup. Try to protect Goose from edicts by having other creatures out. Daze is bonkers vs Bloodbraid as they often have to tap out for it, allowing you to counter either spell.

    Out:
    4x Force of Will
    In:
    1x Pithing Needle (For Liliana mostly. Maybe Jitte if they bring it in.)
    1x True-Name Nemesis (Punishing Fire doesn't hit this guy)
    2x Submerge (They run Tarmogoyf)


    Death & Taxes

    I really hate this matchup. If they turn 1 Aether Vial you might as well scoop. Try to be as aggressive as possible. Use Stifle to protect your lands/stop the Germ token/stop Flickerwisp shenanigans. Kill Mother of Runes and Mirran Crusader. Good luck if they run Brimaz.

    Out:
    4x Force of Will
    2x Spell Pierce

    In:
    1x Pithing Needle (Aether Vial, an equipment if they don't have the Vial)
    1x True-Name Nemesis (Stops Bskull and Jitte; essentially a Moat)
    1x Ancient Grudge (Kill Vial/equipment)
    1x Krosan Grip (See above)
    2x Rough // Tumble (lol I wrath U)


    Merfolk

    Same thing as Aether Vial with Death and Taxes. Merfolk is a little faster, and may or may not attack your manabase. Don't let them resolve True-Name.

    Out:
    4x Force of Will
    4x Stifle
    In:
    1x Pithing Needle (name Vial or Mutavault)
    2x Rough // Tumble (Wrath's are good vs swarm decks)
    1x True-Name Nemesis (A beater)
    1x Ancient Grudge (They run Jitte sometimes. Good vs Vial)
    3x Pyroblast (BEST SPELL EVER VS MONOBLUE)


    Burn

    This match can be rough. Force of will only 4 damage spells, and race like crazy. Watch out for Price of Progress. Play only 2 lands and save your Wastelands to waste yourself.

    Out:
    2x Gitaxian Probe
    3x Stifle

    In:
    1x Flusterstorm (counter a burn spell)
    1x Pithing Needle (Grim Lavamancer is a thing)
    1x Krosan Grip (Sulfuric Vortex is a beating when you've clogged the ground with Goyf, but can't end the game)
    1x Rough // Tumble (Sometimes they have to commit a few creatures to the board, this helps with that so your Lightning Bolts can help you race)
    Last edited by Slide; 12-04-2014 at 02:02 PM.

  4. #984

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Hey and thanks for the nice report and sharing your sideboard guide Daniel. Also grats for good finish, keeping the RUG flame burning :)

    My decklist and sideboarding plans are a little different from yours, but that's what I like in RUG, everyone has different playstyle and preferences. So I think there's no correct sideboard-plan, just go with what feels right and build your deck based what you feel good/fun about playing :)

    With this deck, the particular one-off cards in sideboard or main can make a big difference. I myself like to have diversified threats and answers. (Still have resisted the dark side {TNN} in favor of Clique)

    Here are couple cards worth considering (I'm sure many of you already have), that I've had success with:

    Life from the loam -With the help of stifle and daze, punishing greedy manabases even more with recurring wastelands is usually game over for them. On the other hand it's pretty slow and not against wide variety of decks. Usually when I have it, I bring it in mirror and other delver matchups with no basics, Jund, Land/Post decks and some controls with little basics.

    Engineered explosives -I'm playing it over second Rough/tumble. I like the ability to kill annoying artifacts/enchantments too (vial, chalice) and it's the only answer to resolved True-name for these colors. It can also destroy counterbalance/rip and angel tokens in miracle matchup. Good in almost every matchups now that I think of it except combos and some controls.

    Other sideboard choices you already explained pretty well, that come to mind :)

    About sideboarding, against control decks I usually take out dazes at least when I'm on the draw in favor of force. Sometimes I split them too, depends on the situation. That's usually the difference people do when sideboarding with this deck.

    One thing caught my eyes from your report and guide that I would add: Against infect I would definitely bring in 2 Submerges and take all stifles out, seems like one of the best removal to have against it. Otherwise good job covering the variety of matchups :)

    There's national legacy champs next week (same day as my birthday :D) where I will be piloting TEMUR ***** (should censor the former instead lol) ...ahem, I mean RUG. Let's hope geese will take me to good places. I will try and write some report if they do. Long live mongoose!

  5. #985
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Congratulations Daniel! thanks for the very informative writeup too. thanks for bringing RUG back in the spotlight, especially mongoose.

    when they all least expect the old stifle/waste combo, that's really where we shine. GO TEMUR!
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  6. #986
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Ok, so a guy joins the forum literally days ago and writes 4 posts altogether, posts that are far more informative than any of 1734 posts by usual bed decks palyer? Thanks for ruining my day...

    Daniel, what I realized is that you very often take out FoWs where I'd keep them. Say Miracles, which is a matchup where you really need to stop CB/Jace/miracles.

    I like your sb. It pesters me that there's only one Needle there, as I'm a great fan of the card, but you correctly mentioned when only it's useful. And from my last experiences I'm under an impression that it lost a bit of its strength, as people expect it and play with it in mind.
    I'd love to squeeze one Extraction somewhere, as Loam or PFire are pain to bear, yet the slots are limited and the only natural swap (Cage) seems silly considering how powerful the Elves are.

    It still surprises me when I see the Snareless build. How do you fight Goyfs? And the many more cmc2 cards that are so much annoying, like CB, SFM, Hymn... I know that in theory all of them might be hit by FoW and the non-creature ones are suspectible to Pierce, but I'm still asking.

    Thanks for very detailed and well written posts. High quality stuff, I guess they could be linked in the primer.


    Quote Originally Posted by arbiter View Post
    With this deck, the particular one-off cards in sideboard or main can make a big difference. I myself like to have diversified threats and answers. (Still have resisted the dark side {TNN} in favor of Clique)
    Yeah, I just checked the price of TNN and decided I also won't join the dark side for a while. Clique seems like a good choice, esp. as it doesn't die to Rough.

  7. #987

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by arbiter View Post
    One thing caught my eyes from your report and guide that I would add: Against infect I would definitely bring in 2 Submerges and take all stifles out, seems like one of the best removal to have against it. Otherwise good job covering the variety of matchups :)
    You are correct; I must have copy pasted wrong. Submerge is the stones in that matchup. I've updated the post.

    Quote Originally Posted by arbiter View Post
    Life from the loam -With the help of stifle and daze, punishing greedy manabases even more with recurring wastelands is usually game over for them. On the other hand it's pretty slow and not against wide variety of decks. Usually when I have it, I bring it in mirror and other delver matchups with no basics, Jund, Land/Post decks and some controls with little basics.
    I like this card too and wish that it wasn't so durdley for us. I argue that it's too slow and too hard to get going (ie, you need this card + Wasteland), and we already have Stifle to defend our manabase if that's what we're using it for. In the mirror, yes, the Wasteland lock is brutal, but if they have a Delver and no lands they can still win if we've spent time durdling instead of interacting.

    Quote Originally Posted by arbiter View Post
    Engineered explosives -I'm playing it over second Rough/tumble. I like the ability to kill annoying artifacts/enchantments too (vial, chalice) and it's the only answer to resolved True-name for these colors. It can also destroy counterbalance/rip and angel tokens in miracle matchup. Good in almost every matchups now that I think of it except combos and some controls.
    This is a card I've had interest in but haven't tested. The best use you mention for it is Chalice of the Void, which is definitely a card we pretty much auto-scoop to. My argument against it is that it's too slow, and too narrow. I like that it destroys RiP and Counterbalance, and with some tight play, you can manipulate its mana cost to get around the Counterbalance trigger, but Rough//Tumble doesn't hit our own stuff. That small synergy, among other things, is what makes it better IMO. But I may have to test it. Could be better than expected.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    Daniel, what I realized is that you very often take out FoWs where I'd keep them. Say Miracles, which is a matchup where you really need to stop CB/Jace/miracles.
    Yes you're right those spells are very bad for us, but the card disadvantage is worse. The thing about those cards is that they can't be played on turn 1 on the play, which is what we're really afraid of when we have Force of Will in the deck. Bringing in 3 Pyroblasts is what makes up for it. I know it feels weird and scary (it was for me at first) but after much testing, I believe it is correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    I like your sb. It pesters me that there's only one Needle there, as I'm a great fan of the card, but you correctly mentioned when only it's useful. And from my last experiences I'm under an impression that it lost a bit of its strength, as people expect it and play with it in mind.
    Maybe so, but in most matchups every Needle after the first is a dead card. I really like Phyrexian Revoker in this slot, because it's disruption that also beats (which is awesome vs combo), and also hits Lion's Eye Diamond. I tested it for a bit, but it costs 2 mana (an argument that I think is huge in the context of this deck).

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    I'd love to squeeze one Extraction somewhere, as Loam or PFire are pain to bear, yet the slots are limited and the only natural swap (Cage) seems silly considering how powerful the Elves are.
    I agree. I think I may replace one with an Extraction. We have a pretty good game against Elves anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    It still surprises me when I see the Snareless build. How do you fight Goyfs? And the many more cmc2 cards that are so much annoying, like CB, SFM, Hymn... I know that in theory all of them might be hit by FoW and the non-creature ones are suspectible to Pierce, but I'm still asking.
    Yeah Goyf is a problem. Best way to beat it is to not let it resolve, or play your own and then swing over with Delver. and I could definitely see Snare in this deck because it also hits Young Pyromancer, Snapcaster, Stoneforge, Baleful Strix, Goyf, Counterbalance, and RiP. If I ran it, I would take out one of the Forked Bolts for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    Yeah, I just checked the price of TNN and decided I also won't join the dark side for a while. Clique seems like a good choice, esp. as it doesn't die to Rough.
    Dying to Rough (and costing 3 mana) is a huge weakness of TNN but I feel like it's a necessary evil. I would definitely like to be running Clique rather than TNN, but right now it's just not good enough. With the rise of UR Delver, other decks are looking for cheap removal. Decks like UWR Blade (runs Bolt + Swords), Miracles (half their deck is removal), and even UR Delver itself, are running way too much removal for Clique to dodge.

    I always look at my threats like this:

    Delver dies to:
    Bolt
    Forked Bolt
    Swords to Plowshares
    Abrupt Decay
    Punishing Fire
    Terminus
    Blocking/Being Blocked


    Tarmogoyf dies to:
    Swords to Plowshares
    Abrupt Decay
    Terminus
    Blocking/Being Blocked (and being burned as well, usually)

    Mongoose dies to:
    Terminus
    Blocking/Being Blocked

    In my opinion, the way we rank our threats from best to worst is this: Goose > Delver > Tarmogoyf.

    I've found as spot removal has gone up, the value of Mongoose goes up. Although V.Clique can go over the top, the fact that it gets hit by every removal spell in the format makes it really weak in the current meta. True-Name also shutting down Jitte/Bskull entirely is not something to scoff at. Often in those matchups I'd have them down to <10 life and just needed a couple more turns to win. True-Name gives you that tempo for the hefty price of 3 mana. More bang for the buck IMO.

  8. #988
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Daniel, what I realized is that you very often take out FoWs where I'd keep them. Say Miracles, which is a matchup where you really need to stop CB/Jace/miracles.
    Yes you're right those spells are very bad for us, but the card disadvantage is worse. The thing about those cards is that they can't be played on turn 1 on the play, which is what we're really afraid of when we have Force of Will in the deck. Bringing in 3 Pyroblasts is what makes up for it. I know it feels weird and scary (it was for me at first) but after much testing, I believe it is correct.
    Well, this is right, and we shouldn't fear turn1 Terminus. Otoh, Force is unconditional counterspell that (unlike Daze) works even past turn3, and it's also free and thus it doesn't interfere with any part of RUG's tactic "stick the threat and protect it while riding FTW". If you're relying soleley on PBlast/Daze/Pierce in the opening turns, you may lose a lots of tempo while keeping your lands open. But yes, I do understand that turn1 threat isn't the best play when otd.
    Still, I think one should cut Dazes (at least otd) against Miracles. They'd be sitting on Top, making land drops and then they'll play unhindered by Dazes.

  9. #989

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    On the draw against Mircales, how important is it to Force a turn 1 top?

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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Star|Scream View Post
    On the draw against Mircales, how important is it to Force a turn 1 top?
    They run four. I don't think one should hymn himself because of a card that may show up again on next turn. Needle stops that. And more often than not, they won't be needing the Top that much, they are still fine with cantrips to find w/e they lack.

  11. #991

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Star|Scream View Post
    On the draw against Mircales, how important is it to Force a turn 1 top?
    Game one, I usually will. The deck is a bunch of expensive janky cards and 22 lands without it.

    Post sideboard, I rely on the Needle.

  12. #992

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Thanks for the post regarding your sideboard choices.

    I am also one of the players will do the 2x2 split between siding FoW and Daze rather then all four FoW when sideboarding. I prefer FoW because it is a hard counter like what Bed Decks mentioned. That being said I understand your reasoning for avoiding the card disadvantage this creates. Especially against the control decks where games go long. The reason I keep Force though is to ensure stopping the narrow cards that hose us (Vial, Terminus, CounterLock, and CotV->1)

    Do you find that you can reliably use Daze to fend those hosers off?

    Couple other questions...

    /**Control**/
    I was curious what you think of bringing in REB/Pyroblast vs Shardless? Still hits a lot of the same targets of Grudge, but gets Visions or Jace as well. I prefer them over Daze personally.

    Do people keep in bolts for reach against Miracles? I like to take two out usually for more impactful cards (blasts and grips)

    Krosan Grip has done some good work for me before against Lands as well. They use so many broken enchantments and painful artifacts. Definitely an up-hilll battle.

    /**Combo**/
    Your Elves strategy is interesting! I will be sure to try that approach to the matchup. Elves is usually a beating for me.

    Against Dredge I will aggressively mull into Cage. They really, really struggle to beat it.

    Again I try to keep at least two bolts for even combo matchups to help against randomness and enjoy bolting for the win after an Ad Nauseam.

    /**Aggro**/
    Would FoW be worthwhile to keep in against Vial decks if only to stop it on the T1 play of Vial? That's been my reasoning in the past...

    You are missing one SB card for the Jund matchup :)

    I will also admit that I am a player that still uses Clique over TNN in the SB for the flexibility it offers against so many of the troublesome cards (SFM, Miracles, Vial, SnT, and combo matchups). Good beater that survives Rough like was mentioned as well.

    Thanks for sharing your strategies. Hopefully this doesn't come across as nitpicking!
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  13. #993

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by cartothemax View Post
    I am also one of the players will do the 2x2 split between siding FoW and Daze rather then all four FoW when sideboarding. I prefer FoW because it is a hard counter like what Bed Decks mentioned. That being said I understand your reasoning for avoiding the card disadvantage this creates. Especially against the control decks where games go long. The reason I keep Force though is to ensure stopping the narrow cards that hose us (Vial, Terminus, CounterLock, and CotV->1)

    Do you find that you can reliably use Daze to fend those hosers off?
    I'll usually side out a Daze or two on the draw. For Chalice of the Void decks, I do keep in Force of Will because they almost always run Sol lands along side it, making it a turn 1 threat. Vial can be stopped by Ancient Grudge, Terminus by Stifle, CounterLock by tight play.

    In regards to the Miracles specifically, I don't like keeping in bad cards (Force) to make a bad matchup "better". It really doesn't. It's our "card advantage" engine (Mongoose) vs theirs (Counterbalance/Terminus/Jace). A friend of mine plays Miracles and I'm pretty sure I've ground out at least 100 games against him. I've found taking out Force to be correct. I may be wrong though, and might test this very specifically. I could see leaving 2 in to hit stuff later in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by cartothemax View Post
    I was curious what you think of bringing in REB/Pyroblast vs Shardless? Still hits a lot of the same targets of Grudge, but gets Visions or Jace as well. I prefer them over Daze personally.
    Probably pretty good I imagine. But, as I mentioned I haven't played much of the matchup so I'm not sure. It seems insane against Baleful Strix, which is a huge beating for us.

    Quote Originally Posted by cartothemax View Post
    Do people keep in bolts for reach against Miracles? I like to take two out usually for more impactful cards (blasts and grips)
    I'd say after Forked Bolt/<3 damage burn, they're the first thing to get cut. Sometimes Miracles has V.Cliques or Stoneforges in the board though. Depends on your sideboard as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by cartothemax View Post
    Your Elves strategy is interesting! I will be sure to try that approach to the matchup. Elves is usually a beating for me.
    I have another friend who plays Elves a lot, and tested with him a ton. I was getting beaten hard by them until he told me they often keep 1 landers with an accelerant, and that they are trying to get to turn 3 on turn 2 as often as possible.

    Heritage Druid is a Red Herring! Wirewood Symbiote is public enemy number one!

    Quote Originally Posted by cartothemax View Post
    Would FoW be worthwhile to keep in against Vial decks if only to stop it on the T1 play of Vial? That's been my reasoning in the past...
    No, that's what Ancient Grudge is for. It answers Vial and is card advantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by cartothemax View Post
    I will also admit that I am a player that still uses Clique over TNN in the SB for the flexibility it offers against so many of the troublesome cards (SFM, Miracles, Vial, SnT, and combo matchups). Good beater that survives Rough like was mentioned as well.
    To each his own I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by cartothemax View Post
    Thanks for sharing your strategies. Hopefully this doesn't come across as nitpicking!
    No problem! And no offense taken! I definitely want to discuss this stuff and have differing opinions. If I have to defend my argument and I'm right, cool. If not, my deck/play gets better. Win/Win.

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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Do people keep in bolts for reach against Miracles? I like to take two out usually for more impactful cards (blasts and grips)
    I cut all bolts and keep all the counterspells. Their deck is a crappy pile of durdle stuff and they might durdle how much they want, but if I stick Mongoose and counter everything hurtful, I simply don't care.
    Also, Bolt is no reach if there is CB/Top and as this combination already wrecks us, I plan to not let it resolve.

    I usualy sb like this:
    out: all burn
    in: 2 Needles (Top and JTMS, sometimes EE), 3 Pyroblasts, 2 Flusterstorm (mostly for miracles spells)
    I'd add CLique (maybe instead of Goyf), but I haven't played it in ages...

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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    just board 3-4 wastelands out vs miracles.

  16. #996

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Thanks for the feedback. Very helpful.

    I have my small local this weekend. I'll report back how it goes.
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    I don't get it, also how does that help me in Australia?

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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    I cut all bolts and keep all the counterspells. Their deck is a crappy pile of durdle stuff and they might durdle how much they want, but if I stick Mongoose and counter everything hurtful, I simply don't care.
    Also, Bolt is no reach if there is CB/Top and as this combination already wrecks us, I plan to not let it resolve.

    I usualy sb like this:
    out: all burn
    in: 2 Needles (Top and JTMS, sometimes EE), 3 Pyroblasts, 2 Flusterstorm (mostly for miracles spells)
    I'd add CLique (maybe instead of Goyf), but I haven't played it in ages...
    +1, this is my boarding plan too vs controllish decks, cbtop lock is just too annoying and i will have to fight the counter war just not to let this resolve.. stick 1 threat and counter everything.. i usually side out number of goyfs vs miracles, replacing them with either a tnn or vcliq..goyfs are the worst in this matchup..only provides us life gain (stp'ed)...i really dont protect them and waste counters only to fall to entreat/terminus/cbtop lock later on if it's still early on.
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Cutting a number of Wastelands is also quite reasonable.

  19. #999

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    hi there!
    this is the list wich i've made top8 3 times:

    http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15357&iddeck=114072

    unfortunately i've found lands in top8 again (i found him in swiss) and this time i lost!

  20. #1000

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    @B88:

    hey Claudio, don't you need thought scour in your deck to make nimble mongoose + treasure cruise work? I respect your success 3 times in a row with your RUG Delver build but I'm curious how good/bad these 2 cards work together.

    Why do you play Submerge in your sideboard, there aren't that many green decks around. what about other removal spells like dismember?

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