I'm going to try the nemesis in the board. In what matchups do you bring them in? Miracles seems obvious, but apart of that?Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander
I'm actually not bringing them in against Miracles. I board them against Vial decks and decks like Aggro Loam mostly. Sometimes swap them for Goyfs game three against Shardless, depending on how many sweepers they have shown me game two. Not sure yet if I want them against Team America, but I think I do.
I don't like bringing them in when they can easily get countered, i.e. when my opponent has Daze and/or Pyroblast. I like them a lot in matchups that play on the board.
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I've run into this situation a couple times that I am trying out the 2 Tarfire now, too. I definitely want 6 ways to kill DRS in the main, finding the combination i like between Seal, Tar, Forked Bolt, and Dismember has been interesting. I've yet to regret trying anything over Forked Bolt. Sorc in the graveyard is covered by Probe and the 2 for 1's are so extremely rare. Tarfire being an instant has been so relevant.
I really like the 6 flex spots to be 2 Probe, 2 counterspells of somekind, and 2 direct damage/DRS kill spells. However, i'm closely following the crazy stuff Jonathan Alexander is jamming, taking this deck in a new direction seems exciting. Def been playing more Winter Orb lately and yeah, its been great vs anything not Delver.
The problem is the cards which are relevant to kill DRS are just totally dead vs a lot of other decks (Eldrazi, Miracles, to name a few). I do really like the grow-a-goyf plan, since it makes him bigger vs Angler too which has been a problem at time. Dismember sounds good in theory but in practice never works out for me, thats just my personal experience though. With seal + tarfire you can get a 6/7 Goyf! crazy! I've tried running probe, but its only really relevant if you open with it. If you don't, I always end up drawing it wishing it was gas.
My configuration has pretty staunchly been 2 snare, 2 pierce, and then I can never quite settle on the last 2.
Tarfire is an instant and very frequently goes to the face, closing out games, i wouldnt call that dead, per se, especially since in one of the examples you use (Eldrazi) it hits Mimic and Reshaper, too.
My current flex are 2 Probe, 2 Tarfire, & 2 Spell Pierce.
Just went X-0 tonight at my local Legacy FNM. Beat some matchups that normally you'd expect to be auto-losses (beat TWO D&T decks, also beat a UWr Miracles deck).
Thank you for sharing the list. Awesome tech, everything ran smoothly, A+ will play again.
I've been unhappy with Grixis Delver lately and think that this particular variant of RUG might end up being the deck I decide to run for the Grand Prix.
Obviously you need to get a little lucky with your counterspells and timing of removal, but overall there's not really a single thing I would change in this list right now and it played out perfectly.
Sadly I did not actually resolve a single Painful Truths tonight, but I have the suspicion that it probably is better than alternative modes of Card Advantage. I guess you could play Predict and/or Sylvan Library, maybe Night's Whisper if you want a less powerful but much easier-to-cast version of PT.
Predict might actually not be an awful choice, given that a pre-flipped Delver can provide you the requisite information, and obviously so do Ponder/Bstorm. Being an Instant instead of a Sorcery and only costing 2-mana are also tremendously useful. Of course, you also don't have to run an Underground Sea, and won't lose access to Green mana as easily (2 Wastelands DO sometimes happen). And while Predict 'only' draws you 2 cards, sometimes getting rid of a chafe/situationally-useless card from the top is practically as good as drawing 3. You ALSO get the occasional chance to blow out someone using Sensei's Divining Top or Enlightened Tutor. Predict being Blue could be a liability against decks running Pyroblast, but then again it can be pitched to Force of Will.
All I know is that there was a list I played several years ago that ran a main deck Sylvan Library AND 1 or 2 copies of Predict, and it was pretty frick'in sweet and I got first place in a 50~ man tournament. So anyways, Predict probably warrants some testing.
Additional commentary and thoughts on the Painful Truths/RUG 2.0 situation:
So I really do like the innovation presented in the original list. Main-deck Winter Orb is such an obvious and powerful thing that synergizes with the rest of the mana-denial strategy and helps keep cards like Daze and Spell Pierce live for so much longer. It has made beating midrange decks like Jund, Lands, Miracles etc. so much more feasible. It makes SDT into a much much worse card. Having a second copy in the SB helps you see it in the matches where it matters, and only 1 copy in the MD makes it less problematic in the matches where you'd side it out. You either never draw it or hopefully can just chuck it back with a brainstorm.
I also like dropping Tarmogoyfs #3-4 for more permission. We simply don't need to resolve that many threats to win, and RUG Delver plays differently from other tempo strategies in that it's more about riding a single threat to victory. Against combo, it's much less likely that you'll get stuck with a bunch of threats/removal and not enough control in game 1. And yet if we *do* want more threats in a particular matchup, the 2 TNN help out a ton by basically being an unblockable Mongoose that doesn't get ruined by GY hate. It also helps out in matchups where you need to have a really solid wall/blocker while your Delvers fly in overhead (e.g. Eldrazi, D&T, etc.). While tapping out generally sucks, usually TNN is going to be doing solid work in the matchups he's brought in for.
Spell Snare is great right now, and Dismember is a necessary evil at the moment to deal with things like TKSeer and GAngler while also being a turn 1 answer to DRS. Being castable from any land is situationally very good as well, similarly so is getting through a chalice set to 1 (sometimes you just need to kill that one last blocker your Eldrazi opponent has for your Goyf to get through for the win). The single Counterspell is a nice surprise for players who are playing around Daze and/or Spell Pierce.
Most of the sideboard choices are obvious, but I do now want to touch again on Painful Truths and the question of Card Advtange.
Look, I get it, drawing 3 cards is pretty great and one of the best ways to keep up with grindy matches like Shardless BUG. But there is a real cost to running an Underground Sea in the 3rd Tropical Island slot, especially when it seems like RUG has existing alternatives for card advantage.
I already discussed Predict and Sylvan Library, but there's also:
-Snapcaster Mage: increases your threat density; relevant in many matchups by doubling your removal/permission/card filter at instant speed; is always a 2/1 beater despite grave hate eliminating the main advantage of running him; is Blue.
-Jace, Vryn's Prodigy: only costs 2 mana; delayed payoff that isn't guaranteed but can be theoretically activated multiple times; is Blue.
-Jace, the Mind Sculptor: 4 mana is doable against a deck like Miracles that doesn't threaten your mana base (Blood Moon and Back to Basics aside); is a late-game bomb that pretty much just wins the game if he goes unanswered for a couple turns; is Blue. That all said, 4-mana *is* a world of difference from 3-mana.
-Garruk Relentless/Wildspeaker, Arlinn Kord, Chandra Pyromaster, Xenagos the Reveler: all of these similarly provide long term advantage in various ways. They are not Blue and thus dodge Pyroblast. At 4 mana they also dodge Abrupt Decay. But again, 4 mana *is* a world of difference from 3 mana.
-Huntmaster of the Fells: kind of like a pseudo-planeswalker in that he provides advantage over multiple turns. But I don't really see him as being a serious suggestion for this deck.
-Jace Beleren: can give us a minimum 3 cards over multiple turns instead of all at once (though this also increases the likelihood that we won't see all 3); is Blue. He was obviously much better back in the old-Legend rule days where he could function as a Vindicate for opposing Jace TMS.
-Dack Fayden: provides card filter which isn't quite the same as card advantage (but essentially can be if you're dumping situationally-useless stuff like extra lands or whatever); his -2 ability can be relevant in some cases; his ultimate isn't entirely impossible to pull off; is Blue.
-Sulfuric Vortex: casting Shock every turn until your opponent is dead is kind of like having card advantage -- 3 activations = 2 Lightning Bolts, etc. It's also really good against certain other decks that involve life-gain -- RUG is very good at dealing exactly 20 damage, but beyond that it gets difficult so a card like Batterskull, Jitte, or especially Zuran Orb can be problematic for our strategy. RUG is generally really good at racing so rarely would the symmetrical portion of the card be a problem. It also provides a method of winning against traditionally "impossible" and difficult matches (e.g. Lands, Stax, Miracles, etc.). The argument here is that cards in hand don't matter as much as a relevant permanent would be. While it DOES get hit by Abrupt Decay, it's not a creature and thus is basically immune to conventional removal spells. Think of it sort of like a miniature True-Name Nemesis that happens to have haste --- a great finisher against decks that have boatloads of removal.
-Life from the Loam: beyond just providing the option of Wastelanding your opponent out of the game and protecting yourself from that dilemma as well, it also "draws" 3 cards from your graveyard (albeit lands). Combined with brainstorm though, and it's practically as good as drawing a bunch.
-I'm sure there's other legitimate cards related to Card Advantage (virtual or literal) that I missed and didn't include. Please add them so we can get a comprehensive list.
Anyways... Just all things to consider. I haven't made any definitive decisions, and I really just need to cast a few more PT to get an idea of the card first. But I have a feeling that there *are* going to be some games that get lost because your single Blue source was a Sea instead of a Volcanic or Tropical Island.
There's also the consideration that we just drop the 2 slots devoted towards Card Advantage altogether for alternative selections. More removal, more permission, more threats, graveyard hate (especially Grafdigger's Cage and/or Surgical Extraction), and other various answers to strategies are all worth considering. Pithing Needle is frequently useful and versatile, as is Engineered Explosives. I also liked seeing lists that innovated by including stuff like Eidolon of the Great Revel or Price of Progress (yeah, these effects are symmetrical, but they tend to hurt our opponents WAYYY more). Izzet Staticaster and/or Sulfur Elemental certainly aren't bad considerations in the current metagame.
edit: grammar, punctuation, typos.
Last edited by wcm8; 05-28-2016 at 06:14 PM.
Okay, this is very tricky to answer. I want to address everything seperately, but your post is too long to quote outright. Let's hope this will come out readable.
Predict was the first cardadvantage spell I ever though of putting into Canadian, way back in early 2012. I ended up testing Library first and Library was so good that I never felt the need to try Predict. I'm afraid it's not reliable enough though. It's probably even worse than Izzet Charm. I might get around to testing Predict at some point anyway though.
Night's Whisper I just don't see. I never have issues getting to five mana (because that's what you really need for Truths) in my long games against Miracles. Short games almost never happen, and if they do, it's because you Delver them.
I'm definitely very cautious with blue cards against red decks. Otherwise, I'd probably just run Jace, which is by far the best draw spell.
The Sea has only been an issue twice so far. In one game against Shardless, I drew the top half of my deck without ever seeing a green source (which was only possible thanks to Painful Truths in the first place).
The other game 2 Trop was an issue was against Maverick earlier today. Took three Wastelands to get rid of my Trops and that game was very close.
Outside of these two games, I have obviously won my fair share of games thanks to Painful Truths. I have also won a few games thanks to less life loss from Dismember. Especially in drawn out Delver mirrors, 2 life can make a world of difference.
However, I might try out 3 Orb 1 Library 0 Truths at some point. I just always want to draw Orb against Miracles.
Snapcaster Mage I never liked. It suffers the Shardless Syndrome: Sure, it's card advantage, but the extra card you get is barely a card. We replaced Library with Snapcaster back when everybody started playing Abrupt Decay after RTR came out, and I was very unhappy with the change. Also, Pyroblast.
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. Yeah no.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor. I wish. Would always play in every Deathrite Delver deck, but not with Stifle.
Other CMC 4 Planeswalkers: CMC 4. They're also all much worse than Jace, although it's notable that Garruk Relentless no longer dies to Decay, which I guess is cool. I liked Garruk in burg.
(Skipping some stuff.)
Sulfuric Vortex deals with all the same problems Winter Orb does while not being a one card combo. Equipment is also not problematic anymore with 2 Grudge.
Loam I actually tried again recently (I try it every time I come back to Delver, to always find out the same thing). I don't like it. Loam is only reasonable if you have two Wastelands, the extra lands don't really do anything. I thought I wanted it against Eldrazi or Shardless, but it's terrible if you have to take off turns to cast Loam. I like it with Deathrite Shamans though.
Painful Truths is really the effect you want. Hard card draw is absurdly strong in this deck. Truths also makes Goyfs good against Miracles, even more so than Library does. I would obviously prefer the effect in green, but I haven't found anything I've liked yet (not that I looked to hard).
Eidolon I have actually tested and it's not good enough in the fair matchups. It's ridiculous against combo decks though.
Things I'm fairly sure of regarding my cardadvantage engines:
1) I don't want them to be creatures. Creatures are awful.
2) I'd prefer them not to be blue. Miracles is low on countermagic and I want to exploit that. Running vital spells into Pyroblasts doesn't seem great.
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Actually yeah, I tested Predict earlier today and likewise found it too unreliable. It's definitely NOT a good alternative to Painful Truths.
I actually don't even think the card is all that great in Miracles to be honest -- I prefer Losset's version that just plays cards that WIN instead of a bunch of filtering do-nothings. I mean seriously, what good is it to cantrip into more cantrips, especially in a control deck?
Still though, I think Sylvan Library is a worthy contender. There are a few obvious advantages that it has over Painful Truths:
-it's on-color and doesn't require splashing into a 4th color. If this particular build of RUG becomes popular enough to warrant notice, decks packing Wasteland will be sure to target our Tropical Islands to cut us off 60% of our main-deck threat-base. Getting triple-wasted is unlikely but *does* happen; getting double-wasted is a fairly common occurrence. And you won't always have Stifle/Daze/Fetch protection. And then you also won't get stuck in the unfortunate, though unlikely (but statistically possible) scenario of having Underground Sea as your lone Blue source.
-I actually once tested a version of RUG with 19 lands, with Sea as the 19th land in order to fit 3 Abrupt Decay in the sideboard (this was quite awhile ago, the thought was that having access to a sure-fire answer to Counterbalance and Chalice would be good in a Miracles and Stax-heavy meta). The times where I did get stuck with just a Sea as my lone Blue mana source were memorable enough to turn me off from dipping into a 4th color. It's semi-doable in a deck with Deathrite Shaman, but here I just hate having it as a liability.
-it costs less mana. Supposing you have Daze and/or Force of Will, you can even safely tap-out against a lot of decks on Turn 2 with impunity. I realize that having mana is not an issue against Miracles and many other midrange decks, but Shardless BUG *does* run Wasteland of their own. And against their deck, we really need to keep up mana for our permission spells.
-so yeah, the draw effect is delayed, but Daze + FoW aside, you probably wouldn't be casting any of the cards drawn from PT immediately either unless it's SUPER late game. The fact that you get to activate Library multiple times in a deck with 12 shuffle effects (8 fetch lands + 4 Ponder) also makes it incredibly useful, since at the minimum you're getting a Mirri's Guile effect every turn.
-Granted, drawing 3 cards is much more painful with Library than, um, Painful Truths, but we can theoretically draw more than just 3 cards. Against a deck packing Swords to Plowshares, we probably get even more opportunities to go berserk with the Library.
-if it does get countered/destroyed, Goyf gets bigger. (okay, maybe this is not so good if our opponent is also playing Goyf)
So I guess what I'm proposing is testing out Sylvan Library + another Winter Orb. Every time I draw either card I'll make a mental note of whether I would have really have preferred that it had been PT.
You do not have to convince me of the power of Library. These past few weeks have been the first time I played Canadian without Library since 2012. I do prefer the power of Painful Truths for sure, but if I want the third Orb anyway (which I just might, it's just such a good card), I'm definitely not splashing for just one copy of Painful Truths. I would have to see how the Shardless matchups shakes out then. I also really dislike Library alongside two copies of Dismember, which I kinda want to play right now.
I agree. Losset's version is by far the most scary one. The matchup would be much worse (and even more focused around Orb) if more people played it.
This hasn't been an issue for me so far, it happened once in 195 games. Yes, I am actually keeping track of all my games.
This doesn't make sense. Without the Sea, you would've been stuck without any lands. Obviously only true if it's the 15th land (don't count Wastelands, they don't cast spells).
Running out that turn two Library is defnitely a strong play, especially with the historically low number of Snares and Pierces in current Miracles.
I think being able to draw into countermagic that you can use the same turn is very strong. But I actually do end up in situations where hand size is a concern, so Library storing the cards on top of the library is beneficial. Mirri's Guile is also neat, but time can definitely be an issue. I have lost a match on Magic Online because I timed out with Library (I had it set to always no, but MODO kept removing my autoyields - at least I got reimbursed). It's even more of an issue in paper Magic.
I think the first is actually the biggest issue with Library. It costs too much life. It makes you care about Miracles' Snapcaster Mages, which are usually cards I ignore completely because they don't do meaningful things. This is also an issue against Shardless, with all their stupid 2/2's. Library growing Goyf is not a factor against Miracles because the only thing I use Goyf for is gain life too draw more cards. If Library is in my graveyard, that gets me nowhere.
Yep, going to try this as well before the Grand Prix.
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Testing updates:
I dropped the 2 Painful Truths entirely, in those slots I am running a Sylvan Library and the 3rd Winter Orb. And obviously the main deck Sea has become the third Tropical. I found Truths to be too awkward to resolve reliably, even against the Shardless BUG matchup where it's meant for. Library is pretty much *always* good, comes in a larger variety of matchups, etc. And of course, Winter Orb is just. so. damn. good.
I am also considering dropping the Spell Pierce in the Sideboard for something else, right now it's a Grafdigger's Cage. My rationale is that 1 more permission spell is probably not going to increase our win % verse combo all that much than it already is (which is fairly amazing), and Cage at least gives us the *chance* of beating GY strategies and also is amazing against Elves (which I expect to be fairly popular), and also Storm and other decks looking to recast spells in their graveyard.
However, this might not be the best use of the sideboard slot. I suppose it *could* be the Spell Pierce, or perhaps a Flusterstorm, maybe a 2nd Counterspell, or perhaps even another Submerge or some other removal effect.... but if the slot is meant for MIRACLES, then perhaps it'd be best as the 4th Red Blast effect? I mean, we lose to a resolved Counterbalance for sure, and I think having more outs to that card might be worthwhile. I'm just not sure yet.
If it's for Planeswalkers, then maybe Pithing Needle would be good? A resolved Liliana of the Veil is a HUGE annoyance, and alternatively we can use Needle to name "Deathrite Shaman" and turn him into nothing more than a Squire. DRS obviously dies to every removal spell in our deck, but I have found that late-game attrition scenarios can end up slipping through our fingers with a resolved and unopposed DRS, even if only for a few turns.
I have also found that Null Rod is a sweet option to deal with a wide variety of problem cards.This is probably less necessary since we are running two copies of Ancient Grudge, but just throwing it out there since it *is* quite the haymaker in certain matchups.
Jonathan Alexander, can you comment on what the SB Spell Pierce is meant for? That would help determine what it is that you're trying to achieve with this slot. The way that I sideboard, I usually don't find it all that essential and actually have rarely been siding it in (aside from obviously against combo decks where I have enough slots to take out for more permission).
And by the way, Winter Orb is a key element to this deck's strategy against otherwise "impossible" matchups. I think the 3rd copy is a fantastic use of sideboard space, and while it's true that duplicates are 'useless' since the effect doesn't stack, it's helpful to have multiple copies because A) it increases the likelihood of finding the card in a reasonable time frame, B) it helps to have additional copies in case the first one gets countered/destroyed, and C) it really is the only way aside from extreme luck that this deck can reliably beat certain matchups, And finally D) there are scenarios where it also helps grow our Goyfs, though this is admittedly a very narrow corner case.
Last edited by wcm8; 05-31-2016 at 02:43 PM.
are u testing the same main deck of Jonathan Alexandre ???
I never have issues casting Painful Truths. I almost never try to cast it before turn ~10 though. Didn't get to try out the 3 Orb 1 Library list yet. Mainly because I didn't feel like buying another Orb on Magic Online today. I might play that list in a paper tournament on Satuday though.
Spell Pierce is only medium important against Miracles, but I think's it's quite important in the combo matchups. And I think we need it against Eldrazi. If you find something that covers all of these, let me know; I can't think of anything.
I'm also going to answer PM's later today.
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Yes, except that as I mentioned, I dropped the Sea for the 3rd Tropical Island, and cut the 2 Painful Truths in the SB for 1 Sylvan Library and an additional Winter Orb. I also cut the sideboard's Spell Pierce as a flex-slot: currently I am testing Grafdigger's Cage, but I am actually leaning towards Pithing Needle instead.
The deck is AWESOME. You all should really try it. Slaying a few 'sacred cows' and innovating is the only way to bring a deck forward, and the changes made have increased the win percentage significantly. The main feature of course being the 1-card combo present in Winter Orb
I just really am wondering what JA's justification is for the Sideboard Spell Pierce, hence the discussion in my previous post.
Personally, I find Eldrazi to just be a difficult matchup in general and having an extra Spell Pierce isn't going to do much to help there -- they have TONS of mana and can often play around it. If what you are hoping to counter is Chalice on 1 *and* have something that helps out against Miracles, why not instead run the 4th Spell Snare (as a hard counter to RiP, CBalance, Snapcaster, CSpell, etc.)? As for combo, Snare is essentially dead against SnT decks, but actually not that bad against a lot of other combo decks since it hits, for example, Infernal Tutor, Cabal Ritual, Impulse, Exhume and Animate Dead, etc. Going back to Eldrazi, Snare also has other targets @2 including Mimic, Ratchet Bomb, (in some builds I've seen Exploration Map), Warping Wail, etc.
With Eldrazi, I've found that it basically just comes down to you getting fairly lucky and them stumbling with their draws. It's made a lot more difficult because they run Cavern of Souls so you can't even always expect to be able to counter their creatures. I don't even think that Winter Orb helps out all that much in this matchup, because they seem to have an endless supply of mana and that one land doesn't even require being tapped to reduce their spells by 2. Personally, it's a matchup I would rather hope to just dodge entirely, and I don't think there's really any sideboard option that can satisfactorily make it a positive matchup (unless they printed some sort of City in a Bottle equivalent that hit Eldrazi).
I bring up Null Rod again because here, it does hurt Eldrazi, Miracles and Combo. It turns off Ratchet Bomb and Exploration Map and whatever else sort of artifacts Eldrazi might have; against Miracles it shuts off SDT entirely as well as Engineered Explosives (which does see play in some lists); and against combo it shuts off Lion's Eye Diamond, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, Goblin Charbelcher, etc.
Null Rod single-handedly answers all non-Batterskull equipment, turns off Aether Vial, turns the Affinity matchup into a complete joke (and yes, while Affinity isn't exactly a tier 1 deck, decks like it and Burn tend to be around in the early rounds of a Grand Prix which is what I'm gearing the list for).
Still though, I think Pithing Needle is a reasonable alternative. Plenty of decks have activated abilities that can be answered quite nicely for the low price of 1-mana.
If you really want more permission for combo/Miracles and are willing to forget about Eldrazi for this slot, you can consider Invasive Surgery, Flusterstorm, more Pyroblasts (which by the way, I am running a 1/2 split of REB/Pyroblast due to the reality of Meddling Mage and Cabal Therapy), or simply another Counterspell which is an efficient catch-all.
Alternatively, I have rarely been disappointed with Vendilion Clique to help out in the combo and Miracles matchups. Doubling as an instant-speed win-condition is a bonus.
Finally, depending on how likely it is that you expect to run into Death & Taxes, Sulfur Elemental deserves consideration. Hitting Monastery Mentor tokens, Lingering Souls, all while being a nigh-uncounterable, graveyard-independent, instant-speed threat against Miracles and Combo is just icing on the cake.
Hi guys,
tournament report from Mainz Germany:
I messed around with Snapcaster (Slot of Goyf#4) the last few weeks but was not really statisfied. So I decided to go a very basic route without any spicy techs in the Main.
Standard 54
+ 2 Spell Pierce
+ 2 Spell Snare
+ 2 Dismember (expected a lot of Eldrazi)
As I wanted to try something new I gave Winter Orb a shot and replaced my 2 Vortex with 2 Winter Orb. Last month (I was 4-2 and 9th -.-) Eldrazi ran rampant so I decided to take a Loam and the Ooze (as Tarmogoyf #5) in the Board.
So I ended up with this SB:
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Destructive Revelry (I like to have an out against RIP rarely its the 2nd Grudge)
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Rough // Tumble
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
Round 1 ANT (This guy borrowed the whole Deck from me and played in his first non FNM Legacy tournament)
Match 1
I go down to 6 with 4 Lands 1 Pierce and 1 Stifle and scry a Delver on top. My draws in the whole game are Delver, Land, Land, Delver, Brainstorm (finds Dismember Bolt and Land) and finally a Goose. Needless to say I lost this one. He played the whole game with just 1 Usea in play even Wasteland would have crushed him :D
Match 2
I have all the Counters but no clock. He goes off but messes the combo so he has to midcombo Ad Nauseam (8 life thanks to my Delver) and bricks (stops at 2) but disfigures my Delver. 2 Turns later he can Empty for enough -.-
0/1
Round 2 Miracle
Match 1
I get countertop locked and my Delver gets killed when he is at 4 :(
Match 2
I play the Orb as he has 4 tapped Lands. He never manages to kill it :D
Match 3
I stifle away all his white Mana so a random critter kills him.
1/1
Round 3 UB Reanimator
Match 1
I dont know what he plays so he Griselbrands me turn 1.
Match 2 & 3
I got all the Counters.
2/1
Round 4 RB Reanimator (Legacy is divers :D)
Match 1
I know what he plays and my opening 7 are: 2xForce, 2xDaze, Volcanic, Tropical, Goyf. He thoughtseizes turn 1 and takes the Tarmo because he has a slow start so we play draw go for a while until I waste his manabase into oblivion.
Match 2
He reveals a Chancellor of the Annex and gets it turn 1 into play.
Match 3
He reveals 2 Chancellor so I play Volcanic pass. He unmaskes himself (pithing Dark ritual) revealling exhume petal 2 Chancellor. He tries to exhume the Chancellor and I brainstorm in respons. He remindes the Chancellor trigger so BS is countered but my Daze resolves. Not much action here after this he gets countered and wasted until he dies without any permanents.
3/1
Round 5 Miracle (Legacy is divers :D)
Match 1
He quickly locks me and kills my critter :(
Match 2
I resolve the Orb and the game stalls eternal. In his last turn he has me locked with balance and I attack with Goose he plays a Terminus but I can Force. He fetches trying to find a Volcanic for the REB in his hand....but I had wasted them all :D
After the 2nd match the turns were called so we didnt even start the third match.
So I ended up 3-1-1 winning a bloodmoon :)
I asked all good Miracle player I know what they would fear more the Orb or Vortex. Two of them said that they are not sure and both are good. The other three all said that Vortex would be by far better. I got the feeling that games that were won by Orb would have definitly been won with Vortex but I think Orb has a much more applications (Shardless, Nic Fit....) were Vortex is only good vs. Miracle.
To summarize:
Orb:
+ wider application
+ "combo" with the Deck (Daze, Pierce, Stifle, Wasteland, Submerge)
- doesnt win on its own
- doesnt stack
- forces you to board out Bolts and keep in all Dazes and Lands (also Wastelands)
Vortex:
+ wins on his own
+ stacks
+ more flexible boarding
- very narrow
- can get dangerous if opponents play Clique or Mentor
- harder to cast
Library:
+ most flexible
+ cardadvantage
+ flexible boarding
- lowest impact (compared to Orb and Vortex)
- no wincondition
I tried library some time ago but it always felt weak to me. Vortex and Orb just seem much stronger and the flexibilty of Library isnt worth it probably.
Orb has the minimal Bonus of beeing an artifact which means they cant 2 for 1 you with Wear/Tear :D They also need red mana which is much more relevant as most Lists dont run Basic Mountains but they do run Basic Plains.
Loam and Ooze didnt show up (tried Loam some time ago but was often disapointed.... but I just love the card :D)
Regarding additional draw engines:
If you want something specific against Shardless BUG you could try Compost (also great against Reanimator, Dredge, Storm) but I think its very narrow. aybe cardadvantage is not the correct way to attack this matchup (maybe Loam or Price to hate on their manabase?)
Before you claim that Winter Orb doesn't "win on it's own", I would suggest you do some more play testing with the card. The card pretty much DOES win the game if you resolve it at the right moment. Sure, it doesn't *literally* hit for the last points of damage, but it puts you in a superior position against midrange decks. It turns SDT into a bad card. Just test it more before dismissing its power.
The main reason I run Pithing Needle over Null Rod is Deathrite Shaman
I didnt say that the orb is Bad by any meaning but an unanswered vortex will definitly win and the orb needs additional cards to work out.
I think both cards are good but tackle the Matchup in a very diffetent was. Orb hinders their development or shuts it down completly while vortex presents a Hard-to-interact clock which is also a much better topdeck.
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