[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

[Jonathan Alexander]

Winter Orb is ridiculous against Miracles period. You don't even need threats, you have Winter Orb and you're suddenly the better control deck.

[eldub]

Anyone notice the latest 5-0 on MTGO was playing a pair of Disrupt? Kinda cute.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/410252#paper

[Deadeye_Mongoose]

Anyone notice the latest 5-0 on MTGO was playing a pair of Disrupt? Kinda cute.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/410252#paper

That's pretty spicy. I'd just be worried about running something in that slot that can't counter CB, RiP, or Chalice.

[eldub]

I still prefer Gitaxian Probe in the spot for a number of reasons, I just thought it was worth mentioning as an option for those looking for more interaction or cantrips.

[MTB]

Disrupt has nothing in common with probe. Probe just cycles while Disrupt can give cardadvantage O.o but sadly its most likely too weak as we already play daze which can be dead fast.

[NARO]

I 3-0d the two last weekly leagues with this deck. It's incredible how this deck performs when you figure out what you have to do, and I still consider myself a noob with the deck. I play the usual 54, 3 pierce, 2 forked, 1 dismember. My matchups were 2-0 miracles, 2-1 affinity, 2-0 dragon stompy, 2-1 team amerca, 2-1 UR delver, 2-1 pox.

One thing that I still have doubts it's when my hand has only 1 fetch land but green and red spells. I usually fetch green if i'm the beatdown or vs combo decks and red if i'm the control deck. But when I don't know what my opponent plays I don't know what to do most of the times. When I have ponder/brainstorm it's easier since you will probably find another fetch, but when you don't seems hard. Can someone shed some light?

Greets

[keys]

I 3-0d the two last weekly leagues with this deck. It's incredible how this deck performs when you figure out what you have to do, and I still consider myself a noob with the deck. I play the usual 54, 3 pierce, 2 forked, 1 dismember. My matchups were 2-0 miracles, 2-1 affinity, 2-0 dragon stompy, 2-1 team amerca, 2-1 UR delver, 2-1 pox.

One thing that I still have doubts it's when my hand has only 1 fetch land but green and red spells. I usually fetch green if i'm the beatdown or vs combo decks and red if i'm the control deck. But when I don't know what my opponent plays I don't know what to do most of the times. When I have ponder/brainstorm it's easier since you will probably find another fetch, but when you don't seems hard. Can someone shed some light?

Greets

You don't usually need to fetch red first unless you need to bolt something right away like a DRS or Mom. But it's important to not make yourself vulnerable to Wasteland, so you might not even want to break your fetch right away if you suspect that. It also really depends what your first turn play is.

[Contract Killer]

I 3-0d the two last weekly leagues with this deck. It's incredible how this deck performs when you figure out what you have to do, and I still consider myself a noob with the deck. I play the usual 54, 3 pierce, 2 forked, 1 dismember. My matchups were 2-0 miracles, 2-1 affinity, 2-0 dragon stompy, 2-1 team amerca, 2-1 UR delver, 2-1 pox.

One thing that I still have doubts it's when my hand has only 1 fetch land but green and red spells. I usually fetch green if i'm the beatdown or vs combo decks and red if i'm the control deck. But when I don't know what my opponent plays I don't know what to do most of the times. When I have ponder/brainstorm it's easier since you will probably find another fetch, but when you don't seems hard. Can someone shed some light?

Greets

If you don't have goose then fetch red first. This is partially match up dependent but the basis of it is as follows. Delver you can play off volcanic. Goyfs you will need a second land to play anyways. This also means that if you fetch volcanic there's another tropical in the deck to find with your cantrip. This also allows you access to your removal early vs deathrite and other delvers.

The match up dependent part is pretty much as you described. Against combo prioritize green mana so that you can land your threats early and fast. This is also probably one of the few times where playing goyfs off of tropical and waste is reasonable.

Another thing to take into consideration when playing ponder is should I crack my fetch. Personally I think that if the plan is to ponder into threat and play it that turn then fetching into ponder is right. This way you can get a threat out of the top 3 and another good card then shuffle away the worst. The deck has a lot of conditional cards so I've found that the line ponder - > fetch -> threat can lead to some awkward top decks. I would also play ponder like this if I'm holding reaction (stifle, snare, pierce, bolt etc) then planning to play the threat next turn.

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[MTB]

Most of the time you want to fetch green first. If you fetch green first you can ponder or brainstorm into 2. land for bolt. Compared to a volcanic as first land you can ponder or brainstorm into a goose. Beeing able to cast removal spells is much more useful because you dont need to deploy the goos as fast as you have to bolt a Mom, shamane or whatever.
So summened up its like this:

Open with trop -> Ponder/Brainstorm -> fetch Volcanic -> Castable: Lightning Bolt, fokred Bolt

Open with volc-> Ponder/Brainstorm -> fetch Tropical-> Castable: Mungoose

So the only possibility that the leading with a volc seems better is:
1. Bolt is useless (no need to Bolt something he might drop in his turn asap)
2. You have pressure the opponent VERY fast so you need every single damage
3. Opponent doesnt play Daze



Regarding Ponder:

Cracking a fetch before pondering is wrong. The probability that you find a thread AND a useful card is much lower than finding a threat and shit. So if you did fetch before you have to decide if you want: a.) draw the thread but also 2 shit cards or b.) shuffle and not getting the threat.
Summed up
1.) Threat, shit, shit - better to crack fetch after Ponder
2.) Threat, good, shit - better to crack fetch after Ponder (could depend if you have a second shuffle effect)
3.) Threat, good, good - only possibility that its right to fetch first

So the chances that cracking first is good seem very very small.

[LewisCBR]

Most of the time you want to fetch green first. If you fetch green first you can ponder or brainstorm into 2. land for bolt. Compared to a volcanic as first land you can ponder or brainstorm into a goose. Beeing able to cast removal spells is much more useful because you dont need to deploy the goos as fast as you have to bolt a Mom, shamane or whatever.
So summened up its like this:

Open with trop -> Ponder/Brainstorm -> fetch Volcanic -> Castable: Lightning Bolt, fokred Bolt

Open with volc-> Ponder/Brainstorm -> fetch Tropical-> Castable: Mungoose

So the only possibility that the leading with a volc seems better is:
1. Bolt is useless (no need to Bolt something he might drop in his turn asap)
2. You have pressure the opponent VERY fast so you need every single damage
3. Opponent doesnt play Daze



Regarding Ponder:

Cracking a fetch before pondering is wrong. The probability that you find a thread AND a useful card is much lower than finding a threat and shit. So if you did fetch before you have to decide if you want: a.) draw the thread but also 2 shit cards or b.) shuffle and not getting the threat.
Summed up
1.) Threat, shit, shit - better to crack fetch after Ponder
2.) Threat, good, shit - better to crack fetch after Ponder (could depend if you have a second shuffle effect)
3.) Threat, good, good - only possibility that its right to fetch first

So the chances that cracking first is good seem very very small.

This is excellent rule of thumb advice. I've had a few instances where i didnt crack a fetch before Ponder, saw 3 great cards, and regretting the choice, but i agree that IN GENERAL it is correct to not crack that fetch. Gotta play the odds.

Opposite color fetching, is sort of a term with this deck. Its risky, but if you have a hand with Bolts, one fetch land, and a Ponder, it might be correct to get the Trop, so you can Ponder into another fetch, to ultimately get that Volc and have Bolt mana up. When it works out, it is beautiful.

[NARO]

Hey, yesterday in my local weekly legacy I went 1-2, sadly since im not the leader of the league anymore ;(. My losses were against grixis delver and affinity, both 1-2. My win was against goblins 2-0.

The first game against grixis I was on the play and I beat him handily after crushing his manabase. The second one he lands a delver T1, I have no bolt and when I have something it's too late and the angler has arrived. Third game is where I punted since my hand was 1 fetch, 2 forked, 2 bolt, brainstorm, daze, stifle. I keep and fetch a volcanic beore his turn so he cant fetch in response to my fetch. He wastelands my volcanic, I dunno why but had a lapsus, forget I had the stifle and let it resolve. I didn't drew more lands so he beat me.

I sideboarded like this:
On the draw: +2 rough, +1 needle, +1 flusterstorm, -3 dazes, -1 pierce
On the play: +3 dazes, -3 fows

Match 2, on the play aswell against my friend with affinity. Game 1 He only has 2 mana before I destroy one of his lands, his board is not good enough and 2 gooses and a delver get the job done quickly. He showed me he had 2 master of etherium that he coundn't cast. Game 2 and 3 were a blowout, fucking welding jar tho.

Sb:
+1 krosan, +1 ancient grudge, +1 pithing needle, +2 REB(I know he plays pierces post side, and against master of etherium which I know he plays 3)
-4 stifles, -1 daze

Against affinity I don't really know what to take out. The stifles seems better on paper than what it is. The only trigger that's worth stifling is the modular from ravager.

Match 3 against goblins, on the play. In the first game he has 3 wastelands but I keep drawing lands, he doesn't have vial or lackey so he get's stuck with a large curve hand I can replenish and win with a goose. The second game he keep a one-lander with lackey. I kill the lackey and he can't do shit.

Sb:
+2 rough/tumble, +1 ancient grudge
-3 dazes

What do you think of my sideboard choices? My SB looked like this:

2 Rough
2 Submerge
2 REB
1 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sylvan Library
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Sulfur Elemental

Sunday I will go to another tournament, I expect it will be 5 swiss rounds + top8. Since my local meta has less blue than the average legacy meta, I'm going to reduce the number of REBs to 1, and number of submerges to 1 aswell. I'm going to replace krosan grip with trygon predator for this torunament, to see how it fares. And add winter orb and probably grafdigger's cage.

Cheers

[LewisCBR]

Pretty big brainfart in your match 1 game 3, haha, but it sounds like you would have Brain-locked yourself in that game anyways if you didnt draw a land, but at least you would have had some burn to keep him in check for a while.

This deck can almost always have a response to everything. Even if i think i know my hand, i quickly look at it after every spell/action just to make sure. No one ever plays Squelch/Stifle like abilities in Modern, so if you arent used to it, sometimes that stuff can slip by until you get more reps under your belt!

I think i like shaving a couple Forces against Grixis Delver, even on the draw. I feel like your board needs a way to kill Goyfs and Anglers, i usually bring in a REB, Roughs, Fluster, and Dismembers. What is the Pithing Needle for that you brought in... DRS?

[LewisCBR]

I heard that a comic shop near me does a Legacy FNM on the second Friday of every month, so I decided to go check it out! Only 6 people showed up, lol, but I was told it was an off night and usually there are a dozen or more. The Colorado Legacy scene is pretty weak, i brought this 75: http://deck.tk/9ytJ9qkw

I slotted in a Zuran Orb in lieu of Flusterstom, in the sideboard, because it always seems like paper meta's have a few Burn players, but I really wasnt sure what decks to expect at this shop. It felt weird not having additional counter magic in the side. I've been on a Tarmogoyf grow plan lately, for my flex spots, and really like it to get Goyfs bigger than some of the Eldrazi, assuming that deck might be popular. I hardly ever get a sweet 2-for-1 with Forked Bolt, i've found, so i figure i might as well jam a Tarfire and Seal of Fire to make big Goyfs. I also really like Probe in this deck for timings on threat deployment, another Sorcery for Goyf, deciding what spells to counter, and Stifles.

Round 1 vs UR Delver
I lost the die roll, but kept a good 7 against an unknown opponent. He turn 1 Pondered off a Volcanic and I turn 1 Probed. Seeing only a Tarn as his other land, I kept up Stifle, as opposed to playing a Ponder, and got him good on his turn 2 when he cracked to try and play a Stormchaser Mage. I played Goyf on my turn 2 and rumbled from there. Game 2, he Probed me and saw another Stifle, but for some reason he didnt crack a turn 2 Arid Mesa while I was tapped out from playing a Delver. After that, I kept Stifle up all game while he was stuck on one land and the one un-cracked Mesa, he killed my Delver, but Goose and a Goyf got there pretty easily afterwards. Win 2-0, 1-0.

Round 2 vs Esper Stoneblade
I won the roll, kept 7, and played a turn 1 Goose because I had free counterspell backup, in case he had a great turn 1. He just Pondered and passed, though, and from there I was under control with multiple Stifles ready and Wastelands. I took a gamble and Spell Pierced a key Brainstorm which really screwed him over, too. Typical RUG land denial won the game pretty easily. In Game 2, I got a huge Goyf off countering a Baleful Strix and again Stifled like him crazy. He was able to land a Stoneforge Mystic, but never got to do anything with the Jitte he tutored up. This was a clinic on how to run tempo. There was one turn where i had a few lands out, Brainstormed into good stuff and a Fetch, played/cracked the fetch, Pondered into a Stifle, which got me Threshold, attacked with Goyf and Goose, and passed with Stifle up on his freshly drawn Fetchland. He was visibly frustrated, but complimented the deck afterwards. Get Stifled. Win 2-0, 2-0.

Round 3 vs Burn
I lost the roll and he started out with a turn 1 Goblin Guide. Gross, since I didnt have any burn in hand to deal with it. I Pondered into a Goyf, left a land on top, and passed. He hit me again with Guide on turn 2, Lava Spiked me, but then missed a land drop. I'm not sure if that is a good thing, really, since it meant he has gas in hand. I played my Goyf as a 2/3 and passed. Here was an interesting interaction, on his turn 3. He played a Scalding Tarn and attempted to Chain Lightning my Goyf. I decided to Daze it, so my Goyf would be a 3/4 and survive, even if he paid for it. Instead, he decided to not pay for it and attacked with his Guide, which I blocked and killed. Second Main, he Chain Lightninged the Goyf again, this time killing it, but I think that was a pretty profitable trade for me! I took zero damage, wasted his entire turn, and got 3 cards for my 2. Sign me up for that any day of the week. He should have just paid for Daze and I would have blocked the Guide anyways. After all that, I starting dropping Gooses and countering more spells. There was another good turn where I Stifled the suspense trigger on his Rift Bolt, which would have killed me since I was at 3. On my final lethal swing he tried to Price of Progress me in response to my attack, which would have killed me, as I was still at 3 with a Volc, Trop, and Wateland out, but I Wastelanded my own Trop to survive and kill him, pretty sweet. Game 2 wasnt as exciting. He turn 1 suspended a Rift Bolt, and I played a Delver. Delver died and then he missed a land drop and Lava Spiked me. I Pondered and played another Delver, which he again killed on his turn with a Bolt. Offering up these Delvers were saving me a ton of life and I eventually landed a Goyf, countered an Eidolon, and Goyf got huge, rumbling to victory pretty easily. Win 2-0, 3-0.

Pretty awesome night to not drop a game. The deck was running hot and I got 5 packs of Shadows for my $5 investment, haha. I didnt draw Seal of Fire all night, but Tarfire did a little work at some point during one of these matches, I remember. I dont think I would change much for the next paper tournament, but maybe add Flusterstorm back in and take out Submerge, I really dont think its a great meta for that card right now, especially considering the decks I saw last night. The Burn match-up has actually been very good to me every time i've seen it, so maybe I dont need Zuran Orb, afterall.

Man, i bombed out of GP Albuquerque, but since then I crushed a Legacy side event at the GP, won SCG Modern States, and went unblemished in this FNM as my last three 'real' tournaments. Really happy with my Magic playing lately.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Just lost in top eight of the Legacy Challenge:

1 Winter Orb

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Ponder

//Sideboard:
1 Winter Orb
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
2 Submerge
2 Painful Truths
2 Rough // Tumble

2-1 Shardless
2-0 Jeskai Blade
2-0 Miracles
2-1 Sneak & Show
2-0 Esper Blade

1-2 Midrange Team America with Hymns, Dazes, True-Names & Mox Diamonds, apparently without Delvers.

[LewisCBR]

Nice run, man. I'm floored by the only 10 creatures and a U-Sea that only seems good at making Dismember hurt less and Painful Truths.

Did this plan work out like you hoped? Winter Orb win a lot of Miracle matches? Or, did you happen to draw around the changes and just get people the traditional way?

[Jonathan Alexander]

Painful Truths wins the Shardless matchup. I came to the conclusion that their cards were bad, only they had too many of them. I jokingly suggested Painful Truths, Kai started testing it, I tried it out and I have so far lost one out of 10ish games I cast Truths in (to not finding a green source in the top half of my deck).
Winter Orb is good against literally every deck that's not Delver, although I sometimes board them out against Abrupt Decays as well.

This was not the first tournament I played the deck in, I also made top eight in a local MKM Series Trial (and won another the week before, but without black, with Library and another Pierce over Truths). I don't think there are any changes I would make at this point.

[cheerios]

@Jona

What's your opinion on replacing the 2 Goyfs in your list with 2 TNNs?

Cheers

[eldub]

LewisCBR, congratulations on your recent success.

You and I share much of the same thoughts on making 'goyf the best he can be in the current Eldrazi-meta. I have found that Seal of Fire not flipping Delver was too big of a drawback and I have gone to simply playing 2 Tarfire instead.

[Deadeye_Mongoose]

I also made top eight in a local MKM Series Trial

What were your matchups there?

Also, what do you think of the delver mirror with this list?

[Jonathan Alexander]

@Jona

What's your opinion on replacing the 2 Goyfs in your list with 2 TNNs?

Cheers

I have two True-Names in the sideboard. I like being able to switch it up, but I usually prefer Goyf.

What were your matchups there?

Also, what do you think of the delver mirror with this list?

From memory, in the two trials I played, I faced Miracles four times, Goblins twice, Painter, Shardless, Storm, RedAnimator and 4C once each. I might be mixing things up here and forgetting something. My losses in the trials were to Goblins and Miracles once each.

Delver mirror depends on what you're facing. Canadian mirror has to be slightly worse with the Sea, Team America is better thanks to more Dismember, 4C & Grixis about the same as regular Canadian.


Interesting to note is probably that I have never lost two postboard games in a match since I started playing the deck again last month. There are some other interesting things going on that I'm planning on compiling at some point as well.