[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

[KobeBryan]

KobeBryan, while I agree with you, I still think we should counter StP and Terminus if it's possible and esp. if it's done for cheap, lets say for the price of Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm. Every creature dead, every turn lost without dmg dealt, this all counts. A prolonged game is not what we want, and while I love to grind out the games, it's not because of a fondness in a purposeless grinding; it has its own meaning, which is a protection of my gameplan and (to some extent) of my creatures.
In opening turns when they are developing (and they're slower than us), I'll easily Pierce the StP - namely if it targets Aberration, an evasive creature that cannot be hosed by RiP -, because this Pierce may buy another two or more turns when I'm dealing damage.
Same is true for Terminus, as it's quite an expensive spell speaking of setup. If you'll counter or at least Stifle it, they might not get another chance of playing it again, at least not soon enough to save them; and then there are those situations when you overextended (for any reasonable matter, e.g. you temporarily cut them of white and felt save, or had either too good or too bad hand that asked for an insanely fast race, or RiP forced you to play two Mongooses to have clock, or emergency Clique joined turn1 Delver, w/e) and then they are about to kill a pair of your critters.
But esp. with an eight bolts build I wouldn't bother to save my creatures that often, unless the opponent is too high on a life total and the burn alone won't win me the game.

I mean: while it's reasonable to not tkae care of your creatures, and the Miracles players have plethora of removal, sometimes it is wise to protect your minions, esp. if it doesn't cost you much and very much especially if it doesn't endager yourself. While it's reasonable to Daze their StP targeting your sole creature with your hand full of blue stuff (and no Bolts in sight), it is not really wise to do the same for the price of FoW when the only other cards you hold have red borders and the whole StP was a bait to get the CB through.

Again, I may be wrong.


edit: Lemnear, thanks a lot for your input!

i dont' think i would fight over the plow early on. The counterbalance lock is TOO much for this deck, especially if they float a 1 somewhere on top (they have LOTS of 1s). You need whatever you can save up to stop that from going into the board state. Often times, an early creature removal is bait for you to waste counters. Miracle players do not worry about their life total early on. They can go down to as low as 4 before really caring.

You really need destructive revelry to come in to fight off that counterbalance lock or a RIP.

[KobeBryan]

Oops hahaha didn't realize that's what you're talking about.
@ShiftyKapree If you want to add Sulfur Elemental I would shave a submerge and maybe a needle for something else. My experience with needle (which was brief so this might be biased) is like cage against elves. Sure it shuts off their green sun's and NO, but you can never really tell when it's good. I'm not saying it's bad, but being able to tell when needle is useful to me seems hard. I mean sure you can name something, but maybe that card never comes up or they decay it or Venser it back after getting counterbalance lock out. I just feel like needle could always have been something better that had left more of an impact on the board.

RUG Delver (8 Bolt variant)
53 core rug (- 1 goyf)
1 Sylvan Library
4 Chain Lightning
2 Spell pierce

Sideboard
3 Pyroblast
2 flusterstorm
1 spell pierce
1 vendilion clique
2 grafdigger's cage
1 destructive revelry
1 artifact mutation
1 sulfur elemental
1 rough
1 sulfuric vortex
1 price of progress

Now then here's my report for the recent 70 man tournament I played in.
Round 1 Jund 2/1 || 1/0
Game 1 OTP - I get a goose out turn 1 a little less than ideal, but it's ok. He thought seizes me and reveals double wasteland which is enough to make him depress. A few can trips later I find a third wasteland and Goose plus Goyf get the job done.
Game 2 - This one was pretty bad. He was able to get a deathrite out turn 1 and play around everything with perfect information off of thought seize. My goose never gets very big after failing to find removal for deathrite and his Goyf quickly beats me down.
Game 3 - I get the perfect open lead Delver go. This game was kind of thrown because he started with wasteland go hoping to waste me out with the other one in hand. I proceed to make land drops the next few turns despite his wastelands and my delver gets me there.
This is pretty much the only way I've found to beat jund have the mana denial hand their mid to late game is too goo to even try to beat.
Boarding -4 force // + clique, spell pierce, price, rough and tumble

Round 2 Maverick *sigh* more fair decks where are the unfair ones those are easy hahaha 2/1 || 2/0
Game 1 OTP - I keep an ok, but control-ish hand full of bolts counters and a cantrip or two, but only one land. His deathrite gets bolted EOT. I proceed to not draw any lands and pass. He plays out a Scooze which I chain lightning on my turn while still not drawing another land. He plays out a thalia to which I bolt off of wasteland not ideal. Eventually I get somewhat of a board presence, but not after he gets a scryb ranger equipped with SoFI though I did put up a good fight with my 2 geese and delver putting him down to 6.
Game 2 - This one was pretty close I lead land go holding up stifle. He plays fetch pass followed by fetching on my upkeep which I still stifle. After playing out a goose I pass. He plays around daze turn 2 by passing. I land wasteland and pass with Clique on his draw step showing *surgical, KOTR, Savanah, verdant, Windswept, Dark Depths, Thalia* and have him bin the Thalia. He wastelands followed by Surgical on my volcanic . I wasteland back on my turn and play goyf. His turn he Jams KOTR which gets hit by daze at which point his hand is full of lands and passes. I play out another goose and get their despite having only something like 11 dead draws hahaha
Game 3 - This game was pretty slanted. I land turn one delver. Turn 2 it doesn't flip, but I bolt Deathrite and land another delver. Next turn he plays loam for no value and passes. I assume he's hurting for lands which makes my line even better to just close out the game as soon as possible. Delvers flip and three turns later that was game. Something about having 6 power in the air turn 3 is really good.
Boarding - 4 force, 1 stifle, 1 spell pierce // + 1 sulfur elemental, 1 rough, 1 destructive revelry, 1 artifact mutation, 1 vendillion clique, 1 price of progress. OTD +2 force // - 2 daze

Round 3 Infect This is the only match I play horribly and regret. 0/2 || 2/1
Game 1 OTP - I know what he's on and keep an ok hand of 2 wasteland, 3 fetch force ponder. I ponder shuffle away a stifle fetch and wasteland only to brick into another land. He plays out noble I try to wasteland him out and it doesn't work.
Game 2 - I keep a hand full of bolts and a force, but it never gets there.
I've played this match up a lot with my friend and it's weird. It seems like you really need a mix of bolt + counterspell to win. If you don't have pressure they slowly ping you down until they force your hand by getting you at 6 poison (surprisingly easy when you lead glistener noble pendel haven). Wastelands should definitely be saved strictly for Nexus. Even with 2 wastelands I couldn't mana screw them. Despite the fact they only have 5 real lands and 4 dorks somehow they seem to have more mana sources than I had bolts + wastelands. Also sideboard is a lot easier with submerges I played casually with him today and won 3 post board games with 2 submerges.

Round 4 Sneak and Show Finally a match up I enjoy 2/0 || 3/1
Game 1 OTP - I have a solid delver hand and pass with the usual fetch delver go. He plays volcanic ponder pass (either combo, tempo at this point). Delver flips I swing and pass. He plays tomb tries to go off I force he forces back I spell pierce and live to fight another day before the spaghetti monster arrives. Delver puts him to 10 at this point (turn 4) and next turn triple bolt gets there hahaha.
Game 2 He has the turn 1 nuts with double petal and show and tell, but I have Force mwhahahaha. At this point he has two cards in hand is pretty low on resources I get a turn 2 library. Library proceeds to draw me threat + disruption next turn. I counter every cantrip while out drawing him 3 to 1 over the next few turns. So yeah Library is Broken against combo I drew myself 4 extra cards down to 2 life. It allows you to aggressively counter cantrips without the worry of not having counters for their actual combo.
Boarding - 4 chain lightning, - 1 goyf, - 2 daze // + 3 pyroblast 2 flusterstorm 1 vendilion clique 1 spell pierce

Round 5 Goblins A match up I dread, but somehow win. 2/0 || 4/1
Game 1 OTP - I keep an ok hand of cantrips + bolts lead volcanic go. He plays out a lackey which meets bolt EOT. At this point I realize I need to find another land fast brainstorm and brick pass. He plays out another lackey which meets Chain lightning on my turn. He passes after not making a land drop. At this point we both have one land and I'm guessing he was banking on lackey A or B to gain board presence. I pass still locked off of my brainstorm. He plays wasteland go. I top deck Wasteland and now no one has lands. Eventually I'm the first to draw a land play out goose and ride it to victory.
Game 2 - He gets a turn 1 vial go. I land goose and pass. He passes back with vial at one and 2 lands out. I play out goyf on my turn and luckily he didn't have a lackey. He passes back adding a rishadan port which taps me off of red. I play out delver swing and pass. He vials out lackey followed by another vial and warchief next turn. Delver flips, but meets tarfire +1 to goyf hahaha. The team swings in and he quickly falls to 1 life. At this point we're at a stale mate with him having 4 or 5 some goblins out to my 2 geese + goyf. I land a Library pass hoping to just draw a bolt sometime soon... It doesn't happen. eventually he swings in with 5 out of his 7 goblins a few bite the dust goose trades with an absurdly large pile driver. My life total quickly dwindles down to 2 (none of which from my own library). I find a rough after fetching / pondering my way through my deck which clears the way for goose and goyf to go for the throat. It was slightly stupid seeing something like 12 + cards trying to find something like 5+ cards that win on the spot bolt with Brainstorm, fetch, ponder etc over a few turns.
Boarding is pretty bad here not much in the sideboard, but I'm kind of pre boarded with 4 chain lightnings to help out. - 4 force // + rough, sulfur elemental, vendillion, spell pierce I thought about adding Price or vortex, but ultimately decided they were too low impact / risky to side in. I also realized after boarding that spell pierce is almost as dead as force, but really what better did I have in the board hahaha.

Round 6 Deathblade Not sure how I feel about this match up seems 50/50. 1/2 || 4/2
Game 1 OTD - He has turn 1 deathrite which quickly meets bolt on my turn. He passes back after fetching while I'm tapped out. I play out a delver and pass. He swords my delver and follows with stoneforge which quickly dies to Chain lightning. I play out another delver and pass. Eventually it gets down to the wire with me keeping him out of Batterskull mana and delver beats. Two extra bolts help me get there just before batterskull was going to hit the table.
Game 2 - I play a control like game keeping a hand with disruption and Vortex. Eventually after some back and forth the first few turns him thinking I had stifle and a few dead deathrites vortex hits the table. I play out a delver and pass and he has Abrupt decay EoT for Vortex after only 1 hit with it. His turn he just passes back. Delver flips, but is quickly met by Snapcaster into abrupt decay. Snapcaster slowly beats me down, and he adds a batterskull to the table and then passes. I draw into a revelry which takes care of batterskull on his turn after he tries to equip. At this point it's too late and a TNN is enough for me to scoop up my cards.
Game 3 - I have an ok mulligan to 6 with 3 ponder, stifle, Price. I ponder shuffle and pass. He has turn 1 thoughtseize and tanks for a solid few mins and eventually picks stifle. The rest of the game is me pretty much being mana screwed while he plays out 2 deathrites and TNN. One thing that was hilarious was watching deathblade play like a tempo deck only extending two lands for fear of price hahaha.
Boarding I'm not sure about Vortex it seems good on paper, but with Abrupt decay and now council's judgment for miracles I'm thinking about cutting it. - 4 force, - 1 stifle, - 2 goyf, - 1 chain lightning, - 1 daze // + 3 pyroblast, 1 destructive revelry, 1 artifact mutation, 1 vendillion clique, 1 sulfuric vortex, 1 price of progress Cutting the goyfs seems ok seeing as Clique and Vortex are just better threats here and it allows me to dodge more removal.

Round 7 BUG Delver (without TNN, but at least 3 goyfs and probably 2 Tomstalkers maybe more) 1/2 || 4/3 This was the match up I was really worried about not having submerge and boy did it show.
Game 1 OTP - I get a delver out and force a turn 1 disfigure. Delver flips swings in, but that's all from him unfortunately. He passes delver tries to get in again, but is hit by Abrupt decay. I play out goyf pass. He plays Delver Delver pass. I swing in with Goyf add a goose to the table and pass. Delvers brick luckily, but he adds a tomstalker to the table. Goyf + goose swing he pauses for a min lets them through he goes to 1. He swings in for 8 plays a goyf of his own and passes. I just barely win with bolt off the top. I was a little skeptical of him swinging almost all in with Delver + Tombstalker, but with that much power on the table I can understand the advantage.
Game 2 - He has a perfect tempo hand with all the goodies. Not much I could do when he had everything: deathrite, delver, tempo daze and force protection.
Game 3 - This one was pretty much the same as game 2 except all he needed was for his Goyf to resolve. Eventually I was put in a position where I had to 2x bolt Tombstalker and chump with a delver on his goyf.
Boarding - 4 force - 1 stifle - 2 spell pierce // + 3 pyroblast, 2 flusterstorm, 1 vendilion clique, 1 price OTD - 2 daze // + 2 spell pierce
I was worried about not running submerge in the board and not having any other answers for it. Most variants of rug have some mainboard answer either in snare dismember or just perfect information tipping the scales in their favor. This build though definitely needs submerge in the board. Goyfs are too much of a problem to begin with and even worse when you only have 3 in your deck hahaha.

Overall I really like this build. It doesn't have the probe plan or solid silver bullets in snare and forked bolt, but it trades all that for absurd consistency in bolts. Always having a bolt for Deathrite, Mother, stoneforge, Thalia, etc is amazing. There's also some number of free win percentages gained by just having excessive burn. One thing about having a lot of burn mainboard you need to space it out over turns sometimes due to restricted red mana.

Sylvan Library was great all day. I've tested it against other decks like miracles, UR balancing painter, infect etc and it's absurdly good in the match ups where life doesn't matter which is plenty. You get to draw so many cards and invigorate's life gain actually becomes an advantage hahaha. There are so many draw combinations with Library that people can't beat. I've never really been sad about not having the 4th goyf. Jund wasn't too bad, but I would be wary of bug variants in only running 3 goyfs and no other answers for it. Unless you know there running TNN in which case the 4th goyf would still be irrelevant which I still think is more common than what I faced.

Despite running minimal counter disruption combo decks seem a breeze since our 54 core already beats them. Sideboard there's added hate with 5 solid counter spells and a clique. I might shave a pyroblast since against Sneak and show it was so one sided, but it has the other more important use in countering TNN.

The only changes I would make to the list would be the sideboard with the following:
3 Pyroblast
2 flusterstorm
1 vendilion clique
2 grafdigger's cage
2 submerge
1 destructive revelry
1 ancient grudge
1 sulfur elemental
1 rough
1 price of progress

Anyways keep on stifling those fetches guys!!!

I don't like price in your deck. I understand that you are on the burn plan, but think about this. This deck employs a lot of wasteland and stifles to stop duals and fetches. Your price won't get that much value if your game plan is working. Maybe you will get at most 4-6 damage in. That extra slot can be a null rod or pithing needle.

[KobeBryan]

what are your opinions on playing the 54 + 2 spell pierce, +2 forked bolt and sylvan and snapcaster?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

what are your opinions on playing the 54 + 2 spell pierce, +2 forked bolt and sylvan and snapcaster?

My opinion is that in a world of Abrupt Decays, a 13th creature can't hurt, be it Clique, TNN or SCM. What I like about SCM is that he brings another aspect and that it's a really versatile card. Moreover it has flash.
I already thought about playing a 4/4/3/1/1 split of Delver/Goose/Goyf/Clique/TNN, as the meta became veeerrry hostile towards Goyfs. Then again SCM is pretty weak once RiP hits the table, so I'd rather play Clique than him. Otoh, Tiago is an answer to RiP, esp. if you'd play Snare alongside your Pierces.


COtnract Killer, thanks for the detailed report and congrats on money finish!

[Contract Killer]

Destructive Revelry. It's not like they sb out Vials, and you definitely want to see it in gy, esp. if it would deal another two dmg.

Yeah that probably should have been a no brainer. Even though it only hits 4 cards those are the same 4 that pierce hits, but revelry still works if it resolves. Surprisingly it wasn't as dead I think because he did have x tarfires and Warren Weirding. This card was completely off my radar and his argument behind it is it's a edict effect for TNN + it can add more creatures to his board. It's some really nice tech that despite it never being cast would have completely caught me off guard. If I saw Thorn of Amethyst I would definitely have added the Revelry and maybe the Grudge probably taking out a pierce or something.

@contractkiller Did you play at Tales this past weekend? Also how do you think deathblade is a 50/50 match-up we play stifle, wasteland, lightning bolt, oh and goose which doesn't get removed. I played against it round 1 and crushed it 2-0. I would cut a REB if anything to add sulfur elemental

I have no idea where Tales is so no hahaha. It's 50/50 in the fact that every card they play is high impact and must be answered:
Deathrite
Dark Confidant
Stonforge
Snapcaster for value (must be countered allowing them to have multiple abrupt decays is just us forfeiting hahaha)
Jitte
TNN
Liliana
Supreme Verdict
Jace
Batterskull

All of these cards we really can't let resolve without having either an immediate bolt or other disruption like stifle for Liliana edict. Goose gets less shroud-y sideboarded when they have something like 3 lilana and probably 2-3 supreme verdicts or Toxic Deluge. Despite having the mana denial plan they do run 23 lands plus the Deathrite suite so I've found the it hard to execute and doesn't always work. Sure sometimes you get the nuts stifle into daze into wasteland threat pass, but it's not always that easy. It's also a high variance deck where sometimes their own deck gives them mana issues. Other times they live the dream OTP and have turn 2 Liliana. It's not a horrible matchup, but I definitely wouldn't say we're favored at the very least it's 50/50 maybe slightly favored for us if we're OTP.

They also play Batterskull, Deathrite, Jace, and from the board RiP, Verdict etc. all of which can cause trouble. It's pretty build- and skill dependant too, and I'd say its closer to even than favourable.

This is the other thing about this matchup up the opponents skill level. They have to put a lot of thought into what lands they fetch alone. If they try to double up on duals to play around wasteland they can end up with dead cards like Abrupt decay in their hand. That's probably just the beginning of a very complex set of decision trees with something as simple as deciding to lead with Deathrite or Thoughtseize and gets more complicated as the game progresses.

what are your opinions on playing the 54 + 2 spell pierce, +2 forked bolt and sylvan and snapcaster?

I think that the single sylvan is great I've had a lot of success with it. I'm a bit more skeptical about the snapcaster. While he does allow card advantage which is something our deck lacks he's also mana intensive. As a one of he seems fine, but might lack luster in the tempo mirrors or playing against something like Jund. A single wasteland can turn him from a 2/1 + 1 mana spell to measly 2/1.

COtnract Killer, thanks for the detailed report and congrats on money finish!

Unfortunatley it wasn't a money finish. Prizes paid out to top 25 I think and I was 17th before round 7. If I had gone 5/2 winning my last round I probably would have made prizes and maybe top 8, because I think we were right at the cutting point where 1 x/2 would make it in. Sadly though BUG Delver ruined my dreams. An unfavorable match up turned worse by not having Submerge. Man I got wrecked double bolt to deal with Tombstalker only to see him deploy two delvers the next turn

[Purgatory]

When you are facing Miracles you want to do the following, and would be better of staying away from some other points:

1) Stifle is your MVP. If you want to board it out, you havn't understood neither the deck, nor the Match-Up. I am sorry. It's the reason, alongside those nimble Mongeese, why Canadian Threshold is the toughest of the Delver-MUS. Stifle isn't just there for either, Fetchlands or Miracle triggers. Its versatility is what sets this card apart from any other card in this MU. It can fit any role in any situation throughout different types of games. It can help complement the mana denial while you are beating down and dazing removal. It can make sure you resolve a critical spell (last creature, Sylvan Library etc) by stifling Snapcaster Mage and stranding Top on the battlefield. It can also deal with Miracles win-condition while being relevant against most routes the UW deck will take. Clearly the MVP here. I'd play 5 before I'd play 3.

2) Keep your Force of Wills. This should be common knowledge right now, but Force of Wills are actually very good against Miracles. As I said on different occasion during the last few months in this forum it shouldn't be used to counter removal (most things of what I said about BUG vs UWR count for here, too). It's there to deal with the cards that turn the tide. Miracles will use its plentyful cantrips (up to 12 -with 4 being reusable) and efficient answers to create a game state where on tide-turner will kick you out of contention. This very card varies greatly from MU to MU, but for Canadian Threshold I am talking about Counterbalance with a Top in play or any of the game winning spells like Entreat or Jace - even though Jace, the Mind Sculptor should be beatable with various other means, aswell.

3) Being flexible is key. Not necessarily in your cards, but in how you approach the match-up. Sometimes you should be going all fucking in, dazing the removal, forcing whats left and beat face while stifling the Fetchlands. Sometimes you should go for the mid-game, trying to find the right spot for your cards, allowing the wrong spells to resolve and counter the important one. And, most importantly, do not be afraid of going the long way against Miracles. In the postboard matches it is def. possible to go the grindy way.
- I guess this one needs more explanation, doesn't it? Ok so when should you be going the grindy way and which plays are imporant? The classic hand does consist of Nimble Mongoose and no real way of reaching threshold in the forseeable future. No Fetchlands, no Ponder, no Brainstorm, just Duals and Countermagic. If the mix is right this hand is good, nontheless. If you go for the late game, and identify your hand as one that can and should do that you have to shift a few paradigms here:

Forcing a Top is a good idea.
Never Stifle a Fetchland.
Board out all Dazes.
Never fight over creatures (unless the UW guy has only access to 1 card and you have like 1-2 counters)

So, as you can see those sentences are structured in a way that should be avoided when talking about Magic and life in general. But they are very true for this very approach. Once again, don't be afraid, just go for it. I've lost way more games against (competent) opponents identifieng the game state correctly and moving to the late game than to opponents killing me with a fast Delver. (Once though I faced Samuele Estratti at GP Strasbourg, and he mulled extensively G1 and scooped without any permanents to Top+Balance+RIP. He then mindtricked me via clever eye movement and counting moves, so I actually boarded against a belcher-esque combo, only to be beaten down by a T1 Delver without having more than two or three copies of actual removal in my deck, but blargh, this is off-topic :D )

4) The number of Lightning Bolts that are still in your deck depend on how many other cards you are boarding out. Boarding out Dazes is a good idea on the draw, but is wrong most of the time when you are on the play. The first things that leave are additional removal spells like Dismember, Forked Bolt or Chain Lightning, alongside a couple of Dazes and a few Lightning Bolts. I am no fan of dismissing either card completly from your sideboarded deck, but the right mix surely consists of combination that is dependent on what you have access to in your sideboard. If you do have access to a lot of REB-type effects Lightning Bolts might not be that important as those deal with Snappy/Clique and Jace aswell - with the upside of hitting other stuff, too. On the other hand, if you have more taxing counters like Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm it might be okay to trim the Dazes very low, as you have reduntant pieces of this piece of disruption.

5) Do not bring in Artefact removal. It's not worth it, in any way. Keeping mana open to hit a flipped Top is no plan at any stage of any game. You want cards that do something. There is no reason to bring in artefact removal in the second game. Should you see a Stoneforge Mystic in the second game, emerging from the UWs man sideboard you can easily move Ancient Grudge to the mainboard for the next game. Krosan Grip is obv. an exception to this, as it deals with Top rather well while also providing an out to Counterbalance and RIP, kind of.

6) Have some noncreature permanents in order to annoy Miracles to death. Sylvan Library is an prime example for this, which acts as the super best 9th cantrip you can have when facing an UW deck. Don't be afraid to take Sulfuric Vortex, too, as this card is ridiculously good against Miracles, too - obviously. Oh, and Sulfur Elemental is a fucking hell of a card. I might be biased on this one, but I love this card so much.

So, that's it for today - I think I've covered the most important parts of this MU. Shouldn't this have been the case or should you have additional questions or remarks/comments on what I said - let me know :)

Greetings

Thanks for the great input. In many ways, this echoes my own experiences with the match-up. I've added a link to this post in the primer, hope you don't mind :)

@BKclassic: Thanks for the report, and congrats on the result!

[BKclassic]

Well folks, it seems that Burn is now an actual contender thanks to Eidolon of the Great Revel and burn players tightening up their lists (they run Searing Blaze now, making it harder to just ride Delver to victory). The match up is difficult enough that I think I need to adapt my main deck. Gitaxian Probe is a lot worse now, so I am going to be trying cutting Probe for Spell Snare. I am going to to give this list a try:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Sylvan Library

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt

3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

SB:
3 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Grafdigger's Cage

-The Sylvan Library in the main deck isn't great against burn, but neither is the fourth Stifle. It certainly might just end up as the 4th Stifle or possibly Preordain.

-2 Vendilion Clique in the SB to help against Show and Tell, where Spell Snare isn't very good. No room for Sulfur Elemental so I am running 2 Forked Bolt in the MD, I'll take my chances against Death and Taxes.

-It's irritating that this development has happened about a week before SCG Worcester (which I plan on going to), I was pretty firm on my last list. I'm trying to think of other tactics that might be effective against Burn. Zuran Orb and Blue Elemental Blast seem too narrow to be playable. Scavanging Ooze doesn't really seem good enough. Anything else I am missing?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Well folks, it seems that Burn is now an actual contender thanks to Eidolon of the Great Revel and burn players tightening up their lists (they run Searing Blaze now, making it harder to just ride Delver to victory). The match up is difficult enough that I think I need to adapt my main deck. Gitaxian Probe is a lot worse now, so I am going to be trying cutting Probe for Spell Snare. I am going to to give this list a try:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Sylvan Library

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt

3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

SB:
3 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Grafdigger's Cage

-The Sylvan Library in the main deck isn't great against burn, but neither is the fourth Stifle. It certainly might just end up as the 4th Stifle or possibly Preordain.

-2 Vendilion Clique in the SB to help against Show and Tell, where Spell Snare isn't very good. No room for Sulfur Elemental so I am running 2 Forked Bolt in the MD, I'll take my chances against Death and Taxes.

-It's irritating that this development has happened about a week before SCG Worcester (which I plan on going to), I was pretty firm on my last list. I'm trying to think of other tactics that might effect against Burn. Zuran Orb and Blue Elemental Blast seem too narrow to be playable. Scavanging Ooze doesn't really seem good enough. Anything else I am missing?

I think you're quite right. It's important to play enough removal for their small critters, but Chain Lightning is not an option, thus FB. I like Snare, it stops PoP and Searing Blaze, also Eidolon;, it's really good card against burn.
I thik SnT should be fine matchup, and DnT can be won on backs of removal and Rough, no need for Elemental.
ZOrb is narrow, Hydroblast I wouldn't even consider, unless my meta would be full of Burn and Goblins. SCooze seems not strong enough, as there wion't be taht many guys in gy, otho it may buy a few life points and thus negate a bolt or two, plus it works like a walking hate in gy matchups and/or mirror. I'd try it, if you have a chance to test it, but I don't think it's a no-brainer.

[sawatarix]

You are kidding right?
I mean we have a good burn matchup already,no need for low impact cards like hydroblast or even zuran orb.
Almost every single card in our deck is great against mono red:
- Tarmogoyf and nimble mongoose(treshed) dominate the board against goblin guided and eidolon.
- stifle is a hardcounter against rift bolt
- all of our countermagic are supereffective,even daze because it can "counter" price of progress.

Don't see a reason to waste sideboardslots against this mu.

[BKclassic]

You are kidding right?
I mean we have a good burn matchup already,no need for low impact cards like hydroblast or even zuran orb.
Almost every single card in our deck is great against mono red:
- Tarmogoyf and nimble mongoose(treshed) dominate the board against goblin guided and eidolon.
- stifle is a hardcounter against rift bolt
- all of our countermagic are supereffective,even daze because it can "counter" price of progress.

Don't see a reason to waste sideboardslots against this mu.

Yeah I am just trying to discuss how I might want to tweak my build given that Burn is going to be more of a mainstay in the meta. No one's suggesting running any narrow SB cards or the MD. Thanks for the constructive criticism.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

This is not right.

Although I'm against narrow cards, I feel like saying "Burn is a positive matchup" is exagerating. Esp. 8 Bolts Thresh is pretty weak to it, as they can play easily around our countermagic while using our CLs, if only we play them. Searing Blaze is really annoying, Mongoose does nothing in the first turns, they laugh at our 2 Pierces, Delver dies while leaving stack, so it's up to Goyf to hold the ground, but their critters are one-drops and/or utility dorks, be it Guide, Grim, Eidolon or the one with vanishin.Dazing a PoP? Waht are you talking about? I don't remember the last time I did it, most of the burn I met simply slow-comboed me with "three-per-turn" dmg output and laughed at any taxing counters without actually playing a single PoP. Heck, I'm not even sure if they play the card, as it's pretty situational and can be Daze-ridiculed, while Searing Blaze is nigh always live.
With Guide and Eidolon, with their lots of 3dmg spells, they get you down to twelve before you even notice anything and that's when the real sweating starts, esp. if you need to play Trop for critters, Volc to have a red open for Guide and another dual to pay for Pierce/BS. (You may dick around with one land, of course, but then you're not playing Magic anymore and simply succumb to their alpha status.) That's when "must-counters" start to fly around and Goyf does very little to stop them; PoP and Fireblast being the most important, but basically each and every their spell needs to be solved.
I guess Burn doesn't even play Suspend Bolt anymore, as I don't remember Stifling it. No fetchlands, too. So we got a set of dead cards, then another set of cards that may easily backfire, then two sets of 1/1 dudes, one that makes nothing before turn4-5 and the other that feeds Searing Blaze, we got Force of Hymn to Tourach Oh I Countered Your Bolt And Dealt Myself One that needs to be kept for Blast or PoP (unless you're lucky enough to sit on double Waste and/or have lots of Dazes in hand when they PoP; but then again having Dazes at ready in the mid-late game quite sucks, and it means you didn't have them when they mattered), so the only critter that really matter is a Goyf which is kind of a burn trigger and the only counterspells that really matter are Spell Pierces in early game and FoWs later.

Sky isn't falling yet, but the mere fact Burn won the last SCG needs to mean something.

[Einherjer]

Back in the day when I was playing Canadian Threshold I had a Sensei's Divining Top in the mainboard, alongside 3 more Tops and 3-4 Counterbalances in the sideboard. Burn didn't stand a chance. Good old days :D

Greetings

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Back in the day when I was playing Canadian Threshold I had a Sensei's Divining Top in the mainboard, alongside 3 more Tops and 3-4 Counterbalances in the sideboard. Burn didn't stand a chance. Good old days :D

Greetings

I had the combo in board. :-D
But it's really long time ago. i t was definitely much better in old UGr Threshold (the one with Fledgling Dragon and lots of basics) or in Moon Thresh.

[Contract Killer]

Well folks, it seems that Burn is now an actual contender thanks to Eidolon of the Great Revel and burn players tightening up their lists (they run Searing Blaze now, making it harder to just ride Delver to victory). The match up is difficult enough that I think I need to adapt my main deck. Gitaxian Probe is a lot worse now, so I am going to be trying cutting Probe for Spell Snare. I am going to to give this list a try:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Sylvan Library

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt

3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

SB:
3 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Grafdigger's Cage

-The Sylvan Library in the main deck isn't great against burn, but neither is the fourth Stifle. It certainly might just end up as the 4th Stifle or possibly Preordain.

-2 Vendilion Clique in the SB to help against Show and Tell, where Spell Snare isn't very good. No room for Sulfur Elemental so I am running 2 Forked Bolt in the MD, I'll take my chances against Death and Taxes.

-It's irritating that this development has happened about a week before SCG Worcester (which I plan on going to), I was pretty firm on my last list. I'm trying to think of other tactics that might be effective against Burn. Zuran Orb and Blue Elemental Blast seem too narrow to be playable. Scavanging Ooze doesn't really seem good enough. Anything else I am missing?

I've played the new burn match up at my local store and while it's hard it's not horrible. This was also with me running Chain lightning which surprisingly isn't that bad. They usually tap out the first few turns to play out there grims, guides, and Eidolon. This is when you want the Chain lightning you just need to time it right to either bolt it or use Chain lightning. Goyf also got a lot better surprisingly because now if eidolon is in the grave they can't block Goyf with Guide and add a bolt to kill him. They have to have double bolt now to kill goyf.
Another thing is that if they're running the same list from Las Vegas they play 7 fetches which is completely unnecessary and gives our stifles a bit more value. Eidolon is also weird in that it's a universal effect. When I was playing against them I passed rift resolved shocked him in addition to bolting me and then I bolted Eidolon snagging another 2 damage to their face.

[bakofried]

Uh, explain please? You can't bolt Eidolon and make them take two. Is it just odd sentence structure?

Oh, and they run fetches to feed Grim Lavamancer and hold Searing Blaze landfall triggers. It's not all that crazy.

[Purgatory]

I've made a few updates to the primer, specifically to the Miracles and DeathBlade match-ups, as well as a section dealing with only Gitaxian Probe in the first post. I'd be happy for any and all feedback, the goal is nothing less than the greatest primer on the Source :)

[poxy14]

went 3 - 3 last sunday, 50+ participants Cerberus Legacy Open...
deck felt solid, some days you arent just lucky...

crits = 4delvers/3goose/3goyfs/1 vcliq/1tnn
spells = 2 pierce/1 snare/1fice/1tarfire/1forkedbolt
sb = 2needles, 2 rough, 1 tnn, 1 revelry, 1grudge, 1 surgical, 3pyroblasts, 2 submerges, 1 graf, 1 pierce

0-2 DnT
very comfortable upon numerous playtesting..instead of sulfur, i know with TNN, it can wreck this very deck..2 games i wasnt able to draw any volcanics is simply horendous! game 2 mulled to 5 after havin my 1st seven and six cards with 2 wastelands...even my needles didnt show up..just crazy!

2-0 cephalid breakfast
delvers were fast, and after him resolving grand arbiters..during my turn non survived, thus i was able to interact on his very impt turns...

2-1 sneak show
lost game 1 via keeping crit heavy hand...1st turns thought he was urburn or patriot when he landed tomb, then start comboing up...games 2-3 my lone cliq showed up and every keep i have a needle at hand..

1-2 bug delver
won game1, grindy matchup..when i drew fice to tap tombstalker for the kill via numerous mongoose, game 2 was fast for him with 2 delvers and goyfs..game 3 where we wastlanded each other and game went top deck mode...4x we went blank until he drew fetch and bstorm ftw..i didnt able to recover...prior to that i drew waste and cast a needle for verdant...what he drew was delta : (...i always watchout the games we played and listed the deck showed multiple verdants instead of deltas..

2-1 esperdeathblade
lost game1, tempoe’d him game 2, he had stps but no use for geese, game 3 where i had him down to 8...i revelried his jitte, and he resolved a batterskull...i managed to put down my tnn i which surprised him..2 turns i got my other tnn and that was it..he told me he didint expect me to have that card in my deck haha!

1-2 mud
really hate this matchup, game 1 i didnt kept a fow, with cantrips and pair of pierces i thought i could make it..he's on the play and BAM! that's it...chalice 1 and i conceded...game 2 it was the same but this time my early pierce connected..goyfs and cliq crushed him...game 3, we were talking that one of us might still get into T16 for some consolation prizes...he already mulled to 4, and im very confident with what i kept at 6...bstorm, pierce, delver, bolt, land, land.....then he drew ancient tomb still with a chalice! wow! 2 times i fetched and looking at my topdeck twice...it was a grudge.

im still very confident with what the deck has to offer, i knew i never made any misplays (except for mulling to FOW everytime im facing MUD haha, just a crazy draw for that pilot), it was just that day the deck didnt wanna play...missed very important pcs on very impt sitautions..

[ShiftyKapree]

went 3 - 3 last sunday, 50+ participants Cerberus Legacy Open...
deck felt solid, some days you arent just lucky...

crits = 4delvers/3goose/3goyfs/1 vcliq/1tnn
spells = 2 pierce/1 snare/1fice/1tarfire/1forkedbolt
sb = 2needles, 2 rough, 1 tnn, 1 revelry, 1grudge, 1 surgical, 3pyroblasts, 2 submerges, 1 graf, 1 pierce

0-2 DnT
very comfortable upon numerous playtesting..instead of sulfur, i know with TNN, it can wreck this very deck..2 games i wasnt able to draw any volcanics is simply horendous! game 2 mulled to 5 after havin my 1st seven and six cards with 2 wastelands...even my needles didnt show up..just crazy!

2-0 cephalid breakfast
delvers were fast, and after him resolving grand arbiters..during my turn non survived, thus i was able to interact on his very impt turns...

2-1 sneak show
lost game 1 via keeping crit heavy hand...1st turns thought he was urburn or patriot when he landed tomb, then start comboing up...games 2-3 my lone cliq showed up and every keep i have a needle at hand..

1-2 bug delver
won game1, grindy matchup..when i drew fice to tap tombstalker for the kill via numerous mongoose, game 2 was fast for him with 2 delvers and goyfs..game 3 where we wastlanded each other and game went top deck mode...4x we went blank until he drew fetch and bstorm ftw..i didnt able to recover...prior to that i drew waste and cast a needle for verdant...what he drew was delta : (...i always watchout the games we played and listed the deck showed multiple verdants instead of deltas..

2-1 esperdeathblade
lost game1, tempoe’d him game 2, he had stps but no use for geese, game 3 where i had him down to 8...i revelried his jitte, and he resolved a batterskull...i managed to put down my tnn i which surprised him..2 turns i got my other tnn and that was it..he told me he didint expect me to have that card in my deck haha!

1-2 mud
really hate this matchup, game 1 i didnt kept a fow, with cantrips and pair of pierces i thought i could make it..he's on the play and BAM! that's it...chalice 1 and i conceded...game 2 it was the same but this time my early pierce connected..goyfs and cliq crushed him...game 3, we were talking that one of us might still get into T16 for some consolation prizes...he already mulled to 4, and im very confident with what i kept at 6...bstorm, pierce, delver, bolt, land, land.....then he drew ancient tomb still with a chalice! wow! 2 times i fetched and looking at my topdeck twice...it was a grudge.

im still very confident with what the deck has to offer, i knew i never made any misplays (except for mulling to FOW everytime im facing MUD haha, just a crazy draw for that pilot), it was just that day the deck didnt wanna play...missed very important pcs on very impt sitautions..

The DNT match-up is 50/50 for me, its honestly who ever gets the better draws. We should get the better draws but that deck has so many tax affects it constraints the hell out of our deck. I lost to it the last tournament I played in bc game 1 he got lucky and landed a BS, game 2 went to 5 cards and the son of a bitch got 3 wastelands. oh and flickerwisping my only goyf twice was good too. I think I want to play 2 needles, 2 rough/tumble, 1 sulfur elemental and 1 grudge I want to board in. I really never worry about RIP bc they just never seem to land it against me for whatever reason. I've been lucky there, as for what I take out I prefer to take out 4 fow's and the dazes sometimes. Stifle is too good and I never stifle a vial trigger no matter how hard they try and bait you to waste them. save your stifles for wastelands and SFM or BS, oh and sometimes flickerwisp depending on the game.

[Contract Killer]

Uh, explain please? You can't bolt Eidolon and make them take two. Is it just odd sentence structure?

Oh, and they run fetches to feed Grim Lavamancer and hold Searing Blaze landfall triggers. It's not all that crazy.

Their rift bolt had resolved dealing 2 damage to them via Eidolon. Therefore my Bolt turned into "deal 3 damage to target creature or player and each player takes 2 damage". More to the point eidolon is a universal effect and while it's really bad for us it does effect them too. Yeah I know the fetches have a use, but they could just run better burn spells I think, but that's just my opinion.

[hiski]

Their rift bolt had resolved dealing 2 damage to them via Eidolon. Therefore my Bolt turned into "deal 3 damage to target creature or player and each player takes 2 damage". More to the point eidolon is a universal effect and while it's really bad for us it does effect them too. Yeah I know the fetches have a use, but they could just run better burn spells I think, but that's just my opinion.

how are the actually taking two damage via eidolon when you're casting a lightning bolt?

EDIT: nvm I think I got it already :)