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Thread: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

  1. #2841

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Any reasons to diversify fetchlands besides Pithing Needle effects?

    Yes, I guess being needled out of your fetches is tough, but I think the best configuration is 4x Wooded Foothills paired with 4x Flooded Strand. Both fetches can find all the fetchables, so there is no problem there. I think it provides a strategic advantage. Being able to bluff being on a non-stifle deck turn 1 can trick an opponent into over-extending into a stifle.

    Say your on the play game one. Your hand is two Flooded Strands, a Goyf, a Stifle, and some counterspells. Itís a keepable hand, if a little slow. If you lead with Flooded Strand go, the opponent will probably put you on miracles/stoneblade. They will not expect a stifle. The same goes for foothills. The fact that foothills isnít even a blue fetch removes any thought of turn one stifle.

    Non-Stifle Decks that a turn 1 Flooded Strand or Wooded Foothills could be:
    ó Miracles
    ó Stoneblade
    ó Lands
    ó Jund
    ó Sneak and Show
    ó Punishing Maverick
    ó High Tide

    Generally, from a Delver deck, people are going to expect a turn one play. Most of the time you will have it. But, the possible equity from tricking someone into a stifled fetch out weighs the possible equity of dodging a needles fetch. Also, this situation seems to come up more often.

    So, I pose the question: Why diversify when you can hedge a possible cheeky play?

    P.S. ó I like the look of old bordered cards, and I can play all Onslaught fetches. :)

  2. #2842

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Audemus View Post
    Any reasons to diversify fetchlands besides Pithing Needle effects?
    In my opinion this outweighs the likelihood of your opponent stumbling into a stifle by reading your fetchland wrongly.
    If your opponent sees Wooded Foothills they are probably more likely to assume RUG than any other deck anyway, there aren't many people playing jund/zoo/goblins

  3. #2843

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    In my opinion this outweighs the likelihood of your opponent stumbling into a stifle by reading your fetchland wrongly.
    If your opponent sees Wooded Foothills they are probably more likely to assume RUG than any other deck anyway, there aren't many people playing jund/zoo/goblins
    Fair point.

  4. #2844
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Polluted Delta is the most ambiguous blue fetch IMO. It gives you a better chance of bluffing a Stifle than a Wooded Foothills.

    I always choose my fetches according to the bluff factor rather than playing around Pithing Needle. I've been Needled on fetches maybe 3 times in my life and it only mattered once or twice. However I have played countless games where I lost on turn 0-1 (Reanimate Grissel, SnT Emrakul, realize your up against manaless Dredge) and purposely kept playing in an attempt to misguide my opponent on my deck choice by making plays that lets my opponent think i'm on a different deck for G2. Fetching Volcanics and cantripping and never play any creatures or removal can lead to an opponent thinking you're on Sneak and Show for example. Sometimes I have a basic Island so I bring it out and let my opponent guess before they kill me or I scoop. That way you can go into G2 with an advantage.
    Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
    Get it...? Ass, u, me?

    ... ffs I was trying to be funny...

  5. #2845
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by eldub View Post
    Has anyone been playing with Dreadhorde Arcanist & Wrenn in RUG colors? I have been playing UR Delver in prep for GP ATL for about a month now to some solid success (fetching basic island T1 can be a real blessing).. Zombie Wizard has won me a ton of games I had no business being in.

    I got my hands on a few copies of Wrenn & Six and was trying to figure out the best way to convert the solid UR delver cantrip-heavy tapout shell to RUG to support Wrenn and Goyf over Young Peezy. Here's where I landed:
    Jarvis Yu streamed with similar kind of list, looked really smooth:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_cLxD8VoDQ

    He called it "no bad cards" RUG. :)

    Stifle feels so situational card to me, so definitely gonna try out this list too.
    Last edited by meite; 08-14-2019 at 07:53 AM. Reason: typo

  6. #2846
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Thanks for the heads up @meite -- this was a good watch. Played out pretty similarly to how I've been doing locally. If only I was as good as Jarvis.. ;)

    I think that video showcases how well the deck lines up against other fair strategies in general .. tons of raw card advantage and able to turn the corner relatively quickly or grind it out as appropriate. I still prefer playing more Preordain (3 or 4), since the deck really needs GY fuel to function and is lacking in proactive T1 plays with Delver as the only 1cmc threat.

    Both Pierce and Snare have under-performed since you really do want to tap out in the early game, especially when you know you're not playing against a deck that can kill you before turn 2. Watching Jarvis' VOD, there are definitely several spots in games where he was lacking in fuel for Arcanist by not quite having enough 1cmc action (preordain/chain lightning).

    This deck is quite weak to GY hate, with RIP/Leyline totally shutting off all your non-Delver/TNN threats. Having 6 total Force effects in the 75 (5+1) is a nice way to ensure you don't get punked out of games by Chalice/RiP/Leyline. If you get to enact your game plan, it's pretty hard for other decks to keep up so be mindful with your Forces.

    It's an interesting toss up between Arcanist #4 and Wrenn #3 as the final 2-drop threat. They both serve similar functions (raw CA) and act as supplementary removal. I've been very happy with 3 Goyfs and 2 TNN.

    If you play 6 or more Green cards main, you definitely want 3 Volcs and 3 Trops; if you're on 5 or less, the third Tropical Island is pretty bad. Drawing 2xTrop and not being able to play any bolts or red threats is a more likely scenario than being Wasted/Ported off a Green source with Wrenn in your deck in my experience. I see a ton of people playing 19 land in these Arcanist shells (including Jarvis w/ a Lonely Sandbar), but it seems unnecessary to me. You have so much card selection via cantrips and W6 to make land drops that you're definitely more prone to Flood than anything. In my configuration below, you fetch Volcanic first >95% of the time.

    Here's where I am at currently, putting in as many reps as I can in prep for ATL:

    Land (18)
    2x Flooded Strand
    2x Misty Rainforest
    2x Polluted Delta
    2x Scalding Tarn
    2x Tropical Island
    4x Volcanic Island
    4x Wasteland

    Sorcery (10)
    2x Chain Lightning
    4x Ponder
    4x Preordain

    Instant (17)
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Lightning Bolt
    4x Daze
    1x Force of Negation
    4x Force of Will

    Creature (13)
    4x Delver of Secrets
    4x Dreadhorde Arcanist
    3x Tarmogoyf
    2x True-Name Nemesis

    Planeswalker (2)
    2x Wrenn and Six

    Sideboard (15)
    1x Engineered Explosives
    1x Hydroblast
    1x Pyroblast
    2x Red Elemental Blast
    2x Surgical Extraction
    1x Ancient Grudge
    1x Cindervines
    2x Gilded Drake
    1x Ashiok, Dream Render
    1x Force of Negation
    1x Narset, Parter of Veils
    1x Rough / Tumble

    The SB is slanted heavily towards permanent-based removal or disruption as this deck still wants to play mostly tap-out, even against combo decks. Honestly with the amount of heavy discard (depths/storm) and Veil of Summer being around in the spell-based combo decks, I'm not playing Flusterstorm for the first time in as long as I can remember. Narset is currently filling in for Winter Orb which I had very marginal experiences with. I had Spell Pierce/Snare hanging around between MB and SB for a while but they just didn't jive with the deck's play patterns.

  7. #2847
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Three of the top25 decks at the SCG Team Open this weekend were variations on a stifle-less, Dreadhorde Arcanist RUG Delver shell.

    Noah Walker (5th): https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2190903#paper
    Hunter Nance (7th): https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2190910#paper
    Chad Harney (25th): https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2190963#paper

    Everyone played the same threats, although with some variation as to how many of of each (4x Delver, 3x W6, 2-4x Arcanist, 1-4x Goyf, 2-3x TNN).

    19 land with a Fiery Islet was the manabase of choice, with Hunter only playing 2x Trop and a basic island supporting 4 maindeck green cards.

    Cool to see folks experimenting; hopefully some discussion can pick up on this archetype now that lists are being published from good results.

  8. #2848

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Obviously i regard the opinion of Noah et al higher than mine but doesnt arcanist work better with black for discard?

  9. #2849
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Thoughtseize definitely pulls it's weight in the combo matchups, but fetching Badlands or USea early can be very awkward depending on your opening 7. In the post-board games when you know your opponent is not playing Wasteland, Trop+Badlands can cast everything, but not having UU can be a problem, especially if you're playing Pierce/Snare/Fluster.

    I think Plague Engineer is the biggest pull into Black personally. Now that we have access to 6x Force effects I don't find myself missing discard as much.

  10. #2850
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Baku_91 View Post
    Hi there, this is Baku_91

    Some comments,

    -Hexdrinker is unplayable. W6 kills it and you need to invest too much mana in a deck that does not have it.
    -Mongoose is outclassed by too many creatures these days + it's a nonbo with W6
    -I'm struggling vs elves and depths, what is the best antielves card (no splash for plague engineer) ??? Any suggestion? I'm trying ee as a versatile card but not sure if it is good enough. Vs depths, I 'm trying a couple karakas.
    ******
    I'm still impressed by my setup (3 Wrenn /3 pierce /4 Hexdrinker / 50 classic). But I have the same feeling as Qweerios. The W6 count in the deck will decrease in a midterm perspective:
    The card is strong but Delver flips less,
    it is not pitchable to FOW,
    you don't always want to see multiples.

    However, the more I thin the deck the happier I am (not to say that any late drawn Hexdrinker is a must answer otherwise you crush your opponent)

    Btw, Hexdrinker is a monster (after easy 50+ games with it since I mentioned it) I won so many games just on the back of it.

    Seems like it is starting to show results (600+ players):

    https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=22880&d=356469


    ******
    Against Elves:
    - Electrickery
    - Staticaster
    - Rough // Tumble
    - Forked bolt
    - Grafdigger's cage
    - Pithing Needle
    - Lavamancer

    ******
    Against Depths ? -> what version of Depths ?

    Ralf

  11. #2851

    [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    That list with hexdrinker doesnít run stifle which makes sense since hexdrinker wants you to tap in sorcery speed.
    It should be good with W6 since it gives you something to do with the excess lands you might end up with.
    Last edited by JackaBo; 08-30-2019 at 10:44 AM.

  12. #2852

    [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I have a question for you all. As some players have started tinkering with crop rotation in the 75 and cards to go with it in the sideboard, outside of the ususl draw land and wastelands... wouldnt elvish reclaimer be a good addition?

    3 lands in graveyard is not very hard and you got yourself a 1 mana minigoyf. Not having to tap two lands in delver is a big deal, right? And the deck could use more 1 cmc threats.

    She can also tutor for draw-land or wasteland with or without active wren. Post board she can tutor up karakas, perhabs bog... perhabs even nacle. Iím thinking something like a two-off? Thoughts?

  13. #2853
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by JackaBo View Post
    I have a question for you all. As some players have started tinkering with crop rotation in the 75 and cards to go with it in the sideboard, outside of the ususl draw land and wastelands... wouldnt elvish reclaimer be a good addition?

    3 lands in graveyard is not very hard and you got yourself a 1 mana minigoyf. Not having to tap two lands in delver is a big deal, right? And the deck could use more 1 cmc threats.

    She can also tutor for draw-land or wasteland with or without active wren. Post board she can tutor up karakas, perhabs bog... perhabs even nacle. Iím thinking something like a two-off? Thoughts?
    I don't think the deck needs more threats. The combination of Arcanist/Delver/TNN/Tarmo is enough and adding more creature will make Delver less threatening.

  14. #2854

    [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    I don't think the deck needs more threats. The combination of Arcanist/Delver/TNN/Tarmo is enough and adding more creature will make Delver less threatening.
    I meant by cutting other threats. IE goyfs

    To expand. The deck have a pretty bad curve. Your threats is 4 1 cmc, 9 2 cmc and 2 3 cmc.

    If you add sorcery speed cantrips you have 10 plays T1. That compared to 8 threats and 4 ponder from the old grixis D.

    Playing nothing on T1 is pretty bad in this deck tbh. You only have 2 one-mana-counters and 4 instant speed removal (6) compared to the old canadian with 4 one-mana-counters, stifles and bolts (12) and the tap-out grixis D (6 or 7 if you ran wild slash).

    So cutting two 2-drops for more 1-drop threats seem reasonable. Itís pretty discouraging to waste the trop if your opponent went T1 Elf of a fetch. Thatís two lands in the grave.

    Iím gonna try 2 Elves :D

  15. #2855
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by JackaBo View Post
    I meant by cutting other threats. IE goyfs

    To expand. The deck have a pretty bad curve. Your threats is 4 1 cmc, 9 2 cmc and 2 3 cmc.

    If you add sorcery speed cantrips you have 10 plays T1. That compared to 8 threats and 4 ponder from the old grixis D.

    Playing nothing on T1 is pretty bad in this deck tbh. You only have 2 one-mana-counters and 4 instant speed removal (6) compared to the old canadian with 4 one-mana-counters, stifles and bolts (12) and the tap-out grixis D (6 or 7 if you ran wild slash).

    So cutting two 2-drops for more 1-drop threats seem reasonable. Itís pretty discouraging to waste the trop if your opponent went T1 Elf of a fetch. Thatís two lands in the grave.

    Iím gonna try 2 Elves :D
    This seems fine. I will try it too !

  16. #2856

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Isnt goyf better to have for the midrange and stompy matchups? Angler and reality smasher will rejoice, I think.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

  17. #2857

    [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    Isnt goyf better to have for the midrange and stompy matchups? Angler and reality smasher will rejoice, I think.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
    That is probably true.

  18. #2858
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Hi all, if any of you know me, I usually play either UW blade or MUD. I'm not a happy delver player during the grixis era, and promised that the only delver I'd ever play is RUG Threshold. If it ever got good again. Lol. And here we are. I'm interested in confering on deck choices ahead of ew. First I'll post my current build, then I'll post my questions. Happy to discuss and defend mybdeck choices as they are.

    Deck: Legacy Temur Delver w 6 9-8-19.dec

    Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

    Creatures:11
    4 Delver of Secrets
    2 Dreadhorde Arcanist
    3 Tarmogoyf
    2 True-Name Nemesis

    Sorceries:7
    1 Chain Lightning
    4 Ponder
    2 Preordain

    Instants:20
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Lightning Bolt
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Spell Snare
    4 Daze
    1 Force of Negation
    1 Dead // Gone
    4 Force of Will

    Enchantments:1
    1 Sylvan Library

    Others:3
    3 Wrenn and Six

    Lands:18
    1 Fiery Islet
    2 Flooded Strand
    1 Island
    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Polluted Delta
    1 Scalding Tarn
    3 Tropical Island
    2 Volcanic Island
    4 Wasteland

    Sideboard:15
    1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
    1 Sulfur Elemental
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Damping Sphere
    1 Blazing Volley
    1 Shattering Spree
    1 Shenanigans
    1 Hydroblast
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Vapor Snag
    1 Veil of Summer
    1 Echoing Truth

    First question: what's the consensus on arcanist vs a stifle package? I love some stifle and miss it horribly playing arcanist. Who likes which?
    We speak for no one, we hear no one, we see no one

  19. #2859
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    The sb is in no way locked in. I do feel like it needs a second sphere and a second surgical. Need to figure out what to cut for each.
    We speak for no one, we hear no one, we see no one

  20. #2860

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    The consensus is pretty much not to play stifle anymore. It doesn't fit with the new cards and style of the deck (which is much more powerful than before). Stifle might get you some free wins occasionally, but it's not worth it in the grand scheme of things. It's too often a semi dead card, and even where it's good, the deck doesn't have to extend the early game that much now that it has much more raw power to go toe to toe with midrange and control in the late game.

    A few more observations from testing:
    - I didn't like arcanist initially and refused to test it for the longest time, but it's a house. Just make sure you're playing the fifth bolt along it to clear out those tarmogoyfs.

    - although it was initially hastily dismissed because of its anti tempo, w6 vulnerable nature, hexdrinker might actually have some merit, as both tournament results and personal testing show. I wouldn't play more than 1 copy though since you don't usually want multiples. Currently slotting it in place of the fourth tarmo

    With w6 filling our hand with extra lands in the grinder matchups and our slightly higher mana curve, it seems
    Jtms is replacing winter orb as the new anti-control bomb of choice. Can't go wrong with that one, I guess...

    - the crop package revolutionizes many matchups, giving us outs in situations where we would previously auto scoop. Depths, show and tell, lands and reanimator players will get blown out a few times before they start playing more carefully and conservatively (which is good for us no matter how you slice it)

    EDIT: looking at the playoff results, the real issue seems to be a looming Wrenn and Six ban... Variety in large tournament results has always been the main criteria for bans, and Rug seems to be taking over legacy, plus the card is also present in other lists like 4c control, lands, and aggro loam. 5/8 top 8 decks are playing it, and I don't see the trend reversing anytime soon
    Last edited by Luca Grease; 09-10-2019 at 06:18 AM.

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