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Thread: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

  1. #2421
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    biglongjohns's Avatar
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Would anyone be willing to shed some light on sideboarding for some of the more Lands-focused archetypes? Specifically Lands, 4c Loam, and Depths. Here's what I've got so far and it's incomplete and probably somewhat wrong.

    LANDS
    +2 Surgical Extraction
    +2 Submerge
    +1 Spell Pierce
    +1 Snapcaster Mage
    -1 Forked Bolt
    -1 Dismember
    -1 Preordain
    -1 True-Name Nemesis
    -2 ???

    4C LOAM
    +2 Submerge
    +1 Abrade
    +1 Ancient Grudge
    +1 True-Name Nemesis
    +1 Spell Pierce
    -4 Stifle?
    -2 Nimble Mongoose

    DEPTHS
    +2 Submerge
    +2 Surgical Extraction

    EDIT: Assuming MTB's latest list
    Last edited by biglongjohns; 11-15-2017 at 12:07 PM.

  2. #2422

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by biglongjohns View Post
    Would anyone be willing to shed some light on sideboarding for some of the more Lands-focused archetypes? Specifically Lands, 4c Loam, and Depths. Here's what I've got so far and it's incomplete and probably somewhat wrong.

    LANDS
    +2 Surgical Extraction
    +2 Submerge
    +1 Spell Pierce
    +1 Snapcaster Mage
    -1 Forked Bolt
    -1 Dismember
    -1 Preordain
    -1 True-Name Nemesis
    -2 ???

    4C LOAM
    +2 Submerge
    +1 Abrade
    +1 Ancient Grudge
    +1 True-Name Nemesis
    +1 Spell Pierce
    -4 Stifle?
    -2 Nimble Mongoose

    DEPTHS
    +2 Submerge
    +2 Surgical Extraction

    EDIT: Assuming MTB's latest list
    I would board like the following:

    Lands:
    +2 Flusterstorm
    +1 Spell Pierce
    +2 Surgical
    +1 Snapcaster Mage
    (+2 Submerge)
    +1 Abrade
    -1 Forked Bolt
    -1 Dismember
    -1 TNN
    -combination of Bolt / Stifle

    The exact number of Bolt/Stifle depends if I see Tracker of him G2. Abrade can do double duty here as it can remove the chalice and the trackers. Submerge is not that great here as they can play around it pretty easily and good lands players will anticipate it. So I wouldn't bring it if I expect them to play around it.


    4C Loam
    +2 Submerge
    +1 Ancient Grudge
    +1 Abrade
    +1 Spell Pierce
    +1 TNN
    +1 Sylvan
    -3 Stifle
    -4 Delver

    Except for Knight all their creatures are weenies which fall fast to Mungoos or Mandrills so you want to prevent them from getting a knight under all circumstances. With the "shroud-plan" you blank a huge part of their deck (Pfire&decay partly swords if they have them in the sb). Focus on landing a thread and don't let them get/keep their knight.


    Depth
    +2 Submerge
    +2 Surgical
    +2 Fluster
    +1 Pierce
    -1 TNN
    -1 Forked Bolt (Sorcery speed is an issue here)
    -1 Mungoose
    -1 Daze
    -1 Dismember
    -1 Stifle
    -1 Preordain

    You wan't the fast threads here so you can take out 1 TNN & 1 Goose. Stifle is here much more potent than against the other "land-based" decks as stifling a hexmage is a good way to deal with one of their wincons. The additional Pierces and Flusters are for countering crop rotations and sylvan scrying. In case they play the chalice list I would go with Grudge and Abrade over 2 Stifles.

    Regards,
    Marius

  3. #2423
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    biglongjohns's Avatar
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Once again, thank you so much! That should about wrap-up my sideboard map. If anyone wants to know how to sideboard with this deck, you can scan back from now through the last 5 pages and figure out pretty much every matchup.

  4. #2424

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    About stifle: I would argue that stifle is one of the best mainboard cards against lands. I usually use it to protect my wastelands from theirs. Sometimes you also have to protect your own lands when you're landlight. You can basically timewalk them this way which is awesome.
    When they have stuff to deal with your own wasteland on board you can also just leave wasteland in hand, then stifle the stage and waste it afterwards.
    Daze is way worse imo, I'd also keep in all the bolts for Tracker and to grow mongoose. That's especially effective when you have a soft counter for a potential crop rotation or a surgical for the combo piece you target.

    About Submerge: In my experience this card is really good against 4c-loam, mediocre against lands and abysmal against BG depths. The last one rarely plays forests but Blooming Marshes, Spirit Guides and Petals, lands will look to wasteland/crops away their one forest before going for the combo.

    About the threats: I like cutting the delvers against lands, it makes their p-fires much worse and also means that you can safe your surgicals for more important combo pieces. They usually don't have too much stuff that can deal with Mandrills (mazes) and nothing that deals with mongoose besides the occasional drop of honey, meaning you still have 8 threats.
    Against BG depths you need the fast clock, 4c-loam plays so many different removal spells you just want everything you have that can deal damage.

    So what are MVP sideboard cards?

    - Imo the best card against lands is Pithing Needle. That card is also decent against BG depths (they have decays though), but bad against 4c-loam (Knight is still big, they usually don't play stage-depths, liliana is still a threat due to a decay on the needle).
    - Submerge is best against 4c-loam, decent against lands and bad against BG depths
    - Surgical is best against lands, decent against 4c-loam and bad against BG depths.

    So yeah, David Long was right when he switched from lands to BG depths because there was so much land hate, the hexmage combo is just really strong against decks that don't play STP or discard in addition to their wastelands.

  5. #2425

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    so heres a question, what do you side in vs. Grixis Delver and Grixis Pyromancer?

  6. #2426

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa91 View Post
    About stifle: I would argue that stifle is one of the best mainboard cards against lands. I usually use it to protect my wastelands from theirs. Sometimes you also have to protect your own lands when you're landlight. You can basically timewalk them this way which is awesome.
    When they have stuff to deal with your own wasteland on board you can also just leave wasteland in hand, then stifle the stage and waste it afterwards.
    Daze is way worse imo, I'd also keep in all the bolts for Tracker and to grow mongoose. That's especially effective when you have a soft counter for a potential crop rotation or a surgical for the combo piece you target.
    ....
    About the threats: I like cutting the delvers against lands, it makes their p-fires much worse and also means that you can safe your surgicals for more important combo pieces. They usually don't have too much stuff that can deal with Mandrills (mazes) and nothing that deals with mongoose besides the occasional drop of honey, meaning you still have 8 threats.
    Against BG depths you need the fast clock, 4c-loam plays so many different removal spells you just want everything you have that can deal damage.
    Sadly most Stifle targets are not really great options against lands and as you even want to side out Delvers Stifle will rarely be better than bolt. Besides that a lot of Lands players side out some Pfires as they only handle Delvers.
    Stifling Maze -> You can connect one times (Delver 3/Mandrills 4 damage) - Basicly Bolt
    Stifling Stage -> Buys you one turn again you can connect one time - Basicly Bolt again
    Stifling waste your waste -> they will never do that if they don't have loam or multiple Wastelands going so your close to beeing depermanised or close to getting comboed anyway
    I think it's possible to side out the Delvers but only if you board AT LEAST 2 Winter orb. This allows you to play a longer game and you don't need to push damage that hard.
    I aggree with your plan against Depth but I think you don't want to tap 3 mana for TNN as you need to hold up mana for Stifle/Pierce/Fluster.
    Against 4C Loam you don't need to be that aggressive like against Depth so siding out Delver is fine as Delver pretty much dies on the spot (3-4 Decays / 4 Fire maybe Swords). So if you side out Delvers the opponent has even more air in their deck (additional to their 26 mana sources).


    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa91 View Post
    About Submerge: In my experience this card is really good against 4c-loam, mediocre against lands and abysmal against BG depths. The last one rarely plays forests but Blooming Marshes, Spirit Guides and Petals, lands will look to wasteland/crops away their one forest before going for the combo.
    I agree on the 4c loam Part. They play a lot of forests and Knights are a great target for Submerge. I don't think it makes the cut against Lands as they can play around it pretty easily and have no problem with rebuilding the token or removing all your islands before making it.
    I just checked TC decks for the most common version of Depth and it seems like the standard version would not run blooming marsh (http://tcdecks.net/archetype.php?arc...&format=Legacy 1 of the first 5 lists did run blooming marshs although one of the four other lists was pretty light on forests). If you notice your opponent is on a list without bayous you shouldn't side them in I think but I would decide that after G1.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa91 View Post
    So what are MVP sideboard cards?

    - Imo the best card against lands is Pithing Needle. That card is also decent against BG depths (they have decays though), but bad against 4c-loam (Knight is still big, they usually don't play stage-depths, liliana is still a threat due to a decay on the needle).
    - Submerge is best against 4c-loam, decent against lands and bad against BG depths
    - Surgical is best against lands, decent against 4c-loam and bad against BG depths.
    I agree on most of this except for surgical. If you hit against BG Depth it's great and you probably won on the spot and it's not too hard to get one depth to their yard. I don't like it against 4c Loam as there is no real key card you can target and the loam lock is not that threatening as they don't have explorations to speed up.
    As good techs I would add
    Winter Orb - Great against Lands and decent against 4c Loam (decay is an issue here) allows you to play a more controling game
    Tsabos Web - Very narrow helps against lands and Taxes but is not worth it in a normal meta.


    Quote Originally Posted by MiraclesWizard View Post
    so heres a question, what do you side in vs. Grixis Delver and Grixis Pyromancer?
    Grixis Delver
    +1 TNN (more non removeable creatures)
    +2 REB (counters TNN/Delver/counterwars)
    +2 Fluster (strict upgrade to Pierce)
    +1 Abrade (additional removal some lists got 1 Jitte in the board)
    -2 Stifle
    -1 Force (otp)
    -2 Spell üierce
    -1 Daze (otd)

    Try to cut them off black, don't counter removal on delver, the green threads are all bigger than theirs except for Angler (which you should avoid to stick). REB and Daze are great against TNN while REB can sometimes be used to kill Delver its main purpose is TNN or counterwars against Angler.

    Grixis Control
    +2 REB
    +1 Izzet Staticaster
    +1 Sylvan Libary
    +1 Abrade
    +1 Grudge
    +1 Snapcaster
    -4 Delver
    -2 Stifle
    -1 Preordain
    I would hesitate to board out Pirece although it's not that great in that matchup it is able to handle Bloodmoon which is very important. REB, Staticaster, Grudge and Abrade help you against the Strixes while Staticaster is also a nice out to Pyromancer armys. Delver is pretty bad here as they rely on Bolt as their pirmary removal.



    Regards,
    Marius

  7. #2427

    [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I'll probably look to responding more comprehensively at some stage, but against Turbo Depths I always board in artifact destruction. You can tag a Map and Chalice/Thorn also are brought against us. But most importantly they are leaning on Pithing Needles to defend against our most potent tool at disrupting them - Wasteland. I have blown out Depths many times by instant-speed breaking Needle and then Wastelanding for the full blowout.

    I agree with Marius on Surgical.

    Also Dead // Gone is fun for randomly cheesing out a Marit Lage >

  8. #2428

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Marius, you bring so much knowledge to this thread. All reasoning sounds so well thought out. Thanks for sharing!

  9. #2429

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/...ug-renaissance

    Hello all! I wrote a thing that may be relevant ;D

  10. #2430

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    pumped to see a great primer / write up on the resurgence of RUG.

  11. #2431

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChemicalBurns View Post
    http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/...ug-renaissance

    Hello all! I wrote a thing that may be relevant ;D
    Thank you very much Sean!

    Its a great write-up and a pleasure to read.

    Regards
    Marius

  12. #2432
    Tomorrow belongs to those who prepare for it today.
    Hrothgar's Avatar
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Very good stuff!
    This improve the rug community!
    Thanks a lot!

  13. #2433
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChemicalBurns View Post
    http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/...ug-renaissance

    Hello all! I wrote a thing that may be relevant ;D
    Wow, this is awesome! I love the amount of depth, and, clearly you put a ton of effort into this article. A great read, wonderful content, super well done!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilkin View Post
    I tap all 5 of my lands on my turn. He's like....OMG not Shriekmaw. I land Batterskull. He's like. Ok sure. LOL, not very often someone is more happy to see Batterskull then a Shriekmaw.
    ______________________________________
    The patient Brainstormer always wins.

  14. #2434

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    In this post: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...d-an-interview

    It is mentioned:" Staticaster gets around Mother of Runes "

    Can someone familiar with this interaction explain it?

    Awesome posts recently! thanks for the great participation.

  15. #2435

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by ptahetep View Post
    In this post: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...d-an-interview

    It is mentioned:" Staticaster gets around Mother of Runes "

    Can someone familiar with this interaction explain it?

    Awesome posts recently! thanks for the great participation.
    Flash it in at the end of the opponent's turn and ping, forcing mom to tap. Untap and ping again on your turn when mom is tapped.

  16. #2436

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by koten View Post
    Flash it in at the end of the opponent's turn and ping, forcing mom to tap. Untap and ping again on your turn when mom is tapped.
    I should have figure that out! thanks!

  17. #2437

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    anyone ever consider running Dack Fayden in RUG? +1 helps feed threshold and goyfs, -2 takes obnoxious artifacts?

    just thinking out loud, its stupid just tell me and I'll pipe down!

    WiZ

  18. #2438
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Played in a larger event this past weekend, going about 50/50 in matches, and came up with a few more questions after playing this deck for the first time in a tournament.

    Assuming the MTB list, how do we board against the following decks?

    Portent Miracles
    UR Delver
    The Mirror
    BUG Midrange with TNN

    Against new Miracles I feel that Stifle is likely bad since they play so many basics and there are not a ton of other applications. Pyroblast and Library is obviously good. Do we want both Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm or are the Pierces just upgraded? Snapcaster likely comes in? Since they are not taxing our mana and recurring countermagic seems pretty good here.

    Against UR Delver I think I sided out Stifles as well since they played several basics and there weren't many other applications as well. It's probably a bad matchup, but maybe I'd bring in Pyroblasts, Flusterstorms, Abrade? Dismember seems very bad here.

    As for the Mirror, I have no idea how to play this matchup. I didn't play the mirror at this event, but I would like to be prepared for it and not really sure what cards to prioritize over others.

    Lastly, there is a fair amount of BUG decks at my LGS. I know the SB plan vs BUG Delver is as follows +1 True-Name Nemesis +2 Submerge -2 Spell Pierce -1 Stifle/Force of Will...but how does this change when facing the more midrange BUG decks with TNN and a couple basic lands? I guess it could be played similar to the Czech Pile matchup?

    Thanks in advance for any help y'all can offer!

  19. #2439

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by MiraclesWizard View Post
    anyone ever consider running Dack Fayden in RUG? +1 helps feed threshold and goyfs, -2 takes obnoxious artifacts?

    just thinking out loud, its stupid just tell me and I'll pipe down!

    WiZ
    I would never play that card in rug delver. Theres no real way to abuse the filtering (save for 0-1 loams in the 75), and typically there isn't a surplus of cards in our hand. You can't "steal" a batterskull for example, unless you also have 5 mana to equip it to a creature you control (and they don't have 3 mana to bounce it). The most problematic artifact (Chalice for 1) doesn't do anything with a change of ownership. I would play thought scour if I wanted a way to dump cards in my graveyard. If I wanted filtering, I'd probably play izzet charm, but I don't think that card is very good either.

    Also I don't like playing 3 drops @ sorcery speed, the exception being TNN.

  20. #2440

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by biglongjohns View Post
    Played in a larger event this past weekend, going about 50/50 in matches, and came up with a few more questions after playing this deck for the first time in a tournament.

    Assuming the MTB list, how do we board against the following decks?

    Portent Miracles
    UR Delver
    The Mirror
    BUG Midrange with TNN

    Against new Miracles I feel that Stifle is likely bad since they play so many basics and there are not a ton of other applications. Pyroblast and Library is obviously good. Do we want both Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm or are the Pierces just upgraded? Snapcaster likely comes in? Since they are not taxing our mana and recurring countermagic seems pretty good here.

    Against UR Delver I think I sided out Stifles as well since they played several basics and there weren't many other applications as well. It's probably a bad matchup, but maybe I'd bring in Pyroblasts, Flusterstorms, Abrade? Dismember seems very bad here.

    As for the Mirror, I have no idea how to play this matchup. I didn't play the mirror at this event, but I would like to be prepared for it and not really sure what cards to prioritize over others.

    Lastly, there is a fair amount of BUG decks at my LGS. I know the SB plan vs BUG Delver is as follows +1 True-Name Nemesis +2 Submerge -2 Spell Pierce -1 Stifle/Force of Will...but how does this change when facing the more midrange BUG decks with TNN and a couple basic lands? I guess it could be played similar to the Czech Pile matchup?

    Thanks in advance for any help y'all can offer!
    Pierce takes jace and Stifle the miracle trigger. You're probably not countering neither swords nor terminus so I'm not sure that flusterstorm is an uppgrade.

    Not sure that everyone agree on this but in the mirror i find surgical on tropical or volcanic after wasteland being devastating.

    When you face a deck with lots of basics, dont you rather board out wasteland than Stifle?

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