[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

[Ralf]

Does anybody have experience with W6 as a mainboard card? How often do you side it out? How good is it in general?

Did you jam a few games with 2+ W6 in your 60 ?

3 seems to be the actual trend.

Don't see W6 as only a recurring "wasteland" tool but rather as a not so bad CA machine:

1) It stabilizes your manabase (recurring fetchs/lands/waste)
2) You are not forced to play the land. You can also keep it for a later BS and make CA
3) It does handle a few creatures
4) Its ulty is "badass". Real. Period.

Usually you end up with more mana on the battlefield -> you can cast bigger CMC spells (TNN, even FOW etc...)

I board it out usually vs Combo. It stays in vs Tempo / Midrange / Control.

[BKclassic]

Does anybody have experience with W6 as a mainboard card? How often do you side it out? How good is it in general?

I really like the card in the 75 but I always imagined it as a SB card for Control and specific aggro decks (Delver and DnT). In many matchups the ping ability is simply irrelevant so W6 becomes a Loam. Loam without a Waste is quite underwhelming also. I feel like drawing multiples in those matchups would be devastating.

The main point I want to make is that I can easily see how a singleton W6 makes sense (PW typing for Goyf, random hoser against x/1, WasteLoam potential, Ultimate threat against UW) but wouldn't a card like Sylvan Library make more sense as a complementary grinder than a second copy of W6 that seemingly offers diminishing returns?

The card is amazing. Even if the recurring Wastelands or the -1 ability aren't very relevant, the +1 ability at least combos with Brainstorm and you can always dome your opponent with the -1. I think that Baku_91's maindeck from the last challenge is pretty much the baseline for how RUG should look right now (List) which features the Fiery Islet for additional synergy with Wrenn and Six. There are obviously match ups where it isn't very efficacious but overall power level of the card is overwhelming. It's pretty hard to imagine running less than 2. Sylvan Library obviously has it's uses but it typically does not impact the board like Wrenn and Six.

[H]

The card is amazing. Even if the recurring Wastelands or the -1 ability aren't very relevant, the +1 ability at least combos with Brainstorm and you can always dome your opponent with the -1. I think that Baku_91's maindeck from the last challenge is pretty much the baseline for how RUG should look right now (List) which features the Fiery Islet for additional synergy with Wrenn and Six. There are obviously match ups where it isn't very efficacious but overall power level of the card is overwhelming. It's pretty hard to imagine running less than 2. Sylvan Library obviously has it's uses but it typically does not impact the board like Wrenn and Six.

Yeah, I agree here with this overall. I think the only matchup I really feel would suffer might be Miracles, given the lack of Mongoose and that Wasteland recursion is likely not ideal. However, Wrenn just ticking up is a sort of "pressure" in itself, so there is that.

Honestly, I think Delver itself might well be the worst Creature in the deck right now.

[Qweerios]

Did you jam a few games with 2+ W6 in your 60 ?

3 seems to be the actual trend.

Don't see W6 as only a recurring "wasteland" tool but rather as a not so bad CA machine:

1) It stabilizes your manabase (recurring fetchs/lands/waste)
2) You are not forced to play the land. You can also keep it for a later BS and make CA
3) It does handle a few creatures
4) Its ulty is "badass". Real. Period.

Usually you end up with more mana on the battlefield -> you can cast bigger CMC spells (TNN, even FOW etc...)

I board it out usually vs Combo. It stays in vs Tempo / Midrange / Control.

I didn't buy them yet unfortunately and at the price they are at I am not sure how many I want. Right now I am thinking 1 main and 1 side but I might try to squeeze 2 in the main and free up some SB space. I mostly play 4c Delver so I'm psyched to get a working Mongoose setup with a postboard W6 + Blossom plan against control decks. This is my understanding so far about W6:

1) It's really good against control... Mostly Miracles and Grixis/4c Strix decks because the +1 buffers brainstorm and leads to a game winning ultimate and the -1 clears Strix, Snap, and Clique making way for Mongoose.

2) It's really bad against the classic combo decks like SnT, Storm and Reanimator but very strong against Elves, Infect, and can have it's moments against Depths because the ping ability and recurring Wastelands are a thing here.

3) It's great against some aggro decks like DnT and Maverick because the ping ability kills a lot of creatures and the +1 stabilizes your manabase but not so good against Aggro decks that feature 2+ toughness creatures like Eldrazi.

You say you keep W6 against tempo decks, does that include all flavors of Delver like RUG, BUG, and Grixis? Even on the draw? It seems to me like W6 has almost no targets to ping and that without a Wasteland it isn't a win condition. I would rather have something like a single Loam for those matchups and I would probably end up boarding W6 out all the time.

With all of that said I can look at TNN and safely assume that it is great against all Control decks, all Aggro decks, and pitches to FoW against combo. If I were to play a 2/2 TNN/W6 split or something mainboard, wouldn't it be strictly better to favor more TNN over additional W6?

[Ralf]

You say you keep W6 against tempo decks, does that include all flavors of Delver like RUG, BUG, and Grixis? Even on the draw? It seems to me like W6 has almost no targets to ping and that without a Wasteland it isn't a win condition. I would rather have something like a single Loam for those matchups and I would probably end up boarding W6 out all the time.

With all of that said I can look at TNN and safely assume that it is great against all Control decks, all Aggro decks, and pitches to FoW against combo. If I were to play a 2/2 TNN/W6 split or something mainboard, wouldn't it be strictly better to favor more TNN over additional W6?

That was a rough idea for sideboarding plan.

You cannot really compare W6 to TNN.

TNN CMC is higher than W6. Sure it's on color (for FOW) but still 1 mana is huge (especially in RUG) and we are still over 22+ blue cards. Don't forget that pitching is a thing but with W6, you will end up CASTING your FOW (less CDA).
W6 does help casting TNN though.

TNN is "expected". Your opp will have a shit ton of removal for creatures (especially postboard).
W6 gives you another attack angle. PW are not always easy to answer for certain decks. And post board, it hinders your oppo (Should he pack anti PW as well, dilute his deck even further and force him to side in bad cards vs Tempo in general ?).

W6 grows Tarmo. It isn't always obvious but it was relevant here and there.

12 threats was a standard in RUG. W6 "adds" 2/3 more somehow.

It might just be a trend or not.

Test it out when you want/can.

Ralf

PS: TNN hype is high still I'm not sure we should play him (not to mention that I dislike this card).

[kombatkiwi]

Played in a 7-round event in China this weekend (repost from discord)
4 Delver
4 Goose
2 Goyf
2 TNN

4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Bolt
2 Snare
2 Pierce
2 Wrenn

8 Fetchlands
3 Tropical
3 Volcanic
4 Wasteland

SB
2 Force of Negation
2 Surgical
2 Cindervines
2 Red Blast
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Cage
1 Abrade
1 Grudge
1 Orb
1 Submerge

R1 RUG Mirror LWL
R2 Miracles WW
R3 Merfolk LWW
R4 Eldrazi LWD
R5 Maverick WW
R6 Miracles WW
R7 UR Delver LWL

Placed 23rd / ~100

Notes:
- 4th Stifle should probably be Chain Lightning
- Cindervines performed really well as usual (The Pillar effect is gamebreaking vs Miracles. My round 6 opponent cast Back to Basics into my Cindervines, and rather than use Cindervines to kill it I used the Red Blast from my hand instead, because the damage pressure is so important. Of course if I didn't have the Red Blast in hand then Cindervines killing the B2B is the perfect option to have anyway. Against Eldrazi it killed Chalice/Ballista while making Tarmogoyf big)
- I like the 2 TNN 2 Goyf main and 2 in the board
- I like all the 2-ofs in the sideboard and probably Cage. The other 4 are more flexible or a meta call. Hydroblast is a possible consideration. Veil of Summer is also one of these options that seems like a strong card but is very narrow in application, so it's difficult to find a place for it, but I am thinking about how to fit it in the deck

[H]

Notes:
- 4th Stifle should probably be Chain Lightning
- Cindervines performed really well as usual (The Pillar effect is gamebreaking vs Miracles. My round 6 opponent cast Back to Basics into my Cindervines, and rather than use Cindervines to kill it I used the Red Blast from my hand instead, because the damage pressure is so important. Of course if I didn't have the Red Blast in hand then Cindervines killing the B2B is the perfect option to have anyway. Against Eldrazi it killed Chalice/Ballista while making Tarmogoyf big)
- I like the 2 TNN 2 Goyf main and 2 in the board
- I like all the 2-ofs in the sideboard and probably Cage. The other 4 are more flexible or a meta call. Hydroblast is a possible consideration. Veil of Summer is also one of these options that seems like a strong card but is very narrow in application, so it's difficult to find a place for it, but I am thinking about how to fit it in the deck

Yeah, I played RUG in out last FNM and went 3-0-1.

I went for 3 'Goyf and 2 Mandrils instead of Mongoose. It was basically Baku_91's list from the recent Legacy Challenge. I just adjusted the sideboard some.

Obviously, small sample size, but indeed, I didn't miss the 4th Stifle. I beat a UB Delver/Ninjitsu deck, Infect, and Dragon Stompy, then taking an intentional draw, since I was rather tired and my opponent wanted to eat their food.

I think Cindervines is an absolute house of a sideboard card. I definitely would not have won vs Dragon Stompy without it. I think that, depending on your meta, Veil for Winter Orb is a possible swap, but it really depends on how many big mana decks you see.

[eldub]

Has anyone been playing with Dreadhorde Arcanist & Wrenn in RUG colors? I have been playing UR Delver in prep for GP ATL for about a month now to some solid success (fetching basic island T1 can be a real blessing).. Zombie Wizard has won me a ton of games I had no business being in.

I got my hands on a few copies of Wrenn & Six and was trying to figure out the best way to convert the solid UR delver cantrip-heavy tapout shell to RUG to support Wrenn and Goyf over Young Peezy. Here's where I landed:

Land (18)
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

Creature (12)
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Dreadhorde Arcanist
3x Tarmogoyf
2x True-Name Nemesis

Planeswalker (2)
2x Wrenn and Six

Instant (19)
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
2x Force of Negation
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt

Sorcery (9)
2x Chain Lightning
4x Ponder
4x Preordain

Sideboard (15)
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Cindervines
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Narset, Parter of Veils
1x Ashiok, Dream Render
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Flusterstorm
1x Hydroblast
3x Pyroblast
1x Winter Orb
1x Submerge

MD Blue count: 28 in order to support 6x Forces

With both Wrenn and Arcanist I find it's a lot more likely to naturally make your third land drop without having to spend a cantrip to find it which makes both TNN and hard cast Force of Negation online a turn earlier.

The deck only plays 5 Green cards main (2 Wrenn 3 Goyf), I typically lead on Volcanic >Delver/Preordain/Ponder. The goal is to use all of your mana every turn and just accrue more resources than your opponent while leaning on 10 mana-free counterspells and a fast clock. If you get to slam Arcanist or Wrenn t2 with multiple pieces of free interaction, it feels hard to lose.

I've been playing every flavor of Delver decks for ~7 years but this is the first time we actually have true card advantage. With both Arcanist and Wrenn netting you free cards, you can often find yourself in the mid-game against other fair decks with 2+ more cards in hand than your opponent before you ever cast a Brainstorm. This is certainly a luxury I've never had in Delver shells and it makes Brainstorm and Ponder feel even more busted.

This shell is similar in layout to the 4c Delver list Mengucci and others have been playing successfully, but can run on 2 less lands (I think) without the splash and does a better job of abusing Dreadhorde Arcanist. They're using Decay as their 'catch-all' where I'm leaning on more Forces. The real loss from Black to me is Plague Engineer which is an insane card in many matchups. Thoughtseize was kinda meh for me in that shell as fetching black early can be a real liability. Edict has lost a bit of turf in my opinion as the Depths decks are now running so many small creatures.

Fun fact -- Retracing Submerge multiple times from W6 emblem in response to a fetchland is the most fun interaction I've had so far. The emblem is real. Fun times with Surgical as well.

[eldub]

Noticed Liz Lynn playing what looked to be a very similar last at the Team Open last week upon review of the Twitch stream, but I guess no one else is actively down this path.

[Jesture]

Noticed Liz Lynn playing what looked to be a very similar last at the Team Open last week upon review of the Twitch stream, but I guess no one else is actively down this path.

Think it's worth noting that she seemed to be on a Hierarch version of the deck. I don't know how it compares to a more traditional threat suite, but it does seem like a good way to decrease reliance on the graveyard if you're playing Arcanist. The tradeoff is then losing some number of Mongoose/Goyf, but it definitely feels like you'd want some number of mana dorks if you're still looking to run 5 two drops.

Of note, I think UR Delver is going to be the better Arcanist deck due to the extra cantrips (4x Preordains) and being better situated to use Bolts proactively. Compared to RUG, you're losing access to green creatures and W6 but none of those are cards that make Arcanist better (could even argue some of those make Arcanist worse.)

[eldub]

My main issue with UR has nothing to do with Arcanist really, he is a house. I'm struggling with YP being lackluster in the face of W&6 being everywhere and the deck feeling too threat-light without it. The version above is playing the same suite of 1-mana cantrips and bolts, just a different 2-drop threat suite and the Trops to support it. Maybe it's just worse than UR, that's what I'm trying to work through.

I do love Noble Hierarch in general, but this is not the time for it imo.

[frenchy-man]

Hi guys,

I have the feeling that Canadian became again top tiers (even maybe the best deck currently).
W&6 really pushed back the deck to the place it deserves, and even cards like cindervine improved the deck.

My point is about nimble mongoose. It is the weakest card in the list. Am I the only one to have this feeling ?
Why are we still playing this card ?

The whole point of goose back in the days was to get a turn 1 pressure and try to get all the way with it. It was a significantly big creatures also (it was played before tarmo was printed).
But I believe power level is more important to put pressure than shroud. We all believe this : who will tell that goose is better than delver ?

Based on this, I started my tests with Hexdrinker instead of mongoose. The two alternatives to goose seem to be pteramander or Hexdrinker. I chose Hexdrinker as it put more pressure early, does not rely or deteriorate grave, optimize Mana utilization, and basically prevent the opponent to tap out.

Waiting your thoughts guys.

Regards

[Baku_91]

Hi there, this is Baku_91

Some comments,

-Hexdrinker is unplayable. W6 kills it and you need to invest too much mana in a deck that does not have it.
-Mongoose is outclassed by too many creatures these days + it's a nonbo with W6
-I'm struggling vs elves and depths, what is the best antielves card (no splash for plague engineer) ??? Any suggestion? I'm trying ee as a versatile card but not sure if it is good enough. Vs depths, I 'm trying a couple karakas.

[BKclassic]

Hi there, this is Baku_91
-I'm struggling vs elves and depths, what is the best antielves card (no splash for plague engineer) ??? Any suggestion? I'm trying ee as a versatile card but not sure if it is good enough. Vs depths, I 'm trying a couple karakas.

I feel like your last Challange list should have a pretty reasonable elves match-up. A bunch of removal, Wren and Six, and Hooting Mandrills are all pretty good against them. You could probably adjust some slots into Forked Bolt and Submerge if you don't want to go the Rough/Tumble or Blazing Volley route. I've had some success with Gilded Drake against Depths. Obviously sideboard slots are a premium given the diversity of the metagame and RUG has relative narrow sideboard options compared to 4 Color Delver.

[Baku_91]

Actually I think matchup vs elves should be decent also yes, but not favorable. You need your spell pierces/ spell snares to match their spells (don't run enough cards in the sb to sb them out), otherwise you end up with dead cards vs an horde of 1/1's :( W6 helps a lot though, even if they kill it usually ends up being a 2 or 3x1 .

Gilded Drake, interesting...but isn't Karakas just better ? Repeatable efect that cannot be discarded...

[frenchy-man]

Hi there, this is Baku_91

Some comments,

-Hexdrinker is unplayable. W6 kills it and you need to invest too much mana in a deck that does not have it.
-Mongoose is outclassed by too many creatures these days + it's a nonbo with W6
-I'm struggling vs elves and depths, what is the best antielves card (no splash for plague engineer) ??? Any suggestion? I'm trying ee as a versatile card but not sure if it is good enough. Vs depths, I 'm trying a couple karakas.

Hi Baku.

I dont really agree with the w6 argument, because then delver also dies to W6. Besides not all the decks play W6.
The mana argument is a relevant point. I guess rushing the level UP is not the good way to play the card. I will come back After more tests with it.

Agreed for goose. Any ideas to replace it ?

I also lost to elves. I decided, according to my local metagame (elves, dnt, maverick, pyromancer deck) to md 2 forked bolt. In sb cindervines helps a lot against choke.

[Baku_91]

Hi frenchy,

The difference with delver against w6 is that you play it otp t1 and have at least 1 chance to flip it. With hexdrinker, you usually allow 3 turns (unless you go all in, then you allow 2, but then you are timewalking yourself). Actually , I agree delver is also bad vs W6 , but not as bad as hexdrinker. Plus, we all know the absurd amount of games in other pairings that delver wins on its own, I do not think same can be said for Hexdrinker , too mana intensive as mentioned . If you are upping it, you are not playing cantrips / removals / counters , if you are not, then well, you have a 2/1 which does not even pitch to fow :(

Basically it goes against the principle of this deck, mana efficient creatures and then forget about them and counter/kill anything relevant that stops them. Hexdrinker is a good mana sink, but as mana sink, it is not efficient in mana terms. Hope I explained myself correctly !

Edit: about replacing gooses, I currently play 4 delver 4 goyf 2 tnn 1 hooting mandrils, working fine to me . I really think 12 creatures are too much in most pairings, so I always play 11 + one or two in the sb + sylvan library in the sb (currently a sulfur elemental in the sb, it goes in against UW decks and W taxes of course) .

[Rood]

Is there any reason most lists dont play with 4 W6. I feel like it's just so insane right now I couldn't imagine not wanting 4 in a deck like this.

[Qweerios]

Is there any reason most lists dont play with 4 W6. I feel like it's just so insane right now I couldn't imagine not wanting 4 in a deck like this.

I've played RUG and 4c Delver with up to 3 copies and I feel the opposite. I think as time goes on and the meta adapts to W6 we will see less copies in Delver decks (probably around 1-2 copies). I just don't find it very agressive for a Delver decks and it fits much better in 4c Control IMO. Yes recurring Wastes wins some games but aside from that the card is clunky in multiples and has huge diminishing returns past the first land it returns (for Delver).

I agree with you that the card is hot right now and in some metas you might want to load up on then.

[BeTeP]

Hi there, this is Baku_91

-I'm struggling vs elves and depths, what is the best antielves card (no splash for plague engineer) ??? Any suggestion? I'm trying ee as a versatile card but not sure if it is good enough. Vs depths, I 'm trying a couple karakas.

Vs elves the best thing what you can do is to run sb izzet staticaster. It is very versatile and strong because can kill multiple creatures. At best it can kill all board, and if they have decay for him it is acceptable and almost always 2 for 1 or even more. Electrikery, forked bolt and other sweepers is now that good, cause elves recovers very quick and only staticaster says - found decay in time or die. Staticaster also shines in dnt match for same reasons. I dont understand why people not running it actually.
Also in this match grafdiggers cage is thing that protects vs NO and zenith.

As for depth, if you need versatile card it is submerge (it is very strong now, like old days. Maverick, mirror, 4c delver, elves). If you need specific answers for this mathup only then you can run dominate or pithing needle (which is versatile). And i agree that Gilded Drake is a thing too.