With that eldrazi deck, playing elves, DT and maverick seems counter intuitive.Originally Posted by keys
I don't see Edrazi squeezing out any of these decks. Maybe elves... slightly? Maverick and D&T can hold their own.
(Jacob Ross here!) I originally had 4 pierce and 2 dismember as the flex spots, but I cut 2 of the pierces in favor of forked bolt to have a little better game against DnT in game one. Normally, I do have access to Rough/Tumble in the board, but gambled and played the PoP's instead for the Lands matchup.
My immediate plans will be to cut the PoP's from the board, and add a Winter Orb (seems decent against lands, and has shown promise against Miracles), change one of the Spell Pierces to a fluster storm, and add substitute the last spell pierce for a rough/tumble. I am also leaning towards cutting destructive revelry as it seemed somewhat unimpressive. This will likely be another rough/tumble, or some sort of "silver bullet" for storm-based combo decks. It may just end up being a spell pierce as that would be the most flexible option, but not as devastating as something like arcane lab, or the mana maze I played in my previous iterations of the deck.
Also, it's nice to know someone is listening to the podcast : )
I am confused here on the meta with delver decks and looking for some clarification.
Most people say that grixis and bug delver has pushed RUG out. Is this true? Is this an unfavorable time to be playing RUG delver?
Yes, mainly because DRS> Goose IMO
It is and it isn't. DRS is great but it can get shut down in a number of ways, and this isn't a deck that needs mana acceleration.
Having to fetch U Sea is also ugly. I think the number of recent RUG T8s shows the deck is still viable, and part of that is down to its resiliency.
I agree with this. I would also add that while you're looking at the tier system it is easy to forget that the first tier is as much a commentary on popularity as it is on power level. For example BUG just got pushed out of the first tier, and now the only Tier 1 Delver variant is Grixis. I believe Grixis was considered the least powerful Delver archetype after Dig Through Time was banned? I could be very wrong on that, but I think there's other factors at play that keep Grixis in the first tier over BUG and Canadian.
The point is, Canadian Threshold may not be trending, but that doesn't mean it's any less powerful. Even with Eldrazi's growing popularity in the format, Canadian Threshold top8ed the Legacy Classic at SCG Columbus this week.
Grixis Delver won that Legacy Classic, btw.
Eldrazi is actually trending down, fyi (if you track the numbers on TC decks for April)
People thought Grixis was the would be the weakest post ban, but it is clearly not the case.
I wasn't saying RUG isn't powerful, sure it is, but there are better choices. This is coming from somebody who's played all the delver archetypes (except the new Patriot Delver build with DRS that is being talked about).
Here's a few thing I've noticed with RUG (particularly vs Grixis):
- Gurmag Angler outclasses goyf, and comes down almost as fast. (in the matchup, goyf is usually a 4/5)
Gurmag can also sometimes shrink your Goyf
DRS Can keep your Goose small and block it favorably pre-threshold
DRS Can also sometimes shrink your goyf
DRS accellerates their gameplan
Young P goes wide, which is harder to deal with
Young P + Cabal is backbreaking in the tempo mirror
RUG IMO is probably still has the best matchup vs Miracles, purely because of goose. Again, I'm not saying RUG isn't powerful, I love the deck, it's a ton of fun to play, I just think there are better options currently. Which is what James was asking.
RUG is often about pulling ahead of your opponent and staying just ahead long enough to win the game. If you stumble, it's often hard to pull back ahead since we have no ways to generate card advantage like Grixis does with Young Pyromancer.
Grixis also attacks from multiple angles. If you're playing against Grixis and they have a DRS (inevitability), Gurmag Angler (bigger than Goyf) and a Young Pyromancer (goes wide) and you draw a Dismember, which one do you kill? I'm obviously oversimplifying the situation, but just trying to make a point.
Yep, all these points make sense.
Grixis/4c Delver has always been favored against RUG (pre-sideboard at least), but it isn't necessarily better against the rest of the field (Miracles being a notable match, as you mentioned). If you're concerned about the Delver mirror, there are plenty of ways to sideboard effectively for it.
You can even go all-in on threshold and play Tarfire in the flex slots, at which point Goyf outclasses Angler, and you have more instant speed removal for DRS on turn 1.
A great weapon against Grixis is ROUGH/TUMBLE. It just dismantle their creatures, but angler. Hold dismember for it and it's all good!
I think Grixis feels better against the rest of the field. With it's SB options, it can grind better against Midrange decks, and still be the aggro deck in control matchups.
Anyways, the argument is more or less that Grixis is likely better (the numbers show it) but RUG is still a powerful deck (which I agree with also).
Yeah, Rough/Tumble is great
Hey guys, I’ve been enjoying winter orb as a sideboard card a lot recently. One of my friends jokingly suggested I should mainboard it. So I decided fuck it, why not? I played it at a weekly event last night. Here is the list I ran:
54 Standard RUG Cards
4 Spell Pierce
1 Forked Bolt
1 Winter Orb
Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Rough // Tumble
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Submerge
1 Dismember
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 PRice of Progress
Round 1: Grixis Delver
G1: I lose the die roll. He leads volcanic into delver and I follow up with the same thing. His fails to flip and I flip a brainstorm. He plays 2 Deathrites which I kill I run out a goose a few turns later while holding up spell pierce. I have a turn where I’m holding 2 ponders and a spell pierce. I opt to hold the pierce up and he casts an angler. I get a ⅘ goyf out and draw into winter orb. The thought occurs to me to try and find a counterspell for my own winter orb to make my goyf bigger than angler, but I don’t find one in time. Well, that’s what I get for main-decking winter orb I guess...
Sideboarding: -2 FoW -1 pierce -1 winter orb + Dismember + 2 rough // tumble + 1 Pyroblast
G2: I lead T1 goose into t2 2 Delvers which taps me out so I can’t hold up stifle, he bolts one eot, fetches an underground sea and plays and angler. I’m worried this will be a repeat of last game. I swing with delver putting him to 13 he plays 2 of his own delvers next turn and swings with angler putting me to 14, I swing again with delver and goose putting him to 7, then. He swings with 2 delvers putting me to 8 and holds angler back to block one of my geese so that he’ll be at one after I swing. I brainstorm into a bolt and he doesn’t have countermagic.
Sideboarding: -2 Pierce + 2 force
G3: I’m on the play and keep Fetch, waste, stifle, spell pierce, delver, FoW, Ponder. I lead the fetch and pass. He leads U-sea>ponder which I spell pierce, he dazes the pierce. I draw another delver and cast Ponder since I assume he will replay the U-sea. I’m trying to find a second land and don’t see one so I shuffle and draw Stifle. He replays the U-sea and casts deathrite, which I force pitching a delver. I wasteland him. He plays a fetchland which I stifle. I hold trop untapped for one more turn since I have 1 more stifle left, he passes without playing a land. I run delver out and the game ends pretty quickly from there.
Record: 1-0 (2-1)
Round 2: Death & Taxes
G1: I’m ashamed to say I lost this game because I really shouldn’t have. I lead delver, He mulls to 5 and leads port into aether vial which I daze. He plays another aether vial turn 2 off a second port. I waste one of his ports and swing several times. He plays stoneforge and fetches Jitte, I fail to realize this means he already has a batterskull in hand and I play greedy with my stifles. I play out a winter orb to make it more difficult for him to play on the lands he has., I’m sitting on 3 spell pierces in hand now. I get him to 1 and he gets a batterskull out, lays down thalia, taps one of my lands, and plows my delver while I can’t cast spell pierce, and wins from there. Had I been much less of an idiot I would have held a stifle for the living weapon trigger. Lesson learned.
Sideboarding: -2 force, -2 pierce, -2 daze, - winter orb, + 2 rough // Tumble, + sulfur elemental, + dismember, + ancient grudge, + destructive revelry + 1 Sulfuric Vortex
Game 2: I play turn 1 goose, turn 2 goyf, he slams rest in peace and it’s pretty much over from there. I don’t find delver or destructive revelry until I’m already dead on board.
Record: 1-1 (2-3)
Round 3: 4 color loam
I was sure this guy was on 12-post because he played it for like 5 years. I hadn’t seen him in a while though. I probably should Have realized he was on loam when he played badlands into Mox Diamond discarding grove of the burnwillows, but it took him playing out dark confidant for me to realize that he probably wasn’t running emrakul in his deck. Nevertheless he was low on lands and while he decayed my delver and goyf, an early mongoose gets him down to 4. I have 2 trops and a volcanic out. He plays a wasteland and casts liliana with 2 mana up (presumably playing around spell pierce) i'm holding daze and stifle. I let liliana resolve, stifle the -2 and daze my stifle (paying for it) to pick up my volcanic so I can hold it away from his volcanic until I draw a red spell. I end up getting a bolt off the top for the win.
G2: -4 daze -2 force -1 forked bolt + 2 submerge + 2 surgical +2 price of progress + 1 dismember
I play t1 delver, daze his confidant (not sure why he kept this in, seems kinda bad), t2 goose. Delver flips and swings twice before getting decayed. I get him down to 7 with goose and cast price of progress for exactsies.
Record: 2-1 (5-3)
Round 4: He wants to draw and go play standard with one of his friends. I agree as 1) I need to go home as well, 2) he was on maverick and I don't like my chances.
Overall none of the matchups where Orb is supposed to shine, except perhaps loam although I basically just got lucky both games and didn't draw it. That was a good thing though since I got to experience exactly why it's not a mainboard card. Both games I drew winter orb were games where I absolutely didn't want it, and I got punished hard for using it in one of them. If I wanted to take that kind of risk I'd be playing a different deck. I think it will stay in the sideboard for now.
Newbie lesson learned :)
I should also add that I got extremely punished for playing that winter orb. It fucked me WAY more than it hurt him.
Still love it in the side though, where I can avoid having it against decks like that.
In a meta with many Grixis Delver and Team America, there's no sense to play Winter Orb maindeck.
Draw it in the first 7 cards is egual to mulligan.
Imho Winter Orb is a great card for sideboard, if we found the slot for add her.
The 15 Canadian side cards are too few many times!
I've been play testing this deck a lot lately (mainly because people kept saying how "dead" it is). One Tarfire in the main and one in the SB has been amazing. And I feel very confident in the grixis matchup.
I've been playing it in the side for a while. I'm pretty much using Jacob Ross's list ( http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/358005#online) with a few small changes. The card has been amazing against shardless, miracles, and lands/loam. I think it basically fills the same role as Sylvan library.In a meta with many Grixis Delver and Team America, there's no sense to play Winter Orb maindeck.
Draw it in the first 7 cards is egual to mulligan.
Imho Winter Orb is a great card for sideboard, if we found the slot for add her.
The 15 Canadian side cards are too few many times!
Winter Orb is interesting, although I can only think of a couple of match-ups where it might be useful. It's pretty good against Miracles, because it squeezes the mana they have to spin the Tops with. I plan to try bringing Winter Orb in against Cloudpost, next time I see that.
I'm also going to try Tarfire in the main, I kind-of like the idea of giving Tarmogoyf that boost.
I've tried winter orb before and it's ok but not great. The problem with it in the match ups you want (miracles shardless) is that you need a threat for it to be effective. This sounds basic tempo strategy but is slightly less obvious when looking at orb.
The majority of the time you land it will be the turn after you play your threat which is the best window. Now if miracles can swords/terminus it and dodge your daze/Pierce then you're way behind. Shardless can also just decay your threat which is a bit better for us since is 2cmc and we would have the orb out. Here's the problem though if you don't follow up your first threat with another or have another land it's like painting yourself into a corner. Goyfs we draw seem like they're 3 mana between untapping after a bolt/pierce/snare. Cantripping becomes harder to sequence into threats.
This is all just conjecture from my own experience, but overall it seems too high variance. The one match up it's great in is show and tell. They're constantly tapping out to cantrip and makes their combo turn a one shot chance.
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