Quick question: When do you guys board in Life from the Loam (and what usually goes out for it)?
I like to board it in whenever I think a deck is vulnerable to wasteland.Originally Posted by keys
What comes out depends on your list and matchup though.
Personally I've never been a huge fan of it. Most of the match ups you want it in are other delver decks that are prone to wasteland right? The problem with that is most other delver decks are running deathrite. Now I know if deathrite is active we're probably losing and that's a fair point. That aside essentially in all the match ups you want it you get a very small window to try and apply it. On top of that it's completely dead without waste. It just has always seemed to cute for me, but that's my personal preference.
So I'm curious about a marginal option in RUG Delver that I'm sure has been debated to death already. What fetches should I run?
This is partially dependent on if your build is running stifle and for the sake of argument let's assume that it is. The next question then is since we are running stifle Misty Rainforest is the most closely associated with RUG and should not be ran if concealment is the desired effect.*
Now that the basics are out of the way that leaves us with the following options:
Wooded Foothills
Flooded Strand
Polluted Delta
Scalding Tarn
lastly the "this does not matter" option
For starters wooded foothills. At first glance this looks great, but I'm not sure if it's worth it. Opponents will perceive this as possibly Jund even though they run Verdant Catacombs and Bloodstained Mires predominantly. Maybe they'll think it's goblins which they'll probably dismiss due to it's lack of play. This leaves me thinking anyone who carefully analyzes the play of wooded foothills go will summarize the player is on RUG Delver lol. This is the exact opposite effect I'm desiring. A really good player and friend of mine also noted that wooded foothills into either Tropical Island or Volcanic Island solidifies me as being RUG Delver which seems less than ideal.
Flooded strand as the next option brings to the table the bluffing UWX Stoneblade or Miracles. If we fetch Tropical Island then people will probably be able to put us on RUG since no one plays Bant. Fetching up a Volcanic Island though does allow us to conceal what we're truly playing a bit more than wooded foothills does.
Polluted Delta can represent a variety of decks. Everything from Grixis Delver to combo to BUG Delver/Shardless etc. I think this is a huge reason to play at least some number of Deltas. Especially being able to fetch Volcanic into Ponder as a strong combo bluff. I'm also not 100% sure since everyone I play against knows what I'm on a mile away, but I feel people will be more inclined to jump the gun if they see Delta go.*
Finally Scalding Tarn offers an incentive because it's the second fetch most closely related to combo. In addition it bluffs Grixis builds well. The one issue I have with it is Scalding Tarn is also closely associated with RUG Delver.
These are all marginal and only relevant turns 1 - 2, but I would people's honest opinions. Currently I've been running Flooded Strands and Polluted Deltas, but the tournaments I've normally gone to are small (lots of scouting) or people already know me. With a large event coming up where neither of those cases will be relevant I'm curious what your thoughts are and what your go to fetch configuration would be. Currently I'm thinking about: 4 Scalding Tarn, 4 Polluted Delta. I am wondering if there's a better mix of fetches that would be more misleading and thus do a better job at throwing the opponent off.
* This post is loosely based on Drew Levin's RUG Delver Primer. I definitely agree that Misty Rainforest screams RUG Delver, but Scalding Tarn I feel can strongly be associated with Storm or Show and Tell variants.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...er-Primer.html
Might be a local thing, but Wooded Foothills is definitely not a signal for RUG Delver. The top tier green based decks are Elves, R/G lands and Infect while Burn and Imperial Painter are both base red.
Different fetch combinations are useful for bluffing different things. If you wanted a stronger game against fast combo, I'd register the Foothills as a R/G fetch is much more appealing to throw a risky hand into than any blue fetch.
If you're trying to get people to play into Stifle, you could roll with some combination of Polluted Delta and either Tarn or Misty to bluff another delver variant.
Strand/Delta is what I've seen most people go with, as the deck plays neither white or black. That said, it's pretty telling of RUG/BUG when someone leads t1 Strand Delver, at which point I'm not sure if you're really getting an advantage from your fetch selection.
Thank you. I've always felt the same, but I keep seeing it in decklists. Either I'm misjudging its usefulness or they're playing the mirror a lot more often than I am...?
i love wooded foothills, since it always presents a non blue deck especially when your not known piloting blue based decks. several times ive experienced my opponents to quickly fetch upon me landing a foothill, only to be stifled. my current configuration in my rug deck is (4wooded, 1 tarn, 1 misty, 1delta, 1strand)
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Maybe I just overthink how obvious or obscure wooded foothills is. I just feel that the decks it represents Elves, RG Lands, Infect and Burn all have an absurd amount of one drops. This makes me feel that foothills go despite the colors being concealed would lead to opponents thinking something is up.
I think the best way to describe Loam is that you have to build your whole game around that card. There's a lot of things that have to be going right for it to be good:
We need pressure on the board
We can't be behind ie they have goyf we have delver
Deathrite can't be in play
and worst of all we can't be behind
All those requirements have to be met before even casting loam will do anything. On top of that one should also consider what could go wrong if you're at parity. If they counter it and land a Goyf can you recover? Which after saying that I think it can just be classified in the "win more" column.
It's definitely a powerful sideboard card and I might just be to apprehensive at leaving games to chance (yes I know that sounds hypocritical). I've never really bothered to test it thoroughly, but it's still very powerful and worth consideration if you know there will be lots of delver, shardless, esper stoneblade.
Yeah I think I might just over simplify what wooded foothills pass could be perceived as. I do think on the other hand that delta should be other fetch. At worst you fetch up trop/volc and can represent bug/grixis respectively. The other possibility is you get to play delta go and bluff ANT which might incentivize some players to think they need to find a threat quickly and carelessly fetch into our stifle.
Really depends on the deck. Obviously having DRS with Loam allows the broken:
T1 Fetch, DRS
T2, Wasteland, Loam back two lands
I've gotten scoops to that opening. In RUG.. it's a way to break parity if you're both drawing dead due to each of you countering/killing eachother's stuff. Loam is pretty live IMO, on that board state because you can threaten them to have no lands for the rest of the game and then start finding your threats after you've gotten to that point.
Loam is also much more powerful next to planeswalkers (liliana) not only due to synergy, but so you can do multiple things a turn.
I think in RUG i'd avoid the 1-of loam for a Library. Less reliable for card advantage, but applicable to a wider range of matchups; even against combo/miracles at times (so you can draw gas)
EDIT: It also helps flip late delvers, find land when you've been wasted out, find gas when you're flooding, etc..
What you think about this decklest with KIORA?
I will test it tonight. It's of course a variation of it with Orcs+Kiora package ramp combo on turn 2.
Always wanted to play orcs and i think they stick in a Delver deck cuz of colors and counters.
Kiora goes well with the orc , you untap him and use him to defend here for 1 turn (or more).
You will also have one mana free to cast Delver + Kiora or Mongoose + Kiora or 1cmc card + Kiora :) ...
You could also do a super turn 2 by sacking 2 lands for total 9 mana (4 for kora + 5 whatever).
Kiora goes well with pun fire package cuz u can untap Grove with the +1 ab.
Her -2 second ability allows you to search for creatures on turn 3 and cast them easily since they are all under 2 mana. Plus she feeds the graveyard for tarmo and moongose.
She also has good synergy with life from the loam if it end into the graveyard (to get sacked lands back or wastelands or whatever u eventually need if short on mana), and also with punishing fire since you can get them back with Grove.
Kiora is blue so it sticks with force of will (on turn 2 its good to counter something with daze FOW or spellsnare in case they counter your Kiora...it will be bad loosing a land with the orc that way)
However even without a turn2 orc+kiora the deck still goes for his way.
Orcs and other creatures are still good after turn 3 with jittes equipped on them.
I won't even consider her 8/8 ab since I don't think you will ever do it , but hey, if u need she also does that.
I understand the chance to have 2 lands and kiora and orc and a counterspell on turn 2 are very low but as i said you still have the whole delver core package to hit the opponent.
Just an idea, let me know if you like it:) and if we can adjust it or fix it to allow it to work somehow
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Orcish Lumberjack
4 Tarmogoyf
Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Fire / ice
4 Force of Will
1 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
2 Spell Pierce
Artifacts
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
Planeswalkers
4 Kiora, Master of the Depths
http://www.essentialmagic.com/Decks/View.asp?ID=1040395 if u want to deck analize it.
Last edited by guybrush3; 11-06-2015 at 04:25 PM. Reason: be different
Troll, surely?
Could be, but take it half serious for a moment so it can be debunked. No reason to treat the deck as religious:
Koira is mostly good for her -2; thus you want to maximize that.
Issue: Having 30 sorceries/instants in the deck means you have a reasonable chance to whiff on getting *any* cards. Half of the other time you'll be getting a land. Filtering to get lands is not quite where this decks wants to be doing
Solution:
If you want to run Kiora, she's probably best in Elves, where you're nigh guaranteed 1 hit, while having an OK chance of 2 hits; of which your 1 hit will almost assuredly be a creature. They can also cast her reliably T2 without CDA and can probably make use of her untap abilities to combo off:
H.Druid, Sentinel, Ranger, 1 regular land, 1 cradle, (Koira, GSZ or hoof in hand)
tap 3 and regular land, play kiora
Untaps Sentinel for free, Tap cradle for 3, untap druid and cradle with kiora, return the land with Ranger and untap him, tap the 3 elves for 3 more mana (floating 6), tap cradle for 3 more: GSZ for hoof. (Albeit, only attacking for 15.)
Either way; sacrificing your lands in RUG isn't what you want to be doing and ramping is even more backwards; because the deck is built to play 1 mana spells while keeping your opponent's mana messed up. It would honestly make more sense to run Rishadan Ports, ghost quarters, or similar, than Koiras.
Thank for the reply. You are actually right. I don't play rug so i'm not used to it. However i'm quite experienced with mtg decks and cards. What I wanted to do is fit kiora in a green red blue deck so i thought canadiam rug was the better option.
I would like to keep the counter block , the grove punishinf fire one and the x4 orc ... All the rest is under costruction. Maybe it should focus more on creatures since her -2 ability. A rug zoo with counters maybe? Is that possibile?Still figuring out how to build it. Sometimes i get fed up with classic legacy decks we played for ages . It's nice to create new decks.. Maybe this is the wrong thread ;)
Sorry
I think the Elves approach works because the -2 ability has utility and the +1 is essentially adding Dark Ritual to your deck, or multiple dark rituals if you have cradle (as the above example shows that Elves went from bottle-necked at 7 mana, to having 9 (after spending 4)
If you want her in a RUG deck, I'll point out that the initial difficulty is that you start with ~12 blue spells, 4 removal, and then probably 4-8 more spells. This is because Force, Brainstorm, and then just running enough blue. Then next bit is you want some reason for untapping creatures and lands to be very powerful, as well as the -2 to be reliable.
To make the untap powerful; it's probably because you're running a mana-dork (Hierarch? DRS?) or powerful utility lands (can't think of one that works here though) and the main issue is that with the exception of Elves or some such; 4 mana is already supposed to be your game-ending spell; 3 mana is often supposed to be your game ending spell; so 4 shouldn't be ramping into yet-another-huge-spell unless that's already your M.O. (Nic Fit, Elves)
Playing her in RUG just because of the Orcish Lumberjack means you probably want some kind of.. Sneak-Attack deck? But that begs the question why you'd want Kiora in a deck with Sneak Attack when you could just T2 Sneak attack, Lotus Petal, Worldspine Wurm, win.
The only synergy I see here is:
Tap land for mana (1)
Sac it to Lumberjack (4)
Tap another land for mana (5)
untap both and tap the land (6)
sac it to lumberjack (9)
And.. ok, 9 mana is pretty huge; but what do you want to do with it now that you've costed yourself 2 cards? Better be pretty game-ending to risk that; and uniquely game ending so there's a reason to do that instead of just win the game at 3-5 mana.
Aside from that; you could make your own version of Nic Fit without black, using Punishing Fire and Pyroclasm effects to kill your Explorer and feed your Lumberjack. Doing this in the right sequence could net you 8 mana T3 pretty reasonably with a good hand:
T1 Land, Explorer
T2 Land, Clasm, 2 Lands, Lumberjack
T3 Land (5) + Lumberjack-sac brings you to 8...Gaea's Revenge?
Has anyone tested x4 Sarkhan Unbroken in a less creature deck and more control shell , maybe with a some rampers ? Since he has the super ability to create 4 4 flying dragons?
RUG cascade maybe its a better solution for him since the mana curve deck?
Sounds pretty terrible.Has anyone tested x4 Sarkhan Unbroken in a less creature deck and more control shell , maybe with a some rampers ? Since he has the super ability to create 4 4 flying dragons?
RUG cascade maybe its a better solution for him since the mana curve deck?
You should maybe play RUG delver a bit instead of just throwing random cards out there dude.
Has anyone tested x4 Sarkhan Unbroken in a less creature deck and more control shell , maybe with a some rampers ? Since he has the super ability to create 4 4 flying dragons?
RUG cascade maybe its a better solution for him since the mana curve deck?
You know that Tarmogoyf is almost too expensive to cast for this deck?
So I know this is done to death on the source but I am only new to this deck. Not legacy or the source. I'm not gonna make changes to the deck because I know better. I am however building this deck in anticipation that I will be going to Columbus and Chiba next year and since I have hated and appreciated this deck for its existence, I have decided to embrace the dark side. I also feel this deck rewards absolute tight play which is something I find refreshing. I understand the deck is 54 and then 6 flex. At this moment in time, I am at 2 dismember, 2 pierce, 1 spell snare and 1 forked bolt. I think forked is dubiously underpowered but I understand the necessity.
As for the sb, I will try to piggy back off the louder voices in this thread. I like to share reports as often as possible and I hope we can improve the deck further.
In regards to the person wanting to jam pw, play the stock list and see where the deck works, finding first hand is the best learning method. I am also beyond surprised at the response to what I perceived as subtle madness. Good on you all.
I went to gp SeaTac and finished 8-5 drop.
Day 1
2 byes
R3 shardless 2/0
R4 Chalice Merfolk 1/2
R5 Elves 2/0
R6 Maverick 2/0
R7 mirror 1/2
R8 shardless 2/0
R9 miracles 2/1
Day 2
R1 demons run show and tell 2/0
R2 Jund 1/2 knocked out of contention for top 8
R3 Reanimator 0/2
R4 storm 1/2 out of contention for any prizes
Drop
I'll be posting a more detailed report later. I was going to at least make to 32 but oh well. In all honesty the matches that I did lose Merfolk, mirror, and Jund were all pretty much out of my hands. That aside I won a lot of bad and hard match ups.
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