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Thread: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

  1. #781
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Emo View Post
    I do like this list as it seems very competitive and I agree with Young Pyromancer (I just don't think mongoose cuts it in the meta anymore regardless of the disynergy with Treasure cruise); however, concerning sb, I am guessing the Jitte is meant to answer elves and D&T, are there any better sb options for these mathcups?
    Yeah, I'm not such a fan of the SB this guy was running, but Jitte instead of Rough//Tumble makes sense. After all, you are running Pyromancer instead of Mongoose, so you want something that is one-sided and won't Wrath your own board. Jitte is pretty great with the tokens on YP and definitely a blowout if you can get it active. Only problem is that it requires quite a bit of setup. Once active though it's pretty much GG against anything running small creatures.

    Alternative removal options: Forked Bolt, Fire//Ice, Electrickery, Sudden Demise, Grim Lavamancer (but has tension with TCruise).

  2. #782

    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    We need a sustitute for the Mongoose, but Iīthink YP isnīt it. It isnīt good enough. Mongoose gave us all we needed. Also, YP would get worse or Spell Pierces and Stifles. Surely, it would be a wrong tempo strategy.

    This man follows doing well with the traditional strategy, although I donīt understand why he uses 4 Volcanics: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14749&iddeck=109216

    I think Iīm just going to continue with the traditional list, including an Envelope to improve TC-Delver match up and Combo in general.

    18 lands
    8 fetches
    3 trop
    3 volcanic
    4 wasteland

    12 crits
    4 delver
    4 goose
    4 goyf

    31 instant/sorcery
    4 brainstorm
    4 ponder
    4 daze
    4 force of will
    4 bolt
    4 stilfe
    1 Forked Bolt
    3 spell pierce
    2 Gitaxian Probe

    SB
    2 submerge
    3 pyroblast
    1 flusterstorm
    1 destructive revelry
    1 ancient grudge
    2 rough and tumble
    1 sylvan library
    1 Vendilion Clique
    1 Envelope
    2 grafdigger's cage

    I think it is fine.

  3. #783
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by SORO View Post
    I donīt understand why he uses 4 Volcanics[/url]
    Less mulligans; opposing Wastelands and other mana denial tactics. It's perfectly valid approach and actually what I usually do when I run RUG.

  4. #784

    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by wcm8 View Post
    But Shardless is typically one of the hardest matchups for RUG. Delver mirror matches can go either way, but if one deck is drawing 3 cards from a single spell and the other isn't, my bet goes towards the deck playing Ancestral. Bob Huang's UR deck is only the first iteration of 'Format: Delver Cruise'; give it a little time and the format will figure out the best configuration(s).

    Also, unlike Ancestral Vision, TCruise can't be Stifled, nor is its casting forecasted. So you need to have the Spell Pierce/Envelop/REB in hand or you're going to quickly get behind. This card hits RUG where it hurts -- that is, after the first several turns of initial volley and each player just about emptying their hand, this is when TC gets cast and refuels. Yes, RUG will still occasionally steal wins via Stifle/Daze/Wasteland, but the midgame becomes a much more frightening prospect. You won't have nearly as many games where you get to win on the back of a Mongoose as your opponent is in draw-go-mode.

    That's why I am posing the question: what decks in Legacy does RUG beat where a straight-UR configuration wouldn't simply be better? I'd rather be running UR against Miracles, Shardless, Esper, etc... because you have a bunch of trump cards, your threats aren't reliant on the graveyard, and you get to run TCruise with no drawback. Do Mongoose and Goyf really trump having access to Blood Moon, Price of Progress, and no drawback with Cruising?
    Right I understand that RUG Delver operates on a 1 to 1 exchange between you and the opponent. If the opponent draws 3 cards for the price of one this balance is thrown out the window. Shardless Bug is definitely one of our worst match ups, but that doesn't change the fact that if they have no mana we don't care about how many cards they have. So long as you can get the mana denial strategy against shardless (bolt drs, wasteland or 2 and a good stifle) they end up walking into the rest of our cards (daze, spell pierce, etc).

    My point is just because Treasure cruise disrupts the way RUG likes to play it does strengthen it in some respects. Any deck play TC will be playing it mid to late game. If RUG does what it's suppose to do and keeps it in the early game by turn 5 or so they're almost dead. Ideally they'll be drawing those 3 cards a turn too late.

    TC is definitely a game changer, but not unbeatable. I'm also not trying to sound like the atypical rug delver plan: stifle, wasteland, beat face. My point is if our deck excels at what it's supposed to do by keeping the game in the early stages we don't care about TC.

    Goose lacks luster compared to what it used to be, but it's still better than most other options. I mean Young Pyromancer does have pseudo shroud, but you do have to invest spells in him to make that relevant. That also means that if the opponent kills him on the spot like they should then he does nothing. We don't have another good shroud threat that can dodge removal like goose. It's a necessity in RUG to keep our threat alive and slamming goose T1 or T2 and not having to worry about protecting it is exactly what we want.

    Personally I think the stock lists with an added one or two TC or DTT are still the best choice. Nothing has changed our deck really or it's place in the meta. There's a reason RUG has been a top contender (or at least consistent) in the meta for the past 3 years. So long as people play fetch lands and greedy 3 color mana bases RUG works regardless of what you're playing against.

  5. #785
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I haven't had a chance to test Treasure Cruise but I am inclined to agree with Contract Killer. If you want to play RUG and you want to play Stifles, you definitely want to play Nimble Mongoose. You need quality one drops to apply pressure with. Just kill them before they can take over the game. True-Name Nemesis is already gives our opponents all kinds of virtual card advantage, and if you are a RUG players worth your salt, you've learned how not to get blown out by that card. Granted TNN does cost 3 instead of 1, but we can at least interact with Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm in addition to Red Blasts. Flusterstorm in the SB merits stronger consideration as well as Scavengine Ooze in the SB or to replace a Tarmogoyf or 2 in the MD. Jamming the basically same 75 is still correct despite TNN, and I think that is likely to still be the case. Just play better. We'll see though.

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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I went 4-0 tonight at my local, playing RUG Mandrills. Even though it's 1am, I'm fuelled by coffee and the Flashdance Soundtrack to write a tournament report.

    The list:

    4 Hooting Mandrills
    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Delver of Secrets

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Force of Will
    4 Stifle
    4 Daze
    3 Spell Snare
    2 Spell Pierce
    2 Fire/Ice
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Wooded Foothills
    4 Wasteland

    SB: 2 Cursed Totem
    SB: 1 Krosan Grip
    SB: 2 Submerge
    SB: 1 Null Rod
    SB: 2 Rough // Tumble
    SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
    SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
    SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
    SB: 1 Sylvan Library

    I'm not going to be writing a game by game analysis, but I played against Infect (2-1), Maverick (2-1), Dreadnought (2-1), and UWr Delver with Treasure Cruise (2-1).

    Now, while this isn't a representation of the meta at large, I could still make assertions as to how much I liked Hooting Mandrills.

    Mandrills was always, except once, a 4/4 Trample for G. I never had to shrink my Goyfs ever and it pounded over TNN's and Mother of Runes' protection. Swords was a pain, but having a creature that didn't die to TNN like Mongoose was great. Goose does come down Turn 1, but it frequently doesn't go the distance. Mandrills provides a ton of pressure and only dies to STP (like most threats in the format), but doesn't get hit by Decay. As well, even if Rest in Peace comes down, he's still a 4/4, unlike Goyf or Mongoose.

    The sideboard felt very solid. I played two Cursed Totem to really get a feel to see if I wanted to play the card. Frequently, against our mana denial, DRS is really good, and so are cards like Grim Lavamancer, Knight of the Reliquary, SFM, etc. I also feared Elves a bit, so I threw it in and liked it very much. It might just be a singleton in the future, but I wanted to see it.

    Any questions? Let me know.

    -Matt

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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Nice to see Cursed Totem find a home, that card is sick! :)

  8. #788

    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    I went 4-0 tonight at my local, playing RUG Mandrills. Even though it's 1am, I'm fuelled by coffee and the Flashdance Soundtrack to write a tournament report.

    The list:

    4 Hooting Mandrills
    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Delver of Secrets

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Force of Will
    4 Stifle
    4 Daze
    3 Spell Snare
    2 Spell Pierce
    2 Fire/Ice
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Wooded Foothills
    4 Wasteland

    SB: 2 Cursed Totem
    SB: 1 Krosan Grip
    SB: 2 Submerge
    SB: 1 Null Rod
    SB: 2 Rough // Tumble
    SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
    SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
    SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
    SB: 1 Sylvan Library

    I'm not going to be writing a game by game analysis, but I played against Infect (2-1), Maverick (2-1), Dreadnought (2-1), and UWr Delver with Treasure Cruise (2-1).

    Now, while this isn't a representation of the meta at large, I could still make assertions as to how much I liked Hooting Mandrills.

    Mandrills was always, except once, a 4/4 Trample for G. I never had to shrink my Goyfs ever and it pounded over TNN's and Mother of Runes' protection. Swords was a pain, but having a creature that didn't die to TNN like Mongoose was great. Goose does come down Turn 1, but it frequently doesn't go the distance. Mandrills provides a ton of pressure and only dies to STP (like most threats in the format), but doesn't get hit by Decay. As well, even if Rest in Peace comes down, he's still a 4/4, unlike Goyf or Mongoose.

    The sideboard felt very solid. I played two Cursed Totem to really get a feel to see if I wanted to play the card. Frequently, against our mana denial, DRS is really good, and so are cards like Grim Lavamancer, Knight of the Reliquary, SFM, etc. I also feared Elves a bit, so I threw it in and liked it very much. It might just be a singleton in the future, but I wanted to see it.

    Any questions? Let me know.

    -Matt
    I palyed Mandrills at a local tournament and went 2-2. I lost to infect and got crushed by elfs in the first round. My matches aganst two Miracles was really stable though, and I did not find Mandrills to be a drawback really. I think the aded pressure makes up for him as a swordstarget. I play 4 Thought Scour in main so maybe thats helps to play him early. The only time Mandrills was a problem was when he got submerged against infect post board. I think that he could be really good choice for decks not playing treassure cruise and maybe there lies the problem. I played four Cruise in main, with the back up of thought scour, and Cruise really felt insane. Sitting with 7 cards on hand aginst a Miracle player with 2 cards on hand is a weird feeling. If you cast one cruise you will soon follow it with another one at least if you play Thought Scour. I have a theory that the future will revolve quite a lot about being the player whom resolve cruise first or stop the opponent from doing it. Does Mandrills fit in that plan or does another creature work better? There is a winnig Rug with Cruises here that uses Pyromancers. [URL="http://www.mtgdecks.net/events/view/15429"] It seems like the winning "thresh like" decks in big events last week all have one thing in common: They play cruise. UR winns a lot now but i suspect thats anny thresh like deck can do well. The question is how does a really good RUG list look that exploits cruise? Personally at this point in testing I beleeve that the idea that "Cruise is a good card thats rewards us for just playing magic" is wrong. I think its way better and needs a proper shell so it can get really exploited. 6 cards aginst a controll deck with 2 cards in hand should not really happen if you play a thresh style deck. Just a few thoughts.
    Rest in peace litle Mongoose. :(

    Mole
    Last edited by WhacAMole; 10-03-2014 at 08:25 AM.

  9. #789

    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I really like the Hooter. Dodging Abrupt and Bolt is great

  10. #790
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by WhacAMole View Post
    I palyed Mandrills at a local tournament and went 2-2. I lost to infect and got crushed by elfs in the first round. My matches aganst two Miracles was really stable though, and I did not find Mandrills to be a drawback really. I think the aded pressure makes up for him as a swordstarget. I play 4 Thought Scour in main so maybe thats helps to play him early. The only time Mandrills was a problem was when he got submerged against infect post board. I think that he could be really good choice for decks not playing treassure cruise and maybe there lies the problem. I played four Cruise in main, with the back up of thought scour, and Cruise really felt insane. Sitting with 7 cards on hand aginst a Miracle player with 2 cards on hand is a weird feeling. If you cast one cruise you will soon follow it with another one at least if you play Thought Scour. I have a theory that the future will revolve quite a lot about being the player whom resolve cruise first or stop the opponent from doing it. Does Mandrills fit in that plan or does another creature work better? There is a winnig Rug with Cruises here that uses Pyromancers. [URL="http://www.mtgdecks.net/events/view/15429"] It seems like the winning "thresh like" decks in big events last week all have one thing in common: They play cruise. UR winns a lot now but i suspect thats anny thresh like deck can do well. The question is how does a really good RUG list look that exploits cruise? Personally at this point in testing I beleeve that the idea that "Cruise is a good card thats rewards us for just playing magic" is wrong. I think its way better and needs a proper shell so it can get really exploited. 6 cards aginst a controll deck with 2 cards in hand should not really happen if you play a thresh style deck. Just a few thoughts.
    Rest in peace litle Mongoose. :(

    Mole
    Fair enough. I want to put Cruise in, but you realistically can't have both Mandrills and Cruise in the same deck, unless you're powering it with Probes and Thoughtscours. Mongoose hasn't been good for a while, but I think everyone's just been playing it since there was realistically nothing better to replace it with.

    I think RUG doesn't have to play Cruise, but it could be hard keeping up if everyone else is playing it. I know I'm playing 3 Blasts in the board and expected to see it, and I did. Most of those decks also run very mana light, so usually spell pierce can also do some work.

    Fire/Ice was better than I remember, as well. Tapping out a Dreadnought to get some extra points in was sick, and it cantrips! :D

    -Matt

  11. #791

    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    Fair enough. I want to put Cruise in, but you realistically can't have both Mandrills and Cruise in the same deck, unless you're powering it with Probes and Thoughtscours. Mongoose hasn't been good for a while, but I think everyone's just been playing it since there was realistically nothing better to replace it with.

    I think RUG doesn't have to play Cruise, but it could be hard keeping up if everyone else is playing it. I know I'm playing 3 Blasts in the board and expected to see it, and I did. Most of those decks also run very mana light, so usually spell pierce can also do some work.

    Fire/Ice was better than I remember, as well. Tapping out a Dreadnought to get some extra points in was sick, and it cantrips! :D

    -Matt
    Would Dig through time be better for RUG shell? For when you are fishing for a late game bolt?

  12. #792
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by hovercraft View Post
    I really like the Hooter. Dodging Abrupt and Bolt is great
    FYI, Mongoose has always been immune to both of these spells, as well as Submerge, Jace, and Swords to Plowshares.

    I'm still debating Mandrills vs. Pyromancer vs. Mongoose myself... but I suspect that Pyromancer is the way forward.

  13. #793
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Sure but Goose is still subpar much of the time. Many times, even though he dodges removal, he cannot swing through many of the creatures in the format that really matter. Mandrills can shrink goyfs if need be and trample is key for squeaking in those last few points of damage.

    Young pyro seems better if youre playing a full set of probes, but the meta seems hostile for it because of TNN and Elves. ZP still sees some play, or will see more play if everyone jumps on the UR delver wagon. It's hard to say.

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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    but the meta seems hostile for it because of TNN and Elves. ZP still sees some play, or will see more play if everyone jumps on the UR delver wagon. It's hard to say.
    +1, urdecks will fall to these kinds of mass hate, with us carrying Roughs too. If we go YP plan, then we need to reconfigure our sb choices to..which i no have plan of touching them yet, my meta is elves, dnts, tnns...and theyre far more stronger compared to tokens that YP makes..

    grats on the great finish with your new brew! i might test these mandrils too, very soon with my kirds in my RUG Kingkong deck.
    i dont like playing tom cruise with my nimbles, i'll just watch this show, and see where our rug goes...mandrils, cruises or whatever is doin great lately.
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    At least I'm glad that both those new cards are commons. It would suck to have a new Goyf and Force.

  16. #796

    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I still think there is nothing wrong with this deck, but if people want to load on Treasure Cruises, it might be necessary to change the creatures configuration. In this case, H. Mandrils are not the solution, since they also conflicts with TC.
    Maybe it is time to look back.

    The first version of this deck (2007~2008) played only 8 threats (4 mongoose, 4 goyf). Still back in the day when this archetype already existed, but before Delver of Secrets, there where versions with 10 threats (link).

    So, with the amount of CA that TC brings, perhaps we can run less threats. How about 4 Delvers, 4 Goyfs and 2 TNN/Cliques? That would leave us with 8 flex slots, that could became 3-4 TC plus whatever else you want. Although I like Cliques more, TNN may be better due to its resilience, since we will not have mongoose anymore. Well, just an idea.

  17. #797
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    or instead of mongooses, we can run MSS (monastery swiftsspear) on a heavy cantrip and burn built to support TC..
    TNN should be an inclusion since all our crits now are targettable, or we could just run 13-14 crits to keep pressure.
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  18. #798

    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Indeed, but at then there will be a lack of slots for the cantrips, plus TCs, plus burn. This will lead us to the next step, which would be to cut Stifle. From that point on, it would become the UR Deck from last SCG, but with Goyfs instead of Pyromancer. Don't get me wrong, I think that can also be a valid choice, and it will take a lot of tests to know what will be the way foward. Actually, that will even depend on how the metagame will settle. However, when I made the suggestion about reducing threat count, I was thinking about how to incorporate the Treasure Cruises, while still keeping the Stifle-Wasteland-Daze trifecta.

  19. #799
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Cutting Stifle seems pretty terrible, in my opinion, and here's why:

    1) We're on the mana denial plan with Daze, Pierce, and Wasteland. Stifle is just icing on the cake.

    2) Miracle cards like Entreat the Angels suck balls. Frankly, we have few ways to win in the late game against Miracles. As well, against a bunch of the midrange decks, SFM decks, and even Jace decks, Stifle can be VERY useful. Stifling the Rest in Peace trigger is also pretty sweet. Why not run it? I got to Stifle a Sylvan Library trigger that won me the game, and that alone was hot sauce.

    I think Stifle is really good value against decks that grind us in attrition wars. If SFM comes down and grabs Batterskull, that can be bad. If we stifle the ETB trigger, or the living weapon trigger, we can be sitting pretty.

    I also loved having Spell Snare. Getting to muck SFM's, Counterbalances, and many others felt like 2009 all over again.

    -Matt

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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Damn you Hooting Mandrills, dodging my Pernicious Deed.

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