I don't agree with the statement that "Not having 2x Cindervines in your 75 is almost certainly just wrong" but I do believe it's much better than Destructive Revelry. It's not helpful to talk about hypotheticals in this way when we need to consider concrete examples in the current metagame. There are salient examples of where Vines is better than Revelry:
- Threat vs control decks (you could board Revelry vs Miracles if you wanted but it seems considerably worse than Vines overall even if they can potentially use Disenchant / CJ on it.)
- Potential anti-storm card (Disenchant/Revelry not even worth considering here)
- Comes down before problematic hate permanents that make it difficult to cast RG removal spells (B2B, Counterbalance, Blood Moon, Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void, Choke)
- Card type enchantment has Tarmogoyf-boosting applications
Where are spots where Revelry is actually better?
You need a confluence of so many things
1. It's a matchup where the Pillar effect is insignificant / irrelevant
or
2. Your opponent is playing Enchantment removal AND You get punished for sandbagging vines to use as 1RG sorcery Revelry
or
3. Your opponent still has Needle/Revoker/Spyglass effects after sideboarding
or
4. RG + 1 is significantly worse than just RG
and
5. You don't care about resolving your kill spell before the targeted permanent OR being able to hide Revelry in your hand to surprise the opponent with it at instant speed is relevant
The most obvious example of a matchup where at least some of these things are true is DNT, which is why I think Cindervines is a complement to Grudge rather than a replacement. I think you can afford the SB slots to do this because Cindervines also has anti-control applications. The net effect is that your Stompy matchup should improve (because now you have 2 Grudge + 1-2 Cindervines) plus you get extra coverage vs other decks like Enchantress and Storm, and at no cost to your other matchups because Vines is hopefully as good against Miracles/Grixis as whatever other card was in that slot beforehand
I replaced the single Destructive Revelry with a Cindervines for the short tournament. It was only 3 rounds, which I all won. 2-0 against UB Shadow, 2-1 against D&T, 2-1 against UWR Splinterblade. Cindervines came in against D&T and Splinterblade. In both cases it was good, but did not feel so much better than Revelry. I will try it out some more as your comments have convinced be there is more upside than downside. I like to be able to boost my Goyf in a pinch (targeting itself in dire cases). Thanks for the tips!
Just remember, when it targets self it becomes an illegal target (in yard) and will not ding you for two.
Anyone see the list that went 5–2 with 2 Tarfire main and 3 Cindervines and 2 Entrancing Melody in the sideboard?
I don’t get Entrancing Melody and I wonder if you really want 4 red blast effects, but I like the rest.
Gilded Drake, it's your time to shine!
It must be for Marit Lage because if you're stealing any creature that costs 1 or more it's basically a worse Threads (I don't expect you will bring this expecting to steal a creature with CMC 3 or more)
I think you can probably use Wasteland to force them to make Lage in some situations where you have UU for Melody but it seems both difficult to use for this purpose AND an extremely narrow use of 2 sideboard slots
Depths is a seriously unfavoured matchup for this deck
Stifle means you have a better matchup compared to e.g. Grixis Delver with no Stifle but it's still definitely not something you want to play against
Its easy for them to combo off without playing any spell so all your Dazes, FoW etc are irrelevant, and you can't deal with on-board Marit Lage at all
Ark4n11 has put up at least one 5-0 with this list recently. The sideboard Melodies being for Marit Late specifically. I just love me some Winter Orb.
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Pteramander
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Forked Bolt
1 Winter Orb
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Island
SIDEBOARD
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Cindervines
1 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Entrancing Melody
1 Rough//Tumble
1 Forked Bolt
1 Sylvan Library
From what I've seen on stream, the Pteramanders are decent, and Goose seems reasonable in the meta right now.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Do you really want a UU sorcery speed answer to Marit Lage when they can often force an EOT activation in a world where Vapor Snag exists?
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Has anybody contemplated a Noble + Pteramander variant? Noble seems to provide good support to Pteramander by exalting an early flier and providing early mana for tempo plays and a quicker adapt. Some sort of beatdown variant to RUG with less emphasis on the disruption and more on board development that resembles the 8 dork Bant decks but with better standalone threats, more disruption, and Bolts.
Here's what I'm thinking about:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Pteramander
4 True-Name Nemesis
All evasive threats that benefit from exalted. Ptera is also a mana sink and we maximize our chances of enabling T2 TNN.
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
A bunch of cantrips to make sure we flip Delver, fill our GY for Ptera, and use all of our mana to go through our deck faster.
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Wasteland
Basic Delver disruption suite that capitalizes on cheap threats and fast mana.
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Flex slots for additional removal/disruption
Basic cheap removal suite and reach for our evasive threats.
8 Blue Fetch
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
As few lands as possible to make our first 2 land drops.
That way there is no messing around with holding mana for counters and we get to develop our board and have an insurmountable position by T4-5.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
As a quick follow up to my last post I did test the deck and it went poorly. Pteramander is slow, vulnerable, and can be really difficult to adapt. He is worse than Mandrills and Angler but has some nice perks such as flying over TNN and pitching to FoW. Pteramander is fine as a 1-2of if you play Mongoose.
On a different note, check out the new Hexdrinker and Wrenn and Six. There are finally some good cards to play RG in legacy! Hexdrinker seems like a strict upgrade to Pteramander. Wrenn basically enables recurring Wastelands, recurring removal, card advantage and a great card type to grind control decks (especially Strix control). Wrenn looks easy enough to protect against Miracles and the emblem wins the game.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Wren looks really strong. Not so sure about the level up guy. You have to spend several mana in sorcery speed to make it anymore than a 1/1.
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