[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

[Kanti]

I think the answer is yes...go for it then...

Quoting your own quote? Kids, don’t do drugs.

editing with something useful: Anyone say that Saito list? Bomat Courier seems to be the real deal. Kind of opened my eyes since I always thought of RUG to be the Mongoose deck, and Bromat to be a Grixis choice.

[Jonathan Alexander]

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 True-Name Nemesis

1 Sylvan Library

2 Abrade
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Ponder

//Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Winter Orb
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gemstone Caverns

[l33twash0r]

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 True-Name Nemesis

1 Sylvan Library

2 Abrade
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Ponder

//Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Winter Orb
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gemstone Caverns

Gemstone Caverns?

[Turboninja]

Interesting list to say the least!

#1 No more Goyfs
#2 Gemstone Caverns (probably for turn 1 counterspells OTD)
#3 Going knee deep in Winter Orbs
#4 Abrade MD to beat D&T I presume
#5 So many counterspells 3 Spell Snares, 3 Spell Pierces, 2 Flusterstorm
#6 Not much removal, though without DRS it's probably fine

Great list Jonathan! I'll give it a try. I was already wearing down on Goyfs for the library and gave a real thought to MD Abrade.

[Darkgobs]

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 True-Name Nemesis

1 Sylvan Library

2 Abrade
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Ponder

//Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Winter Orb
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gemstone Caverns

Wow, I know the meta shifted to slower games, but only 10 creatures, two of which are TNN, really caught my eyes.
I am also wondering about the 4 volcanics: why not go for a basic Island? I know about the 2 Abrade MD, but still...

[kombatkiwi]

UB Shadow possibly needs addressing.
Shadow + Angler is a lot of 1 mana unboltable creatures that outsize mongoose.
It's also a push + angler deck, which is annoying.
No spell snare targets either.

Maybe there's a certain way to play against it that makes the matchup even, but it doesn't seem very favourable on the surface.

No idea what to make of JAs list, too many weird things going on
If DS is popular I don't think I want to play 3 snare 1 counterspell and 2 abrade maindeck, but maindeck TNN could be good
I don't think Gemstone Caverns is remotely playable either

[bigwerdz]

When drs got banned I cut the seal of fire/tarfire from my list as I expected more goyf decks in general. I think we may need to play at least one more to get goyf bigger then anglers? I’m guessing we’re on the get them low and bolt them out plan? Maybe tarfire and chain lightning as removal 5 and 6 and a dismember in the board?

[Kanti]

UB Shadow possibly needs addressing.
Shadow + Angler is a lot of 1 mana unboltable creatures that outsize mongoose.
It's also a push + angler deck, which is annoying.
No spell snare targets either.

Maybe there's a certain way to play against it that makes the matchup even, but it doesn't seem very favourable on the surface.

No idea what to make of JAs list, too many weird things going on
If DS is popular I don't think I want to play 3 snare 1 counterspell and 2 abrade maindeck, but maindeck TNN could be good
I don't think Gemstone Caverns is remotely playable either

Against Angler bounce can be an option. Submerge, Man-o-War, etc. Obviously not cards this deck wants to be playing maindeck, but a CipT creature that bounces things can't be THAT bad in a tempo deck. Man-o-War has the bonus of being really quite good agianst Show and Tell and Depths as well, and looks quite decent against a flipped Delver. Replacing Mongoose with Gnarlwood Dryad or Narnam Renegade is another option.

[Jonathan Alexander]

The list is supposed to beat Jace + Snapcaster decks, Tomb + Chalice decks, Show and Tell decks and Reanimator first and foremost. There's some serious splash damage done to Death & Taxes because of the Orbs, True-Name and infinite artifact removal. Same for Lands. You should also be able to beat Aggro Loam and Maverick through tight play. Most other matchups are pretty bad but you can still win if you play well and your opponents don't. Notably, this includes the mirror. This list is really bad for the mirror, but i have always played lists that were bad in the mirror.

Gemstone Caverns?

Quoting myself: "This card is not a joke, i played it, and it really pulled its weight. The way i like to think about this card is as extra copies of Force of Will for the Ancient Tomb + Chalice and combo matchups (most notably Reanimator). I played one copy and was pleasantly surprised.

"If you’re skeptical about the cost, keep in mind that you’re giving up one card in order to have a land on the table before your opponent starts their first turn. This is the same cost as chosing to play first.

"I’m not sure i’d be willing to play a second one, you’ll have to figure this out for yourself."

Interesting list to say the least!

#1 No more Goyfs
#3 Going knee deep in Winter Orbs
#4 Abrade MD to beat D&T I presume
#5 So many counterspells 3 Spell Snares, 3 Spell Pierces, 2 Flusterstorm
#6 Not much removal, though without DRS it's probably fine

#1 Goyf is a more reasonable card to have if you don't expect to face many Swords to Plowshares.
#3 Winter Orb is pretty good against both Miracles and Grixis Control, so that's neat.
#4 Abrade is more for Chalices than D&T, but the overlap is convenient.
#5 Yeah i don't like running out of countermagic against combo decks.
#6 This list is criminally low on removal, but that's mostly because it ignores all the real creature decks. You can adjust to your own metagame accordingly.

Wow, I know the meta shifted to slower games, but only 10 creatures, two of which are TNN, really caught my eyes.
I am also wondering about the 4 volcanics: why not go for a basic Island? I know about the 2 Abrade MD, but still...

I've been playing 10 creatures main since 2012, only occasionally did i have more. It's reasonable to have more creatures in the 75 if your metagame calls for a more diverse line up. 4 Volcanics because i ran out of lands in Orb games against control decks a few too many times. Basic Island sucks, it doesn't cast enough spells. You never want to have that on board. Generally you want to go either Volc, Volc, Trop or Volc, Trop, Volc and Island really messes with that.

UB Shadow possibly needs addressing.
Shadow + Angler is a lot of 1 mana unboltable creatures that outsize mongoose.
It's also a push + angler deck, which is annoying.
No spell snare targets either.

Maybe there's a certain way to play against it that makes the matchup even, but it doesn't seem very favourable on the surface.

If DS is popular I don't think I want to play 3 snare 1 counterspell and 2 abrade maindeck, but maindeck TNN could be good

Agree.

When drs got banned I cut the seal of fire/tarfire from my list as I expected more goyf decks in general. I think we may need to play at least one more to get goyf bigger then anglers? I’m guessing we’re on the get them low and bolt them out plan? Maybe tarfire and chain lightning as removal 5 and 6 and a dismember in the board?

I played around with a Goyf list that had Tarfire + Seal main. Pretty sure that the way to go if you play Goyfs.

Replacing Mongoose with Gnarlwood Dryad or Narnam Renegade is another option.

No.

[kombatkiwi]

3-0 Local tournament tonight
2-1 vs Grixis Control
2-0 vs DNT
2-0 vs Hangarback Stompy / Men of Steel / Whatever

RUG 54 (4 Tarmo)
2 Fire // Ice
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Abrade

SB
2 Surgical
2 Grudge
2 TNN
2 Pyroblast
1 Loam
1 Ring
1 Orb
1 Flusterstorm
1 Counterspell
1 HONDEN OF INFINITE RAAAAAAGE
1 Forked Bolt

The SB was put together in a rush because I went to that shop on the way home from modern to pick up some cards and it turned out they had a legacy event on.
I like every sideboard card except for 1 Counterspell 1 Forked Bolt and 1 Flusterstorm (not that these 3 are bad but I'm just less sure about them).
I like 1 maindeck Abrade, I don't think I want a 2nd one because I think it's important for the removal to be able to burn face
Honden is still insane and Loam is also really good. Honden + Orb won one of the Grixis games and Honden + Loam destroyed DNT

I never drew fire/ice except in one of the DNT games where I could have got a 2 for 1 on small Thalia + Revoker, but had to use it to Incinerate 3/2 Thalia to let the goose loose.
The idea behind Fire/Ice is that Shadow deal a lot of damage to themselves so by tapping 1 big creature it hopefully shouldn't be too hard to create a window where you can attack through and kill them. I don't know how successful this plan will be because I haven't tested the matchup though. Then because you have 7 removals main, 2 of which are Twin Bolts, you probably don't need to play extra removal in the SB beyond the 1 Barbarian Ring (and the Honden) which opens up some SB space for e.g. Cage, 2nd Flusterstorm, 3rd Pyroblast, 2nd Winter Orb, etc (cut forked bolt)

It obviously didn't hurt in these matchups not having the 2 Seal of Fire that I used to play for making Goyf big but with the number of Anglers in the format dropping with Grixis falling off after the DRS ban it might not be warranted anymore. Vs Eldrazi you can still get 5/6 by killing one of the opponent's artifacts.

I would happily run this list back after putting some more thought into what those last 3 SB slots are supposed to be

I agree that Gemstone Cavern is fine when you get the effect off (ie. I don't think the cost of activating it is too high) but for this to happen
a) You have to open with it
b) You have to be on the draw

So in the context of reanimator, you could be playing 1 Leyline of the Void in the SB. If you don't draw either Caverns or Leyline in your opening hand they're both bricks (if you're unhappy with Basic Island I can't imagine you think Wastes is playable) but instead of just stealing the die roll Leyline basically wins the game AND if you're on the play you don't have to board it out

Of course Leyline doesn't let you Pierce a Chalice turn 0 but your list already has 2 Grudge and 2 Abrade which is way more artifact kill than most people are playing

I don't think Leyline is playable in this deck which is why I don't think Cavern is either
Every other successful deck which has played Caverns (usually in modern) has many more ways to utilize colorless mana
If you're playing in a meta where Charbelcher is everywhere then I guess it makes a lot of sense but generally I don't think this card is worth the space

[GoldenCid]

2 Fire // Ice

Once upon a time i run Chain lightning there an it was fair.

Thoughts?

Then it was converted into forked bolt

[kombatkiwi]

Disappointing result today, the only silver lining was I won one of those Jace coins as a door prize

0-2 LED Dredge
He just did Dredge things both games and I never saw any SB cards in game 2 even after a mull

2-0 Miracles
G1 He makes a medium entreat but can't attack because he will die to geese on the swingback. After a few turns of the stalled board he finds another entreat and makes a huge angel swarm but I topdeck the bolt.
G2 Honden killed 2 Cliques and 1 Snap, after Surgicaling the snap target I see that he has only 1 CJ to out the Honden and his only winconditions are 2 Entreat and 1 Lyra so I just play protect the Honden. I force CJ on the Honden and play TNN, then he finds Lyra; when I Bolt him EOT he realises he's on the ropes and tries to Swords his own Lyra but I Flusterstorm it and untap and kill him.

1-2 Elves
G1 He does Elves things and after grinding through my interaction for a bit he just taps 4 mana through Heritage into NO into Hoof; he activates Quirion to untap one of his Elves and swing for exact damage (16 or so)
G2 I have too much removal for his creatures and Flusterstorm for his Glimpse, he just dies to Goyf and TNN without ever really doing anything (fire/ice does some work)
G3 I'm in a pretty good spot after using Fire/Ice again, I have Cage + Goyf + Barbarian Ring vs 2 Heritage, Quirion, and Dryad Arbor with hellbent opponent, so all I need to do is Barbarian Ring the Quirion and my Goyf can start swinging. Unfortunately he topdecks his (presumably 1-of) Scavenging Ooze so I lose.

1-2 DNT
I think I misplay game 1 by not Stifling one of his Mother activations
I win G2 with a fast double Delver draw backed up by Bolt + Fire to the face just as he's about to stabilize
G3 I counter the first removal on my Delver but I can't protect it twice and then he destroys all my lands

1-2 SNT
Very weird games
I think I drew quite badly and got punished by my Delvers taking ages to flip.
Because I don't have too many SB cards for this matchup I kept all my creatures in for the post-board games and I drew a lot of threat-heavy hands (this is not a matchup where you want to draw 2-3 Goyf)

4 Delver
4 Goyf
4 Goose

4 BS
4 FOW
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Bolt

2 Fire/Ice
1 Abrade
2 Pierce
1 Snare

8 Fetchlands
3 Volc
3 Trop
4 Wasteland

SB
2 Grudge
2 TNN
2 Surgical
2 Pyroblast
1 Cage
1 Honden of Infinite Rage
1 Winter Orb
1 Loam
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Flusterstorm
1 Seal of Fire

I was confident with all the list going in except for the 1 Seal of Fire, which I just slotted in randomly after not putting much thought into it. After the tournament I think I would make major changes.

In the post-DRS post-Shadow world I don't think it's correct to play Tarmogoyf anymore. Grixis Delver was the top deck and it had the following qualities:
- Gurmag was the biggest creature (Bigger than DRS, YP, Delver), so you could trump your opponents whole threat base if you made your Goyf 5/6
- Tarmogoyf didn't die to any of their removal (they only play Bolts)

Now Shadow has supplanted Grixis Delver as the #1 deck (or at least the #1 tempo deck):
- Having a 5/6 Goyf doesn't make you king of the battlefield anymore because Shadow can easily be 6/6 or bigger
- All their black removal kills goyf easily (Push or Snuff Out or Dismember)

It seems like such a small thing (1-2 decks in the meta changing) but it took away one of the major reasons to play Tarmogoyf and replaced it with a reason to not play it

Not only is Shadow now a thing RUG has to deal with but also the evolution of Grixis Delver (e.g. the Sukenik list which made it to Eternal Weekend Japan top 8) does play 3 Angler but also has 3 TNNs 2 Push and 2 Bitterblossom maindeck, which also incentivises playing Mandrills

I also agree with the Mandrills fans that being able to cast it for 1 generally makes it better than Tarmogoyf vs combo decks.
You do sacrifice quite a lot of equity cutting Tarmogoyf if your opponent's deck has Reality Smasher in it but I think this is just a trade-off you have to accept.

I still like my mix of spells and want to try Sean's Predict tech so I would start with a list like this:

(List from above)
Main
-4 Tarmogoyf
+2 Mandrills
+1 TNN
+1 Predict

SB
-1 TNN
-1 Seal of Fire
+1 Compost
+1 Roast

Compost seems dope in a world full of Baleful Strix and Street Wraith but I have never tried the card before so it might be wrong way to approach things.
I think this 75 wants 1 Roast/Dismember to cover the loss of Tarmogoyf but again this is pretty speculative

Overall I think RUG is a very niche deck now. I generally agree with the thoughts of Owen etc who just don't find the deck to be very good, Stifle is too awkward/weak, etc. Having 4 Goose in the list imo makes the deck way better against UW control than all other Delver versions, but the power level of UB Shadow is just so much higher that I don't think this is a good enough reason to play RUG in an open meta

[Ralf]

UB shadows is a nice deck but it also has its drawbacks.
Having a shadow 5/5 on the board means that you are at 8 life.

Burn (just to mention one deck) is usually happier to face a UB than a RUG.

The meta might need to adjust to it.

Anyway, I feel like Fire // Ice is a very fine card at the moment.

I'm playing the following setup at the moment:

4 Delver
4 Tarmo
2 Mandrills
1 Clique

1 Become immense
2 Fire // Ice
2 Pierce
2 snare

Also, I'm trying "Unsubstantiate" to see if the card could fit in the 75. I really like the tempo it gives you (either by clearing the way to one of your creature or "countering" every spell including uncounterable ones). CDA vs tempo gain...

[kombatkiwi]

I feel like Mongoose is the only reason to play this deck, I don't understand why you would want to play a list like that

[rlesko]

Not sure if this is Ralf or not, but someone made a GP Top 8 with a creature configuration like that one.

https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12671&d=273417&f=LE

[BKclassic]

I feel like Mongoose is the only reason to play this deck, I don't understand why you would want to play a list like that

Nimble Mongoose is only better against Swords to Plowshares, and there are some corner cases like Maze of Ith, Jace, and Jitte activation. Sylvan Library, Winter Orb and Abrade/Ancient Grudge can make up for these shortcomings. Mandrills is a much faster clock and is better against Chalice of the Void, Young Pyromancer, Baleful Strix, TNN, Leovold, combo and swarm strategies. I think Nimble Mongoose's heyday has unfortunately expired, but Delver/Tarmogoyf/Mandrills/TNN is a good beatdown package.

[Ralf]

@ rlesko: It was not me. But I was there and also playing RUG (4 mongoose though at the time).

This was back to 2016 and I mentioned it earlier here including the creature configuration.

At the time I was curious about his choice and tested it.

It is working fine and maybe should get a closer look from the community before dismissing it (not to mention the top 8 at a GP).

[GoldenCid]

I feel like Mongoose is the only reason to play this deck, I don't understand why you would want to play a list like that

I feel so...

[alvoi]

Hello everyone!

Does somebody know the list Tomoharu Saito is playing at GP Richmond? He is 6-2 and i think he is playing Bomat Couriers

[say no to scurvy]

Hello everyone!

Does somebody know the list Tomoharu Saito is playing at GP Richmond? He is 6-2 and i think he is playing Bomat Couriers

https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/c...eck_that_reid/