[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

[wcm8]

I've only tested Jon's list a few times, but so far I really liked it. Hooting Mandrills has a few advantages over Tarmogoyf:
1. Dodges Fatal Push and Abrupt Decay
2. Can still deal damage through a True-Name Nemesis or Mother of Runes
3. Generally only costs 1 mana to cast, allowing you to keep up mana to cast your control spells
4. Against combo, presents a faster clock (typically Tarmo is no bigger than a 3/4)
5. More likely to resolve through Counterbalance
6. Dodges Engineered Explosives, Spell Snare and other CMC-reliant things
7. Can Delve away cards to shrink opposing Goyfs and/or limit your opponent's DRS targets

While there is some obvious dis-synergy with Nimble Mongoose, the deck generally has no problem maintaining a timely threat. Plus you can dredge Life from the Loam to quickly fill up your graveyard. Mandrills goes great along with Mongoose and TNN as a mostly removal-proof threat. I really like this new approach to RUG, and it's proof that Delver of Secrets is NOT an essential component.

[Jonathan Alexander]

How has Mandrill's been working out (Especially in a list with 5 threshold cards)?

Mandrils have been great and Delve hasn't been an issue (=

I suggest you try them out for yourself, even alongside Delver.

By the way, more videos:

#thedailywars #2 — February Legacy Challenge Round Two vs. Miracles

#thedailywars #3 — February Legacy Challenge Round Three vs. Belcher

[wcm8]

I think there are two valid ways to approach playing RUG tempo:

1) Play a hyper-aggressive list with Delver of Secrets, Nimble Mongoose and probably Tarmogoyf. In addition to your 4 Lightning Bolts, play additional copies of burn, e.g. Chain Lightning and possible some copies of Price of Progress in the sideboard. Consider also playing Thought Scour: besides helping achieve early Threshold and turning Mongoose into a legitimate early threat, it can also be used to disrupt an opponent's top-decks. The idea with a list like this is to swing in a few times with early threats, and use burn spells to end the game later regardless of how messy the board state is. A list like this might or might not even run Stifle, instead just focusing on countering must-answer spells that could disrupt your angle of attack.

2) Play a list like Jonathan Alexander's, which attempts to Blank the majority of an opponent's removal spells with a carefully selected threat mix, and also keep the opponent in a perpetual early-game state via Stifle, Loam-Lock and Winter Orb. Against the current metagame, this approach seems ideal, though I suppose control decks could learn to adapt to this approach somewhat by playing more sweepers.

I think that lists that try to do both roles are not going to be quite as successful going forward.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I'm not sure I agree. Playing Canadian as an aggro deck is something I have always considered wrong and in fact that mentality is what I think has been holding the deck back for so long. As you pointed out, casting things like Stifle is not really what you want to be doing in that kind of deck, but the flexibility that Stifle offers (that almost all spells in the deck offer, in fact) is what makes this Canadian Threshold so good. Almost all of the spells can be used both offensively and defensively. You can use the cards to ride an efficient beater to victory or you can abuse the deck's mana denial package to play a control game based around virtual card advantage.

I also think Delver of Secrets still has a place in lists like mine; blanking the opponents' removal isn't great when they know that it's blanked. Having Delver in the 75 does make some matchups better (notably Miracles G1, but also the combo matchups and Eldrazi) and allows you to play some interesting RPS-type games during sideboarding.

Tarmogoyf is another story, I think that card's just dead now.

Edit: Not saying that I think aggressive Delver decks aren't good, I just agree with your notion that this isn't really the right shell and I think you'd want to take it further than just cutting Stifle; UR Delver is a very good deck and I just don't see a reason to dilute that with an extra colour just to run Nimble Mongoose, which isn't really a great fit anyway.

[mextremartini]

Edit: Not saying that I think aggressive Delver decks aren't good, I just agree with your notion that this isn't really the right shell and I think you'd want to take it further than just cutting Stifle; UR Delver is a very good deck and I just don't see a reason to dilute that with an extra colour just to run Nimble Mongoose, which isn't really a great fit anyway.

Aggro RUG might gotten better now with 4 Narnam Renegate, Delver and Hooting Mandrils tho.

[kombatkiwi]

I scrubbed out of the main event at GP Brisbane so hit up the side events.
Combined record of 7-2 over the 2 tournaments.

2-0 Miracles
2-0 Dredge
1-0 Infect
1-0 Deathblade
1-1 Elves
0-1 Death and Taxes

Main:
4 Delver
4 Goose
3 Goyf

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force
4 Stifle
4 Bolt
3 Snare
1 Dismember
1 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
1 Seal of Fire

4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic
3 Tropical
8 Fetchlands

SB
3 Winter Orb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyroblast
2 Rough/Tumble (In the 2nd event I played 1 Rough/Tumble, 1 Forked Bolt)
1 Spell Pierce
2 True-Name Nemesis

Happy with the list, I probably wouldn't change anything. I might want another DNT/Elves card in the SB but I don't know what to cut for it.

[AdventuresWithTarmo]

I kind of like the idea that goyf is dead now. Decks like RUG can evolve. Creatures needing utility or ability to dodge removal (and be 1 mana too) is important. I may have a playset, but seeing decks like Johns get me excited. It's not only new and fresh, but it's a really good idea.

Less resources spent protecting a threat, more to disrupt the opponent with. That deck is sick. Decks like grixis delver follow the same idea sort of. Young Pyromancer is a resilient beater.

[rlesko]

I'll always have a bias for Goyf, but I can't help but think cutting him is an overreaction to the new printings. While the number of fatal pushes will certainly be nonzero going forward, you have to think it will come at the cost of running less abrupt decays, and lets not forget, we can always counter push. I understand the role that he and cards like true name nemesis serve and think probably a split like 2/2 or 3/2 in the 75 is correct. I know Jon's latest list was playing 2/2 before trying wholesale changes (like cutting delvers, playing loam main, etc. I think this is great work its just separate from the point I'm trying to make right now) and the top 32 list at GP Louisville had the same split.

If we are really worried about push one thing we can do besides running push-proof creatures is adjust our counterspells. Maybe flusterstorm / spell pierce, disrupt or dispel become cards to play to protect your goyfs and delvers from bolts, pushes, and swords. Also really wacky things like seal of removal to save your guy or bounce their fatty. I am really excited about the amount of innovation that people are putting into this deck, though. Long live the goyf!

[KobeBryan]

I'll always have a bias for Goyf, but I can't help but think cutting him is an overreaction to the new printings. While the number of fatal pushes will certainly be nonzero going forward, you have to think it will come at the cost of running less abrupt decays, and lets not forget, we can always counter push. I understand the role that he and cards like true name nemesis serve and think probably a split like 2/2 or 3/2 in the 75 is correct. I know Jon's latest list was playing 2/2 before trying wholesale changes (like cutting delvers, playing loam main, etc. I think this is great work its just separate from the point I'm trying to make right now) and the top 32 list at GP Louisville had the same split.

If we are really worried about push one thing we can do besides running push-proof creatures is adjust our counterspells. Maybe flusterstorm / spell pierce, disrupt or dispel become cards to play to protect your goyfs and delvers from bolts, pushes, and swords. Also really wacky things like seal of removal to save your guy or bounce their fatty. I am really excited about the amount of innovation that people are putting into this deck, though. Long live the goyf!

I dont' understand why people are going nuts over a removal printing.

All decks already have removal. Decks are not cutting other cards to add in 8 removals in a deck. The number of removals in a deck always remain 4-5 in MD then 2 more in the side.

This has always been true and people would not be running 16 removals all of a sudden. The removal may be better, but what is to say that the older removals before this printing couldn't handle its business.

[rlesko]

I dont' understand why people are going nuts over a removal printing.

All decks already have removal. Decks are not cutting other cards to add in 8 removals in a deck. The number of removals in a deck always remain 4-5 in MD then 2 more in the side.

This has always been true and people would not be running 16 removals all of a sudden. The removal may be better, but what is to say that the older removals before this printing couldn't handle its business.

Wish I could like this post

[Jonathan Alexander]

Aggro RUG might gotten better now with 4 Narnam Renegate, Delver and Hooting Mandrils tho.

I don't think those cards are better than the Prowess threats. Swiftspear is so strong.

kombatkiwi, nice run. Death & Taxes seems to be a problem matchup, when I'm done with the Legacy Challenge videos I'll check if I have some replays worth covering. I think your list is well set up for the matchup as is.


As for the Goyf thing, it's not all about Fatal Push entering the format, although I have to say that better removal does really change a lot. Look at Black decks before the printing of Decay for example, they always had really bad removal. Remember when people played Smother? That's how terrible removal used to be.

The main reason my 2016 list had Tarmogoyf was to be able to board out Nimble Mongoose vs. Eldrazi and still have a reasonable creature base. Honestly, I should've experimented with Madrills or more True-Names over Tarmogoyfs earlier, although I have to say that I liked the "board out Delver, run Seal of Fire" approach vs. Grixis a lot.

[rlesko]

As for the Goyf thing, it's not all about Fatal Push entering the format, although I have to say that better removal does really change a lot. Look at Black decks before the printing of Decay for example, they always had really bad removal. Remember when people played Smother? That's how terrible removal used to be.

The main reason my 2016 list had Tarmogoyf was to be able to board out Nimble Mongoose vs. Eldrazi and still have a reasonable creature base. Honestly, I should've experimented with Madrills or more True-Names over Tarmogoyfs earlier, although I have to say that I liked the "board out Delver, run Seal of Fire" approach vs. Grixis a lot.

Lets dissect this a little further. In the current meta, "black decks" constitute UBx delver (grixis and BUG), shardless BUG, and maybe jund?
-Shardless is not cutting decays for push, as the deck is super tight and decay is an infinitely better cascade. push is purely a disfigure replacement (a better one, no doubt). But an upgrade of a two off in the sideboard is not invalidating goyf
-Grixis delver will play 0-2 as compliments to its 4 lightning bolts as the meta dictates. definitely a small boon for them as tarmogoyf was one of the most difficult cards for them to deal with pre board. But no real reason to fear this card as our mana denial and soft countermagic strategies are at their best against a deck like this
-bug delver is the only real question mark. its possible they play as many as 4 fatal pushes and only 2 decays since they finally have a reasonable 1 mana removal spell. relying on 2 mana spells when trying to play dazes and stifles was always awkward.
-Jund will not play this card, and is not popular at all anyways

Goyf still has a lot to offer us, I think. I will continue to play him

[Jonathan Alexander]

It's not about Goyf being bad because everyone will play Push (which, as you pointed out, is not the case). It's that I'd much rather have Mandrils or True-Name than Goyf if my opponent has Push, Decay, True-Name, Mother of Runes, Spell Snare etc. in their deck. As I said, I think we should've experimented with this much earlier, same as Winter Orb was implemented about five years too late. Makes me wonder what other cards are out there that we should be playing.

[kombatkiwi]

It's not about Goyf being bad because everyone will play Push (which, as you pointed out, is not the case). It's that I'd much rather have Mandrils or True-Name than Goyf if my opponent has Push, Decay, True-Name, Mother of Runes, Spell Snare etc. in their deck. As I said, I think we should've experimented with this much earlier, same as Winter Orb was implemented about five years too late. Makes me wonder what other cards are out there that we should be playing.

I also really like the idea of Mandrills vs Elves because it prevents them from stalling the game out by bounce-blocking with Quirion Ranger / Symbiote (and they can't Decay it either). I'm not sure how it fits in a list with Mongoose though and being only a 4/4 against Eldrazi/Angler.

[mextremartini]

Another reasoning that I've been thinking a lot is : what if instead of playing all untargetable, resilient creatures like mongoose and TNN, we could play only targetable but stronger, faster creatures.

While the first group of creatures are strong, they are also quite slow for my senses. So I would recommend going for the slit of 4 Delver, 4 Hooting Mandrils, 3 Young Pyro 1 Vendillion Clique and 4 Probe 2 Dismember in the flex slots.
Perhaps it too much phyrexian mana in there, numbers arent perfect, but the ability to trample over, fly over or go wide seems very interesting to me.

And why play over grixis then ?
I think they play too many creatures and are less interactive than this deck. Also Hooting Mandrils is VERY powerful magic card, deals a lot of damage for 1 mana and tramples over their creatures.
The lack of shaman is debatable , but they consume graveyard and mana resources throughout the game ...

[Ralf]

It's not about Goyf being bad because everyone will play Push (which, as you pointed out, is not the case). It's that I'd much rather have Mandrils or True-Name than Goyf if my opponent has Push, Decay, True-Name, Mother of Runes, Spell Snare etc. in their deck. As I said, I think we should've experimented with this much earlier, same as Winter Orb was implemented about five years too late. Makes me wonder what other cards are out there that we should be playing.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12671&d=273417&f=LE

Well I guess it is, somehow, in the landscape for a while.
I'm playing a tweaked version ever since.

[rlesko]

It's not about Goyf being bad because everyone will play Push (which, as you pointed out, is not the case). It's that I'd much rather have Mandrils or True-Name than Goyf if my opponent has Push, Decay, True-Name, Mother of Runes, Spell Snare etc. in their deck. As I said, I think we should've experimented with this much earlier, same as Winter Orb was implemented about five years too late. Makes me wonder what other cards are out there that we should be playing.

Ok, I see what you mean now. I guess it was just the timing of everything that made me attribute all this talk to fatal push.

Its funny, right around the time you started making winter orb popular again I randomly stumbled across some MTG history articles such as the history of miracle gro. Winter orb used to be a 4 of in these lists, and I definitely wondered why that fell out of favor. I definitely think we can learn from the past and try to incorporate old cards that have fallen out of favor. The card I'm most interested in is Predict. Whether we need additional cards to run along side it, or how many we should run I am not sure.

[Guest2511]

Ok, I see what you mean now. I guess it was just the timing of everything that made me attribute all this talk to fatal push.

Its funny, right around the time you started making winter orb popular again I randomly stumbled across some MTG history articles such as the history of miracle gro. Winter orb used to be a 4 of in these lists, and I definitely wondered why that fell out of favor. I definitely think we can learn from the past and try to incorporate old cards that have fallen out of favor. The card I'm most interested in is Predict. Whether we need additional cards to run along side it, or how many we should run I am not sure.

I think people forgot Winter Orb because when people started messing with Canadian, around the time Tarmogoyf was printed, the meta had a lot of "aggro" decks, first Goblins then a bit later Merfolk and Zoo. The control deck, which Winter Orb would punish, was Landstill, but it was far from the popularity and power that Miracles currently has.

[blablub]

Hey Guys,
short question: Do you bring in Winter Orbs against the Reid Duke-BUG Deck? Obv. its nice if they wanna deploy 3 and 4 drops but i'm a little bit scared about their 8 Manadorks. In Gerneral what would you bring in with Dark Thresh and whats your overall Strategie in this MU? Haven't played against that deck but i want to be prepared :) Thank you guys :)

[rlesko]

I think people forgot Winter Orb because when people started messing with Canadian, around the time Tarmogoyf was printed, the meta had a lot of "aggro" decks, first Goblins then a bit later Merfolk and Zoo. The control deck, which Winter Orb would punish, was Landstill, but it was far from the popularity and power that Miracles currently has.

Good to know. I wasn't playing legacy then so thanks for the history lesson :)

Hey Guys,
short question: Do you bring in Winter Orbs against the Reid Duke-BUG Deck? Obv. its nice if they wanna deploy 3 and 4 drops but i'm a little bit scared about their 8 Manadorks. In Gerneral what would you bring in with Dark Thresh and whats your overall Strategie in this MU? Haven't played against that deck but i want to be prepared :) Thank you guys :)

Pyroblast seems insanely good against them. What is your 75? I would probably do something like

-4 forces / dazes (play / draw)
-3 spell snare (only seems to be 3 targets total in their 75, they have all 3/4 drops)
-2 goyf (only if you can bring true name in)
+2 TNN
+3 pyroblast
+2/3 winter orb
+2 submerge

With the intention of bolting their 1 drops, pyroblasting / dazing their 3 drops, then dropping an orb on them after that.

EDIT: i'm still back and forth on bringing in ancient grudge. If going by reid duke's list I would think they are cutting their forces for 2nd jitte, truths, 2x submerge. Maybe 1 grudge gets sided in since if they land a jitte it would be nice to have some outs to that.