i dont' think i would fight over the plow early on. The counterbalance lock is TOO much for this deck, especially if they float a 1 somewhere on top (they have LOTS of 1s). You need whatever you can save up to stop that from going into the board state. Often times, an early creature removal is bait for you to waste counters. Miracle players do not worry about their life total early on. They can go down to as low as 4 before really caring.
You really need destructive revelry to come in to fight off that counterbalance lock or a RIP.
I don't like price in your deck. I understand that you are on the burn plan, but think about this. This deck employs a lot of wasteland and stifles to stop duals and fetches. Your price won't get that much value if your game plan is working. Maybe you will get at most 4-6 damage in. That extra slot can be a null rod or pithing needle.
what are your opinions on playing the 54 + 2 spell pierce, +2 forked bolt and sylvan and snapcaster?
My opinion is that in a world of Abrupt Decays, a 13th creature can't hurt, be it Clique, TNN or SCM. What I like about SCM is that he brings another aspect and that it's a really versatile card. Moreover it has flash.
I already thought about playing a 4/4/3/1/1 split of Delver/Goose/Goyf/Clique/TNN, as the meta became veeerrry hostile towards Goyfs. Then again SCM is pretty weak once RiP hits the table, so I'd rather play Clique than him. Otoh, Tiago is an answer to RiP, esp. if you'd play Snare alongside your Pierces.
COtnract Killer, thanks for the detailed report and congrats on money finish!
Yeah that probably should have been a no brainer. Even though it only hits 4 cards those are the same 4 that pierce hits, but revelry still works if it resolves. Surprisingly it wasn't as dead I think because he did have x tarfires and Warren Weirding. This card was completely off my radar and his argument behind it is it's a edict effect for TNN + it can add more creatures to his board. It's some really nice tech that despite it never being cast would have completely caught me off guard. If I saw Thorn of Amethyst I would definitely have added the Revelry and maybe the Grudge probably taking out a pierce or something.
I have no idea where Tales is so no hahaha. It's 50/50 in the fact that every card they play is high impact and must be answered:
Deathrite
Dark Confidant
Stonforge
Snapcaster for value (must be countered allowing them to have multiple abrupt decays is just us forfeiting hahaha)
Jitte
TNN
Liliana
Supreme Verdict
Jace
Batterskull
All of these cards we really can't let resolve without having either an immediate bolt or other disruption like stifle for Liliana edict. Goose gets less shroud-y sideboarded when they have something like 3 lilana and probably 2-3 supreme verdicts or Toxic Deluge. Despite having the mana denial plan they do run 23 lands plus the Deathrite suite so I've found the it hard to execute and doesn't always work. Sure sometimes you get the nuts stifle into daze into wasteland threat pass, but it's not always that easy. It's also a high variance deck where sometimes their own deck gives them mana issues. Other times they live the dream OTP and have turn 2 Liliana. It's not a horrible matchup, but I definitely wouldn't say we're favored at the very least it's 50/50 maybe slightly favored for us if we're OTP.
This is the other thing about this matchup up the opponents skill level. They have to put a lot of thought into what lands they fetch alone. If they try to double up on duals to play around wasteland they can end up with dead cards like Abrupt decay in their hand. That's probably just the beginning of a very complex set of decision trees with something as simple as deciding to lead with Deathrite or Thoughtseize and gets more complicated as the game progresses.
I think that the single sylvan is great I've had a lot of success with it. I'm a bit more skeptical about the snapcaster. While he does allow card advantage which is something our deck lacks he's also mana intensive. As a one of he seems fine, but might lack luster in the tempo mirrors or playing against something like Jund. A single wasteland can turn him from a 2/1 + 1 mana spell to measly 2/1.
Unfortunatley it wasn't a money finish. Prizes paid out to top 25 I think and I was 17th before round 7. If I had gone 5/2 winning my last round I probably would have made prizes and maybe top 8, because I think we were right at the cutting point where 1 x/2 would make it in. Sadly though BUG Delver ruined my dreams. An unfavorable match up turned worse by not having Submerge. Man I got wrecked double bolt to deal with Tombstalker only to see him deploy two delvers the next turn
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Well folks, it seems that Burn is now an actual contender thanks to Eidolon of the Great Revel and burn players tightening up their lists (they run Searing Blaze now, making it harder to just ride Delver to victory). The match up is difficult enough that I think I need to adapt my main deck. Gitaxian Probe is a lot worse now, so I am going to be trying cutting Probe for Spell Snare. I am going to to give this list a try:
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Sylvan Library
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
SB:
3 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Grafdigger's Cage
-The Sylvan Library in the main deck isn't great against burn, but neither is the fourth Stifle. It certainly might just end up as the 4th Stifle or possibly Preordain.
-2 Vendilion Clique in the SB to help against Show and Tell, where Spell Snare isn't very good. No room for Sulfur Elemental so I am running 2 Forked Bolt in the MD, I'll take my chances against Death and Taxes.
-It's irritating that this development has happened about a week before SCG Worcester (which I plan on going to), I was pretty firm on my last list. I'm trying to think of other tactics that might be effective against Burn. Zuran Orb and Blue Elemental Blast seem too narrow to be playable. Scavanging Ooze doesn't really seem good enough. Anything else I am missing?
Last edited by BKclassic; 06-27-2014 at 02:38 PM.
I think you're quite right. It's important to play enough removal for their small critters, but Chain Lightning is not an option, thus FB. I like Snare, it stops PoP and Searing Blaze, also Eidolon;, it's really good card against burn.
I thik SnT should be fine matchup, and DnT can be won on backs of removal and Rough, no need for Elemental.
ZOrb is narrow, Hydroblast I wouldn't even consider, unless my meta would be full of Burn and Goblins. SCooze seems not strong enough, as there wion't be taht many guys in gy, otho it may buy a few life points and thus negate a bolt or two, plus it works like a walking hate in gy matchups and/or mirror. I'd try it, if you have a chance to test it, but I don't think it's a no-brainer.
You are kidding right?
I mean we have a good burn matchup already,no need for low impact cards like hydroblast or even zuran orb.
Almost every single card in our deck is great against mono red:
- Tarmogoyf and nimble mongoose(treshed) dominate the board against goblin guided and eidolon.
- stifle is a hardcounter against rift bolt
- all of our countermagic are supereffective,even daze because it can "counter" price of progress.
Don't see a reason to waste sideboardslots against this mu.
This is not right.
Although I'm against narrow cards, I feel like saying "Burn is a positive matchup" is exagerating. Esp. 8 Bolts Thresh is pretty weak to it, as they can play easily around our countermagic while using our CLs, if only we play them. Searing Blaze is really annoying, Mongoose does nothing in the first turns, they laugh at our 2 Pierces, Delver dies while leaving stack, so it's up to Goyf to hold the ground, but their critters are one-drops and/or utility dorks, be it Guide, Grim, Eidolon or the one with vanishin.Dazing a PoP? Waht are you talking about? I don't remember the last time I did it, most of the burn I met simply slow-comboed me with "three-per-turn" dmg output and laughed at any taxing counters without actually playing a single PoP. Heck, I'm not even sure if they play the card, as it's pretty situational and can be Daze-ridiculed, while Searing Blaze is nigh always live.
With Guide and Eidolon, with their lots of 3dmg spells, they get you down to twelve before you even notice anything and that's when the real sweating starts, esp. if you need to play Trop for critters, Volc to have a red open for Guide and another dual to pay for Pierce/BS. (You may dick around with one land, of course, but then you're not playing Magic anymore and simply succumb to their alpha status.) That's when "must-counters" start to fly around and Goyf does very little to stop them; PoP and Fireblast being the most important, but basically each and every their spell needs to be solved.
I guess Burn doesn't even play Suspend Bolt anymore, as I don't remember Stifling it. No fetchlands, too. So we got a set of dead cards, then another set of cards that may easily backfire, then two sets of 1/1 dudes, one that makes nothing before turn4-5 and the other that feeds Searing Blaze, we got Force of Hymn to Tourach Oh I Countered Your Bolt And Dealt Myself One that needs to be kept for Blast or PoP (unless you're lucky enough to sit on double Waste and/or have lots of Dazes in hand when they PoP; but then again having Dazes at ready in the mid-late game quite sucks, and it means you didn't have them when they mattered), so the only critter that really matter is a Goyf which is kind of a burn trigger and the only counterspells that really matter are Spell Pierces in early game and FoWs later.
Sky isn't falling yet, but the mere fact Burn won the last SCG needs to mean something.
Back in the day when I was playing Canadian Threshold I had a Sensei's Divining Top in the mainboard, alongside 3 more Tops and 3-4 Counterbalances in the sideboard. Burn didn't stand a chance. Good old days :D
Greetings
I've played the new burn match up at my local store and while it's hard it's not horrible. This was also with me running Chain lightning which surprisingly isn't that bad. They usually tap out the first few turns to play out there grims, guides, and Eidolon. This is when you want the Chain lightning you just need to time it right to either bolt it or use Chain lightning. Goyf also got a lot better surprisingly because now if eidolon is in the grave they can't block Goyf with Guide and add a bolt to kill him. They have to have double bolt now to kill goyf.
Another thing is that if they're running the same list from Las Vegas they play 7 fetches which is completely unnecessary and gives our stifles a bit more value. Eidolon is also weird in that it's a universal effect. When I was playing against them I passed rift resolved shocked him in addition to bolting me and then I bolted Eidolon snagging another 2 damage to their face.
Uh, explain please? You can't bolt Eidolon and make them take two. Is it just odd sentence structure?
Oh, and they run fetches to feed Grim Lavamancer and hold Searing Blaze landfall triggers. It's not all that crazy.
I've made a few updates to the primer, specifically to the Miracles and DeathBlade match-ups, as well as a section dealing with only Gitaxian Probe in the first post. I'd be happy for any and all feedback, the goal is nothing less than the greatest primer on the Source :)
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went 3 - 3 last sunday, 50+ participants Cerberus Legacy Open...
deck felt solid, some days you arent just lucky...
crits = 4delvers/3goose/3goyfs/1 vcliq/1tnn
spells = 2 pierce/1 snare/1fice/1tarfire/1forkedbolt
sb = 2needles, 2 rough, 1 tnn, 1 revelry, 1grudge, 1 surgical, 3pyroblasts, 2 submerges, 1 graf, 1 pierce
0-2 DnT
very comfortable upon numerous playtesting..instead of sulfur, i know with TNN, it can wreck this very deck..2 games i wasnt able to draw any volcanics is simply horendous! game 2 mulled to 5 after havin my 1st seven and six cards with 2 wastelands...even my needles didnt show up..just crazy!
2-0 cephalid breakfast
delvers were fast, and after him resolving grand arbiters..during my turn non survived, thus i was able to interact on his very impt turns...
2-1 sneak show
lost game 1 via keeping crit heavy hand...1st turns thought he was urburn or patriot when he landed tomb, then start comboing up...games 2-3 my lone cliq showed up and every keep i have a needle at hand..
1-2 bug delver
won game1, grindy matchup..when i drew fice to tap tombstalker for the kill via numerous mongoose, game 2 was fast for him with 2 delvers and goyfs..game 3 where we wastlanded each other and game went top deck mode...4x we went blank until he drew fetch and bstorm ftw..i didnt able to recover...prior to that i drew waste and cast a needle for verdant...what he drew was delta : (...i always watchout the games we played and listed the deck showed multiple verdants instead of deltas..
2-1 esperdeathblade
lost game1, tempoe’d him game 2, he had stps but no use for geese, game 3 where i had him down to 8...i revelried his jitte, and he resolved a batterskull...i managed to put down my tnn i which surprised him..2 turns i got my other tnn and that was it..he told me he didint expect me to have that card in my deck haha!
1-2 mud
really hate this matchup, game 1 i didnt kept a fow, with cantrips and pair of pierces i thought i could make it..he's on the play and BAM! that's it...chalice 1 and i conceded...game 2 it was the same but this time my early pierce connected..goyfs and cliq crushed him...game 3, we were talking that one of us might still get into T16 for some consolation prizes...he already mulled to 4, and im very confident with what i kept at 6...bstorm, pierce, delver, bolt, land, land.....then he drew ancient tomb still with a chalice! wow! 2 times i fetched and looking at my topdeck twice...it was a grudge.
im still very confident with what the deck has to offer, i knew i never made any misplays (except for mulling to FOW everytime im facing MUD haha, just a crazy draw for that pilot), it was just that day the deck didnt wanna play...missed very important pcs on very impt sitautions..
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The DNT match-up is 50/50 for me, its honestly who ever gets the better draws. We should get the better draws but that deck has so many tax affects it constraints the hell out of our deck. I lost to it the last tournament I played in bc game 1 he got lucky and landed a BS, game 2 went to 5 cards and the son of a bitch got 3 wastelands. oh and flickerwisping my only goyf twice was good too. I think I want to play 2 needles, 2 rough/tumble, 1 sulfur elemental and 1 grudge I want to board in. I really never worry about RIP bc they just never seem to land it against me for whatever reason. I've been lucky there, as for what I take out I prefer to take out 4 fow's and the dazes sometimes. Stifle is too good and I never stifle a vial trigger no matter how hard they try and bait you to waste them. save your stifles for wastelands and SFM or BS, oh and sometimes flickerwisp depending on the game.
Their rift bolt had resolved dealing 2 damage to them via Eidolon. Therefore my Bolt turned into "deal 3 damage to target creature or player and each player takes 2 damage". More to the point eidolon is a universal effect and while it's really bad for us it does effect them too. Yeah I know the fetches have a use, but they could just run better burn spells I think, but that's just my opinion.
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