[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

[rlesko]

I think the deck doesn't really need fatal push. Even if the effect was printed on color, not sure it would be played since dismember does everything push does (and more!) but at the cost of 4 life instead of revolt. On that topic, I think people will realize its harder to trigger revolt in real life than in theory. UBx decks may certainly pick it up as a way to constrain their abrupt decays less, but as previously stated dismember is still probably the better card in a vacuum. Regardless, still picking up a foil playset just to be safe

[Whitefaces]

I think the deck doesn't really need fatal push. Even if the effect was printed on color, not sure it would be played since dismember does everything push does (and more!) but at the cost of 4 life instead of revolt. On that topic, I think people will realize its harder to trigger revolt in real life than in theory. UBx decks may certainly pick it up as a way to constrain their abrupt decays less, but as previously stated dismember is still probably the better card in a vacuum. Regardless, still picking up a foil playset just to be safe

Fatal Push is almost certainly a downgrade for the deck compared the Lightning Bolt, but it's a card that replaces that slot. The appeal of moving to BUG colours is Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay. It's not about being on colour, it's if these colours are the best fit for this strategy now.

[rlesko]

Fatal Push is almost certainly a downgrade for the deck compared the Lightning Bolt, but it's a card that replaces that slot. The appeal of moving to BUG colours is Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay. It's not about being on colour, it's if these colours are the best fit for this strategy now.

It depends on what you consider to be "this strategy", then. I don't think any other combination of colors can run as efficiently or effectively with only 1 mana like canadian can (and execute the tempo game plan). But what I was leaning towards with my other point about dismember being superior to fatal push is that, BUG decks already have an efficient 1 mana removal spell in dismember (disfigure, too), with the capability to gain life (DRS) and actually pay black mana for the card. So, I don't think fatal push is tipping the scales for BUG decks over other colors. I honestly think push might be best as a sideboard card, but that is certainly discussion left for a different thread.

I like to think about things in terms of number of dead cards in your deck, too. If you have 3-4 decays and 3-4 push, thats 6-8 dead cards against combo decks. so you definitely run the risk of some extremely clunky draws.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Randomly weighing in without quoting because I'm lazy.

The main benefit of Lightning Bolt is not the ability to go through random stuff but to kill creatures and "time walk" against non-creature decks. For this reason, I consider Canadian the best Delver deck against combo before sideboarding. rlesko addressed dead cards vs. combo decks, and yes, that is an issue. You do get the benefit of running discard (after sideboarding) and Deathrite Shaman, which at least counts for something against Storm. I think it's an issue against Show and Tell decks though because you don't get Pyroblast.

Abrupt Decay is extremely overrated. I think it's bad removal that BG/x decks have to play because they don't get Pyroblast. When I was playing burg with Dig legal, I was actually boarding them out vs. Miracles. The removal split I'm looking to try out first is 4 Push / 2 Dismember, with Decays in the sideboard. I might cut one copy of Push to maindeck one Decay, but I don't think you need to because of Snare.

The real draw to black is Painful Truths. The card is really good in this deck. I also like being able to save deckbuilding space merging the Pyroblast / Ancient Grudge slot into Decay, although it might just be too bad.

A random aside on Team America that might or might not be relevant here:

Before GP Prague last year, I was playing both Canadian and Team America a lot and I was trying to figure out which one to play at the GP. I kept statistics on all the games I had with either deck and while my overall match win rate was higher with Team America, I had a better win rate with Canadian in every single matchup I played more than twice over the course of ~200 matches.

[Jonathan Alexander]

So I got to try out Dark Thresh today.


List:

//Creature
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose

//Instant
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
1 Dismember
3 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

//Land
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

//Sorcery
2 Painful Truths
4 Ponder

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 3 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Duress

I got weird matchups, so take everything with a grain of salt.

-Deathrite vs. Goyf is not a huge difference, especially with Fatal Push in the format.

-Mongoose is better than Goyf for sure.

-The deck's creature base is really flexible and smooth, which is cool. You can reasonably go down to seven creatures against removal heavy decks. Boarding out Mongooses entirely is totally fine as well, leaving you with 11 evasive threats.

-I don't think I've killed a single creature with Push that would not have died to Bolt.

-I did not get to play against combo, but having discard against Miracles is cool.

-Not having Pyroblast stinks. I don't think Decays do enough to remedy this. I would not mind an extra piece of countermagic, maybe a second Counterspell.

-Dread of Night is sweet, but I'm not sure how good it is vs. Mentor yet.

-I kinda want to draw Orb more often.

-Painful Truths is still amazing. I got to draw three turn two on the play with Daze & Force backup once, that was sick.

-I don't think I'm opposed to another land or maybe Life from the Loam. I considered my typical Loam + Ghost Quarter package, but I dismissed it to include both discard and Dread of Night.

-The removal split seems correct given the colour limitations.

Overall, I often felt I was playing a worse version of Canadian, but there is merit to playing this list. I think this deck beats at least the other three-colour Delver decks, and it's probably the best version against UR as well.

[wcm8]

I agree that Pyroblast is amazing; if there was an equivalent spell in BUG it would be played for sure. I also love Lightning Bolt and realize that it's a big component of what makes RUG a viable deck, and in fact when I was playing the deck I was also running 3-4 copies of Chain Lightning. The idea was to assess whether you could ignore the opponent's creatures and just save up a few burn spells to end the game. Black can't do this.

However, before dismissing Dark Thresh entirely as a worse version of Canadian, I would urge you to face off against more decks playing Tarmogoyf (or other biggies that die to Push but not Bolt) and also Miracles. There, you'll get a better sense of the advantages provided by Black that you simply wouldn't get with Red. I'd also suggest finding room for the 4th copy of Deathrite Shaman, as he is just sooo good for a whole boatload of reasons and works really well in tandem with Winter Orb.

In a vacuum, Red is better since the Black cards are mostly inherently reactive instead of potentially proactive. But on a long enough timeline, you'll get to see that there are times when Black is able to bail you out of situations that would otherwise be game over for Red.

[Whitefaces]

I'm trying Dark Thresh online at the moment too with the list below. While Push has been strong, the lack of Bolt and Pyroblast is so much more noticeable than I'd imagined. DRS and Mongoose are a lot worse together than I'd anticipated too. As you can see I don't have Truths, Snare (I thought Decay would shore up this slot) or Counterspell in the deck, which I think are all great, I'll give them a try. The TNNs in the SB seem good too, will definitely add that angle if I can get some soon.

[Jonathan Alexander]

However, before dismissing Dark Thresh entirely as a worse version of Canadian, I would urge you to face off against more decks playing Tarmogoyf (or other biggies that die to Push but not Bolt) and also Miracles. There, you'll get a better sense of the advantages provided by Black that you simply wouldn't get with Red.

I will definitely still toy around with the deck a little, I'm just not super happy with its current state. It's definitely not as good against Miracles, but I'm not sure if it's bad in the matchup. Leaning not good enough with the current setup.

I'd also suggest finding room for the 4th copy of Deathrite Shaman, as he is just sooo good for a whole boatload of reasons and works really well in tandem with Winter Orb.

I do have the fourth Deathrite Shaman. And I actually disagree about Deathrite and Orb, I think they don't work well together. The difference between untapping one and two mana sources is negligible, but if you want a clock, you either untap no lands or need a second creature.

In a vacuum, Red is better since the Black cards are mostly inherently reactive instead of potentially proactive. But on a long enough timeline, you'll get to see that there are times when Black is able to bail you out of situations that would otherwise be game over for Red.

That is true, but the red version is pretty good at preventing those from coming up. For example, it's cool to not be dead if a Counterbalance randomly resolves, but looking down at a Decay when your opponent has Jace is not the greatest feeling (had to Force, Pierce, Daze a Jace under Orb in the tournament I played). Again, I'm not saying black doesn't have upsides, but so far it has mostly felt inferior. I do think it's better set up in most creature matchups. I haven't quite figured out Death & Taxes and Elves yet, but I'm sure I can find good plans for those.

I'm trying Dark Thresh online at the moment too with the list below. While Push has been strong, the lack of Bolt and Pyroblast is so much more noticeable than I'd imagined. DRS and Mongoose are a lot worse together than I'd anticipated too. As you can see I don't have Truths, Snare (I thought Decay would shore up this slot) or Counterspell in the deck, which I think are all great, I'll give them a try. The TNNs in the SB seem good too, will definitely add that angle if I can get some soon.

Did you just start with HJ's list and go from there? True-Names are pretty much necessary I think, you want them in so many matchups. In general, I really, really like this deck's creature base and I'm considering just trying out my old black splash Canadian list with Deathrites over Goyfs.

[Whitefaces]

Did you just start with HJ's list and go from there? True-Names are pretty much necessary I think, you want them in so many matchups. In general, I really, really like this deck's creature base and I'm considering just trying out my old black splash Canadian list with Deathrites over Goyfs.

No, this is just what I put together the other day, I've seen his lists though and should take some notes from them.

Agree on True-Names, it's a great SB strategy. I'll get some when I can.

I don't think the mana would work if you replace Goyf with DRS unfortunately, you want Sea as your leading dual then which would lead to 4c.

I also feel like the deck wants a sweeper or two to fill the spot of Rough, not sure there are many good options in BUG though weirdly.

[ironclad8690]

Has anyone else thought to revive the old-style burg lists with Nimble, DRS, Delver, Maybe 1-2 Goyf or TNN? You can have your cake and eat it too with bolts decay Pyroblast and discard. The only downside is that you have to run a Taiga or badlands.

[ChemicalBurns]

To add to the conversation, here's my Dark Thresh list:

Creatures: (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 True-Name Nemesis

Non-Creature Spells: (29)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push

Lands: (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard: (15)
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm
1 Painful Truths
1 Dismember
2 Winter Orb
1 Pithing Needle
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction

4-0ed my local beating 4c Loam, Reanimator, Miracles and Sneak & Show (had 4th Decay over Truths in SB) and 4-1ed my first League, beating 4c Loam (destroyed a giant Ooze by cantripping deep for Push), Shardless twice, lost to Elves (still hard for BUG, apparently, though as Jonathan said, I'm sure there's a good plan for it) and beat Food Chain.

I've hated the Pierces in the main but Snares have looked unreasonable due to having both Push/Decay covering those slots, but maybe I'm wrong and Snare is still just damn great. The Counterspell has been excellent, and the singleton True-Name main has bailed me out of heaps of tough situations.

I think I'll be trying Jonathan's removal suite of 3 Push/1 Dismember/2 Decay next, with the 3rd Decay in the board, as Decay has always felt just fine but has always been pretty mana inefficient. I've also been always happy to hit the one-of Painful Truths post-board and may look to pushing this number upwards to two, maybe finding room for a singleton main.

In my last League match I had to face down a curve of Goyf, Goyf, Goyf x2 from BUG Delver, but Push, Decay and finally Submerge all let my Delvers and Goose swing through for victory and win the race, something notably impossible for RUG with only access to Bolt. The sea of random BUG decks I seem to be facing makes Push look more and more reasonable, but I may just be biased.

Goose is also still one of the best creatures in Legacy and I haven't found the dissynergy with DRS too notable overall.

@Whitefaces I've got Marsh Casualties as my Rough // Tumble replacement, with added bonuses of being helpful against True-Name. But it's still pretty meh.

[Pilhas]

If the most interesting cards we get from black are PTruths/Shaman + TS/AD couldnt we be running a 4 color decklist?
Access to Shaman should smooth mana out, and from green we would have 4 goose + shaman and from red 4 bolts(Main). Maybe upping the land count to 19.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Uh. I was typing up a post but it was getting way too long, so I decided to just make it one of my blog posts. I'll sort my thoughts, maybe try out a few more things and have it out on Friday. I'll post here once it's out.

Until then, some quick thoughts:

-I think full-on burg is bad. The mana is too awkward too often in my experience. Maybe I just want to do things with the decks that it can't though.

-I talked to Kai yesterday and we discussed splashing for Pyroblasts in the sideboard. The change I proposed was -2 Dread -3 Duress +1 Counterspell +3 Pyroblast +1 Volcanic Island. I haven't tried it, but I'm not opposed to it. Maybe this way you do get the best of both worlds.

-I'm not convinced you need a sweeper. Against opposing True-Names, you can still just race. Yesterday, I played against Team America (Goyfless, by the way, which I have seen several people trying, so that's really good for regular Canadian) and my opponent had a True-Name on the board but still lost because I had Deathrite + Mongoose. Tribal decks I don't respect as a metagame presence right now, but the scales might have tipped and Elves is a deck to plan for at this point. I'm not investing two cards solely for a deck I am 5% to face though.

[Whitefaces]

I've hated the Pierces in the main but Snares have looked unreasonable due to having both Push/Decay covering those slots, but maybe I'm wrong and Snare is still just damn great. The Counterspell has been excellent, and the singleton True-Name main has bailed me out of heaps of tough situations.

I think I'll be trying Jonathan's removal suite of 3 Push/1 Dismember/2 Decay next, with the 3rd Decay in the board, as Decay has always felt just fine but has always been pretty mana inefficient. I've also been always happy to hit the one-of Painful Truths post-board and may look to pushing this number upwards to two, maybe finding room for a singleton main.

In my last League match I had to face down a curve of Goyf, Goyf, Goyf x2 from BUG Delver, but Push, Decay and finally Submerge all let my Delvers and Goose swing through for victory and win the race, something notably impossible for RUG with only access to Bolt. The sea of random BUG decks I seem to be facing makes Push look more and more reasonable, but I may just be biased.

Goose is also still one of the best creatures in Legacy and I haven't found the dissynergy with DRS too notable overall.

@Whitefaces I've got Marsh Casualties as my Rough // Tumble replacement, with added bonuses of being helpful against True-Name. But it's still pretty meh.

I've disliked the Pierces in the small amount I've played so far too, I can see one, pushing two, but three was overkill for sure. I had the exact same reservations for Snares, still not convinced they're what the deck wants. Saying that, there are plenty of things Snare hits that push and decay don't solve (Snapcaster mage for example)

The suite of 4 push, 2 decay, 1 dismember and another decay in the SB has felt good for me. I can see a Push being moved to the sb though, or maybe just cut.

Maybe I've just had awkward hands, but I've definitely felt a big tension between the shaman and goose.

Uh. I was typing up a post but it was getting way too long, so I decided to just make it one of my blog posts. I'll sort my thoughts, maybe try out a few more things and have it out on Friday. I'll post here once it's out.

Until then, some quick thoughts:

-I think full-on burg is bad. The mana is too awkward too often in my experience. Maybe I just want to do things with the decks that it can't though. Most important is needing 3 different duals vs 2 to operate.

-I talked to Kai yesterday and we discussed splashing for Pyroblasts in the sideboard. The change I proposed was -2 Dread -3 Duress +1 Counterspell +3 Pyroblast +1 Volcanic Island. I haven't tried it, but I'm not opposed to it. Maybe this way you do get the best of both worlds.

-I'm not convinced you need a sweeper. Against opposing True-Names, you can still just race. Yesterday, I played against Team America (Goyfless, by the way, which I have seen several people trying, so that's really good for regular Canadian) and my opponent had a True-Name on the board but still lost because I had Deathrite + Mongoose. Tribal decks I don't respect as a metagame presence right now, but the scales might have tipped and Elves is a deck to plan for at this point. I'm not investing two cards solely for a deck I am 5% to face though.

Nice, I look forward to reading it.

I think 4c can be great, but not in the tempo style of thresh, it's much more midrange these days. The difference of being able to operate off 2 vs 3 duals is pretty huge too. But another thing I've found awkward with DRS in thresh is that he makes you play out additional lands. The B needed to drain each turn while disrupting is no joke.

I've had this exact same thought about Pyroblast last night! I'll try that out too. The Red splash could give us access to Sudden Demise too.

[AdventuresWithTarmo]

I'm kind of newer to legacy, but what does everyone think about narnam renegade? I know you're not looking to trade with your opponent, but it seems like a creature that doesn't feel intimidated by an angler, for rug delver.

[Gloubi]

With regards to the "Dark Thresh" lists in this page. Aren't they just subsets of BUG delver, that have Mongoose and Stifle?
They don't seem to belong to this thread.

[mextremartini]

So I got to try out Dark Thresh today.


List:

//Creature
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose

//Instant
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
1 Dismember
3 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

//Land
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

//Sorcery
2 Painful Truths
4 Ponder

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 3 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Duress

Perhaps you should play 1 Green Sun Zenith 5th mongoose in matches where you take all other creatures out.
Looking forward for your blog posts. Cheers.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I think Dark Thresh discussion belongs in this thread. It plays out very similarly to Canadian and with Push in the format, this might just be the way to play Threshold. There's a lot of experimentation going on with the deck, but as long as it's Mongoose + Stifle + Wasteland, I think it belongs in this thread.

Either way, I wrote down some boarding plans for my list: Google Doc

I have to admit I am not yet certain what to do in each matchup and I'm not super happy with the sideboard. I'm mostly cycling through the threat-base and Deathrite / Stifle splits. If you want plans for any other matchups, let me know, this is easy enough to edit.

[Pilhas]

Without having tested yet that version, it seems to be losing more thing than winning with the swap from red to black. Still not a fan of Shaman+decay when your objective is to max tempo your opponent. Also in the sideboard, losing access to pyroblast seems really punishing.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Oh, I am by no means convinced, I just think there is potential so it's worth looking into.