So me and a friend recently played at a 70man tournament both on rug and both making top 8 (I'll probably right a tournament report in a little while). Now the interesting thing about my friends list was he had 1 sulfuric vortex and 2 eidolon (the good one) in his sideboard. Vortex is nothing new, but eidolon is and his argument behind it really intrigued me. He suggested that vortex is strong vs miracles, but that's really the only match up you want it in. Eidolon on the other hand is really good against combo and also good against miracles since they'll probably take 2 - 4dmg before it's gone if they can get past your counters. For example, against storm instead of playing out a threat and then holding up countermagic you're now playing out a threat proactively deals with their combo. This isn't as prevalent against omnitell, but they tend to be a bit slower so it could probably increase your clock since they'll play lots of cantrips. I'm curious as to what you guys think it definitely seems like a card that has never been explored for these match ups, but has a lot of potential I think.
Howdy, I started playing Legacy at the beginning of this year. I play about once a month in small 8-12 man tournaments at my LGS. After six months, my match record is 15-5.
Against aggro decks, I am 5-1. The only aggro deck I have played against is Death and Taxes. There are a couple Maverick players at my store, but I have never faced them.
Against combo decks, I am 7-1. We have a healthy mix of Storm, OmniTell, Reanimator, and Elves. My only combo loss was against Elves and that was at my very first Legacy event back in January.
Against control decks, I am 3-3. The main control decks I see are Miracles and MUD. And as you can see, I am not very good at playing against them. In all 3 of my losses, I really felt like I got outplayed by better/more experienced players.
Right now, my MD is the core 54 with 4x Spell Pierce and 2x Dismember, which I got from Jacob Wilson. I used to play 2x Spell Pierce, 2x Gitaxian Probe, and 2x Forked Bolt, which I got from Daniel Olivieri.
My SB is 2x Ancient Grudge, 2x Flusterstorm, 2x Grafdigger's Cage, 2x Pyroblast, 2x Submerge, 2x Rough/Tumble, 1x Krosan Grip, 1x Pithing Needle, and 1x Sulfur Elemental.
Could you all please give me some tips on the Miracles and MUD match-ups? Do you all have any recommendations on my SB? Should I adjust my SB to better fight against control decks? I just added the second Ancient Grudge (dropping my third Pyroblast) in order to combat MUD, but I have yet to test my new SB in that match-up.
Thank you all in advance.
For miracles the board should be (regardless of play or draw imo) this:Originally Posted by philipneri
- 4 daze, - 2 goyf, - fifth and sixth removal (in this case dismember) // + 2 flusterstorm, 2 pyroblast, 1 krosan grip, 1 pithing needle, 1 sulfur elemental, 1 ________
Daze is by far the worst card to have against them. Even otp it's pretty bad since we usually can't apply enough pressure to force their hand and they can get out of daze range real fast. I've had a lot of times where I've gotten miracles to something like 5 and they got terminus with me having a dead daze in the hand. If you want better sideboard options against miracles try shaving a cage, grudge and put in a vendilion clique and sulfuric vortex. Both are really efficient threats that interact in some way either with miracle cards or by having shroud essentially. Sylvan library is another really good card since it usually just draws you 3 - 4 cards, makes their swords horrible and at worst filters the top 3 away when you have a fetch.
As for MUD the best way to beat it is to dodge it. In all honesty it's a really bad match up. They have a ton of artifacts that make all our spells cost more and our deck is built around having 1 or 2 land. Unfortunately in a small tournament you're probably going to run into it. Just board in your artifact hate and hope to draw into it is the best advice I could give.
Interesting choices against Miracle.
Last month, I managed to beat two miracle players (with J.Wilson list) each 2/0. I was lucky to steal G1 both rounds.
My boarding strategy was pretty simple:
If you don't see any karakas:
- 4 Wasteland
- 2 Dismember
-1 Daze (If heavy on Snapcasters)
+2 Pyrosalve
+2 Spell snare
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Sulfur Elemental
+1 Grafdigger (if heavy on Snapcasters)
If you see a volcanic island/mountain/REB:
-4 Wasteland
-2 Dismember
-2 Daze
+2 Pyrosalve
+2 Spell snare
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Sulfur Elemental
+1 Blue Elemental Blast
+1 Grafdigger
Just play tight. You have more counters and more threats.
1) Play 1 threat at a time and let him deal with it before playing another.
2) Save your stifle for terminus.
2) Play all your land -> Eventually you'll reach 5 lands in play and you can hardcast FOW
Hope this will give you some ideas.
Why don't you side out Lightning Bolt? In case of monks? And why don't you side in Krosan Grips?
Bolts give you reach, kill Jace and deal with Monk if they bring them in.
Interesting note on the Eidolon. I have not tried it myself but can imagine taking a ton of damage since the entire deck's mana cost is under 3. The reason I run sulfuric vortex is not just against control but decks that pack white as well. The worst feeling is when they plow their creatures to gain life to put them out of burn range and also white decks have stoneforge so racing batterskull lifegain is a thing to consider. Also, vortex will stick around longer since it is rare that enchantment hate will come in versus a RUG player as not everybody plays vortex whereas creature removal for eidolon is ubiquitous. I think given the 54 RUG core, we are already inherently good against combo and postboard pyroblast/flusterstorm etc. gives us even more game. As for miracles, I board in sylvan library to draw a ton, a clique, and a sulfur elemental.
This is by far the worst advice I have seen given against miracles. Daze is an All-Star against them, it can counter CB which is the biggest problem. The correct way to board is to board out Burn spells bring in the blast and whatever else you have against them. Sulfuric Vortex and Vendilion Clique are also terrible for the match-up imo. I don't like playing anything higher than a cmc of 2. My current board runs a null rod and 2 surgicals which the surgicals have improved match-ups against bug tremendously. Leaving mana open to bluff them on counter's or a stifle is crucial in this mathch-up as well.
THIS is the worst advice I have seen against miracles. Daze SUCKS
The correct way to board out is to take out Daze, then bring in grip, vortez, clique, and red blasts, surgical works too. but daze is out the door #1
I wonder why people choose vortex in their SB. Isn't true name just a better card for the same role? (He is quite untouchable and 3damage has more reach)
TNN dies to Terminus. Vortex doesn't.
So Ben Wienburg played this recently at an SCG premier IQ:
Creatures (12)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
Lands (18)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Spells (30)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Forked Bolt
4 Ponder
Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Winter Orb
1 Blurred Mongoose
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Dismember
1 Flusterstorm
1 Price of Progress
2 Pyroblast
1 Spell Snare
1 Submerge
2 Rough
A typical MD but the SB is interesting. Anybody tried winter orb or blurred mongoose?
Aside from terminus dealing with TNN there's also the advantage of vortex shutting down batterskull / jitte. Vortex doesn't clock them as fast, but is harder to deal in some aspects. They're somewhat similar in their damage output and "evasiveness", but they have very different advantages after that.
I've run Goose, it's absolutely fantastic against Lands and especially against Miracles. I haven't run Winter Orb in RUG, but I've run it in BUG, where it's a solid midgame anti-control card.
Vortex is a house against Miracles and Clique is also fantastic. Clique in response to a miracle trigger is too strong of play to forgo. I understand the fear of a three mana card (especially with two red in the cost) but they are doing much more powerful things we need to be playing a few more powerful effects to combat them.
Daze has got to come out. Any competent Miracles player will play around Daze all game. Time is on the Miracles players side. All they need to do is establish the Counter+Top lock and we are in a world of hurt. I do strongly agree that the removal pieces 5 & 6 should come out as well at the least. I often board out 1 or 2 lightning bolts as well for additional counters (Spell Snare, REB, Flusterstorm, Envelop, etc.)
My boarding plan is as follows for Miracles.
-4 Daze, -2 Forked Bolts, -2 Lightning Bolts
+2 Flusterstorm, +2 REB, +1 Envelop, +1 Destructive Revelry, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Vendilion Clique
Ask Obama for a Magic: The Gathering subsidy while being dressed in pajamas.
I tend to side out some number of Tarmogoyfs, since they will attempt to resolve a Rest in Peace. With no goyfs after board, I can focus on countering CB and Terminus, and let the goose get there. Even though there are games where a quick goyf followed by a countered RiP will finish the game quickly, I really hate having completely dead cards if they get RiP into play. I bring a TNN, Sulfur Elemental, Clique and Vortex for the additional threats, pyroblasts and a surgical if I am running one.
Would you say that you take out Goyf before any Lightning Bolts? I agree though that Goyf is next on the chopping block since most Miracles decks bring in RiP against us.
Ask Obama for a Magic: The Gathering subsidy while being dressed in pajamas.
I find it very odd people still are playing RIP against you. It's a good card granted, but I haven't seen it out of a miracles board in a while at least not against us. I think the more favored version of miracles is the ponder lists with 2 - 4 snapcasters + 2 - 3 DTT. That being said RIP is a bit of a non-bo unless they're playing against something like reanimator/dredge where it turns into an auto win. Even against us RIP isn't an auto win. I'm pretty sure DTT and snapcasters are just better vs us then RIP out of the board.
This is a bit of a preference. Bolt gives us reach and can sometimes save our threats from an ambush clique (or a snapcaster if goose isn't grown yet). Goyf is a threat with repeatable damage which is usually better than burn, but against the more common miracle lists (see the above resp) it gives them more targets to plow -> snap -> plow us. We still need some number of goyfs to still have enough threats, but lowering them by 1 or 2 in favor of more resilient threats out of the board clique, Vortex, Sulfur elemental etc is better. I'm pretty sure the optimal board should be something like this regardless of OTP or OTD (despite this people will have their own preferences):
- 4 daze, - 2 secondary removal, - 1 goyf, - 1 waste // + 2 - 3 pyroblast, flusterstorm, sylvan library, clique, vortex, sulfur elemental
Something along those lines is probably the best. Daze is horrible since they have time on their side and enough lands to play around it. Wasteland isn't super effective so I like cutting one. Secondary removal is just bad whether it's forked bolt, chain lightning, dismember etc. Goyf is the first threat to go, but I wouldn't cut more than 2.
On a completely unrelated note I took 4th in a local tournament and was happy to find myself in good company with 2 other rug delver players in the top 8. I lost to Shawn in the semifinals, but he's a very good miracles pilot who I play against regularly.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9971&d=257483&f=LE
Round 1 UWR Stoneblade
game 1 I had an early delver which eventually got swords. Goose followed shortly after, but eventually I ran out of gas and he stabilized at 5 with Batterskull.
game 2 Delver + mana denial got there with goose mopping things up.
game 3 Goose carried the game with krosan grip saving me from batterskull
Round 2 Jund loam pox???
game 1 He had turn 1 chalice off of mox diamond. I land a goyf and go to work at his life total, but he stabilizes and that's more or less the game with him having an active lili.
game 2 He again had turn 1 chalice after I played some cantrip... Now I'm on tilt. I did get multiple goyfs and was able to race him.
game 3 Once again turn 1 chalice and I lost. Very salty about this match even more so that he had turn 1 chalice all 3 games against one of my other friends in round 3 as well.
Round 3 Infect
game 1 he's on a mull to 5 with me otp. I passed turn 1 with delta up he probes sees force + brainstorm + stifle + wasteland. I top deck a delver and that game didn't go anywhere for him really.
game 2 I kept a cantrip + disruption hand, but never found a threat. He eventually got something to stick and made short work of my well poison total.
game 3 I got sylvan library to resolve turn 2 and that just carries you in this match up.
This is by far one of my favorite match ups. Pre board they're a bit favored, but post board we just take some number of dazes/stifles and 2 geese out for lots of removal 2 rough, 2 pyroblast, 2 submerge, sylvan, fluster, krosan grip (not sure if this is really necessary, but the split second really helps especially since inkmoth is one of their harder threats to hit). Snares are a reasonable cut too since they hit the same stuff you bring in pyroblast for blighted agent which is one of the harder threats to deal with. Glistener elf is by far the easiest threat followed by blighted agent and then inkmoth based on what removal you need to kill them.
Round 4 tezzerator w/ leyline + helm combo
game 1 he starts with leyline and has tomb into signet which I tank on for a while and gamble that it's worth forcing. I got a goyf out while he was stuck with tomb + city for a while. He got a darkslick shore, but that deck requires heavily on colored mana which is why they play so signets.
game 2 he had a really good start with leyline again. For a while he was stuck on lands, but had ensnaring bridge. He was trying to loop baleful strix with academy ruins which I kept countering while I could. I had a good board presence and then top decked krosan grip which allowed me to go in for the alpha strike.
After we talked some he said he just got too greedy with trying to loop strix since he had a second bridge in hand, but felt safe with 1 bridge + strix once he thought it resolved.
Round 5 Rug delver mirror
game 1 I win the die roll and he had to take a mulligan which already puts me heavily favored for the mirror. I win the mana denial game and after he took out my delver goose slowly picked at him while he was hoping to draw land that never came.
game 2 we trade threats, but I had more lands and was able to snare his goyf followed by me resolving mine with force back up.
Round 6 ANT
game 1 I get a lot of pressure with goyf + goose. He probed saw that I had bolt and was planning to wait 1 more turn at 11. I top decked a forked bolt and got there.
game 2 I had a hand with goose + Cage and decided to lead on cage to keep it safe from duress if he had one (he cantripped and passed on his turn 1). Next I played out goose and a bolted him. I found clique and played that on his eot which his hand was:
infernal tutor x 2
cabal rit
LED x 2
Pif
dark rit
After thinking for a while I took cabal rit since that kept him short on mana the most which I think was right, but I'm curious what your thoughts might be.
He had known 1 out of the 2 cards in my hand (it was land) and decided to go for it. He brainstorms puts some stuff back starts casting his rituals, tutors for more LEDs. Plays 3rd tutor cracks LEDs plays tendril... my last card was stifle. I'll be perfectly honest I had the only card that would save me there except for flusterstorm. He could have beat any single counter except flusterstorm or stifle. We talked about it some and if his brainstorm didn't brick as badly he probably would have won he just needed to find an answer for cage or hand disruption. Here's his tournament repot here which puts this little one of mine to shame lol: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...Dmw/edit?pli=1
Round 7 Jordan Aisaka ID
Quarterfinals Zac Ohnemus
Game 1 He's on a similar UWR stoneblade list that my first opponent of the day played. Once again I eat away at his life total with a goose for a while after my first delver got swords. Eventually he stabilized with batterskull at 7 life. I can usually get them low on life, but after the second stoneforge I start running short on answers.
Game 2 I got an early delver out which got in a hit, but was killed shortly after. Sylvan library hit the table and that card is just an all star in any match up like this. I got a quick clock out shortly after that drawing into goyf + goose.
Game 3 I led on delver and for once it didn't die immediately. That was partially due to a wasteland and stifle of mine though. I played clique at one point and see his hand is
pierce
council's judgment
snapcaster mage
bolt
snare
At this point my heart sinks I take snapcaster the only card he can play that's relevant since he can't cast judgment or snare. There's some argument for snare, but he had swords in the bin plus a cantrip. Despite him getting a draw off of clique it's more likely he'll find something with snap + ponder and he has the option for snap + swords. I got lucky here because the one thing that would win me the game happened he didn't draw lands. His hand was way stacked and if he found another white source to cast judgment to deal with goose I would have lost.
Semifinals Shawn Yu
game 1 I'm on the play and lead on delver. He fetched tundra played top which got dazed. He pondered, but never got past 3 mana. He was one a mull to 5 which helped, but it wasn't much of a game.
game 2 is really close with me drawing 4 cards off of sylvan and I got him down to 5 before he established a counterbalance lock on me and entreated the following turn.
game 3 I kept a really reactive hand with goose and got him down to 11, but then he was able to terminus it. Shortly after he established the counterbalance lock again and got there.
I'll be perfectly honest I don't really remember much of this match it was late and after 9hrs or so of magic I was really tired. Game 2 I think I made a play mistake somewhere when I played out my second goose with him at 5 forcing him to have terminus or bust. I had a goyf in hand but the second goose makes his outs clique, terminus or snapcaster which is a lot better than if I played the goyf which would be clique, terminus, swords, snapcaster, etc. Most of my games against miracles tend to be this way very close and tight, but it takes one solid play by them a terminus at the right time or DTT to recover and close us out of the game.
At the end of the day I had fun and went home with a bayou and plateau I didn't have before lol.
Last edited by Contract Killer; 06-28-2015 at 11:24 PM.
How is this deck right now?
Has everyone switched to the Young Pyro/Angler deck for the time being?
Can we fit the new R sorcery that requires us to discard a land to draw 2 cards? The card seems good enough since it enables threshold and is gas in the lategame.
For reference:
http://www.cardkingdom.com/media/ima...d/201770_1.jpg
Cheers
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