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Thread: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

  1. #1801

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Concerning using an USea and feeling uncomfotable without the 3rd green source.
    have you considered running a Bayou in its place and using Wooded Foothills as fetchlands?
    I know that that's one less blue source but it gets you to 1B-3G-5U which still seems ok to me.

  2. #1802
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Not being able to pick Bayou up for Daze would manifest itself a lot more often than getting Double Wasteland'd I would imagine. Plus all your actual interaction is typically blue. Running non-blue duals I think is out of the question for a manabase this tight.

  3. #1803
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I have played the original burg list with Taiga; there's no way I'm running Bayou in this deck. I'm not concerned about 2 Trops anyway. I'm already annoyed with Bayou in Team America.
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  4. #1804

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    hey guys, changing the topic of the discussion: do you bring needle against grixis delver for the DRS? Or just trust in the bolt?

  5. #1805

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I feel like my board plans against Eldrazi is lacking, has anyone thought about this? What i want to do is -4 Stifle, but all i have to bring in is a +1 Dismember +1 Ancient Grudge and +1 Revelry; its pathetic.

    What can we do to make this match-up better? I feel like i've done pretty well against the deck online and live, but i know we are most likely un-favored. Winter Orb, Submerge, Rough, Fluster, REB, Sylvan... all are do nothings against this deck.

    Is Loam/Waste lock a thing vs Eldrazi and worth trying?

    Do you simply keep them off balance and race? That's usually been my plan.

    I've heard people talk about Prince of Progress, but i dont know why taking 4 damage is any good against an aggro deck, even if they are also taking 6 damage. The life race seems to be very tight all the time. However, 2 PoP's in the board could be nice against other decks, too.

  6. #1806

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by LewisCBR View Post
    I feel like my board plans against Eldrazi is lacking, has anyone thought about this? What i want to do is -4 Stifle, but all i have to bring in is a +1 Dismember +1 Ancient Grudge and +1 Revelry; its pathetic.

    What can we do to make this match-up better? I feel like i've done pretty well against the deck online and live, but i know we are most likely un-favored. Winter Orb, Submerge, Rough, Fluster, REB, Sylvan... all are do nothings against this deck.

    Is Loam/Waste lock a thing vs Eldrazi and worth trying?

    Do you simply keep them off balance and race? That's usually been my plan.

    I've heard people talk about Prince of Progress, but i dont know why taking 4 damage is any good against an aggro deck, even if they are also taking 6 damage. The life race seems to be very tight all the time. However, 2 PoP's in the board could be nice against other decks, too.
    Wtf, I was just thinking the exact same half an hour ago. I as well only have these three cards to bring, so I usually bring an extraction as well, but yeah I would prefer a better card in the sideboard against them. I want to test PoP, it's good against lands as well and they rarely expect it coming from our deck. The thing is, if 4 life points it's that big of a deal to play PoP against eldrazi in a given moment, we probably are not going to win the game anyway. PoP can do work against more fringe decks like 12-post or mud as well.

  7. #1807
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Price of Progress is great against them. Even better when they use Ancient Tomb a few times. A second (or third) Dismember in the board also helps.

    I usually board like this:

    +2 Price of Progress
    +1 Winter Orb
    +1 Destructive Revelry
    +1 Ancient Grudge
    -4 Stifle
    -1 Spell Pierce (on the draw) / -1 Forked Bolt (on the play)

    Winter Orb is really good against them, as well. Save your Wastelands for Cavern of Souls and Eye of Ugin to make Daze useful.
    Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return

  8. #1808

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Sounds about right, i didnt think there were any magic bullets out there. PoP just feels like a nom-bo with Wasteland and the mana denial plan, in general, but it seems worth a shot. Thanks.

  9. #1809

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    For eldrazi I actually cut 2 Nimble Mongoose, 2 stifle, 2 spell pierce and bring in 2 artifact destruction (grudge/grip/revelry, etc. People are often running a different split of these. Just bring in whatever 2 you have), 1 clique, and 2 rough // tumble, and a dismember.

    Hear me out on rough tumble- I've actually won ever game I've drawn it, I tested the matchup with my friend ad nauseam the other night. A lot of times they shit out a bunch of mimics / reshapers / endless ones fast. This is hard to deal with. Rough clears the board out and slows down their aggressive starts. Otherwise, for example they have mimic + TKS on board. you can Rough + bolt to effectively trade 2 for 2 with them.

    I cut 2 goose and add 1 clique because nimble is just out classed so quickly. Additionally, if we want to cast early rough // tumble, goose is also at odds with that plan. You never feel good about trading a goose for a reshaper and otherwise the eldrazi deck just has bigger threats. You really need the evasion and clock from clique rather than goose. I leave 2 stifles in for their wastelands, TKS trigger, mimic trigger, jitte trigger, and most importantly, they will probably side in ratchet bomb to kill your goyf.

    I've also had good experiences with playing a flex slot or two to grow goyf past 4/5. This plus their artifacts means goyf is regularly 6/7!

  10. #1810
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    With my Painful Truths list, I board out the Stifles for 2 Grudge, 1 Orb, 1 Pierce. I like that plan.

    I've tried Loam and think it's terrible in this deck. It's too unreliable and eats up too much mana. I only like Loam with mana acceleration.

    In my experience, the games I lose are the ones where they start resolving Smashers and Seers. Tarmogoyf is the most impactful card in the matchup and I feel you should be alright if you run four, which most of you do.

    I'm trying out a few things again that I'm not entirely sold on. The deck hasn't been really been performing for me over the past week (much of that is due to the massive metagame shift online in anticipation of the Grand Prix weekend). This is very unfortunate, because I want to test, but I barely get to play against what I expect to be the winning metagame in Prague. Instead, I have to play against Burn and Dredge variants a lot, which is disheartening both because those aren't great matchups and because I feel I'm wasting my time there.

    (Wow, seeing this post, it looks very arrogant.)
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  11. #1811
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander View Post
    Instead, I have to play against Burn and Dredge variants a lot, which is disheartening both because those aren't great matchups and because I feel I'm wasting my time there.

    (Wow, seeing this post, it looks very arrogant.)
    But it's true, arrogant or not.

    I mean, look, the lines of play in these matchups are comparatively simple and typically come down to whether you have 'it' or you don't. And in that regard, "playtesting" against them is a waste of time for tournament-preparation purposes, because decks like these are really nothing more than outliers that tend to be encountered in the earlier rounds and increasingly get kicked off the X-0 bracket as the tournament goes on.

    To be fair, they are competitive decks, technically speaking, but because of their linearity they aren't very fun decks to play or play against. And I think their linearity and weakness to hate is why, generally speaking, competitive players already invested in the format dislike registering them in a large-scale tournament.

    Occasionally there might be an interesting, interactive game against these two matchups, but all too often it's just an exercise in frustration. Rolling die or flipping coins would probably yield similar results as playtesting the matchup. The results tend to be very draw-dependent.

    I think that it's worth knowing the matchups to give yourself a chance at winning, but yeah, I kind of doubt that either of these decks will be making the Grand Prix's Top 8 and neither deck is probably worth devoting much/any sideboard space towards.

  12. #1812
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Regarding the Eldrazi matchup:

    Well, first of all, I decided to move the Winter Orb to the sideboard (2 copies total, but both in SB). I love the card, I really do, but I am taking RUG to the Grand Prix this coming weekend and I feel like the American metagame is so random that I would probably benefit more from another Tarmogoyf in the MD to help deal with random fringe decks that still see a lot of play (goblins, merfolk, slivers, burn, etc.), especially in the early rounds. Against UWr Miracles (which is where Orb *really* shines), I actually feel fairly favored in game 1 as long as they don't get a nut draw of un-answered T1 SDT, T2 CBalance. In Games 2 and 3 I have sideboard slots that make the matchup even easier. While Orb does a ton of work, I think (at least right now) I just want another threat in that slot that's far less random.

    Okay, so with 3 Tarmogoyfs we have better potential of matching up with Eldrazi on the ground. With the various card-types being played, growing Goyf to a 4/5 or 5/6 is not unusual.

    Sideboarding, I go like this:

    -4 Nimble Mongoose
    -4 Stifle
    -1 Spell Pierce

    +2 Rough // Tumble
    +2 Ancient Grudge
    +2 True-name Nemesis
    +2 Winter Orb
    +1 Sylvan Library

    Nimble Mongoose tends to match incredibly poorly against the majority of their threats, especially since by the time you reach threshold it may be too late to really do anything aside from chump-block. Stifle does pretty much nothing, and Spell Pierce has only a few targets and it's likely that with all of the Sol Lands they play that it wouldn't resolve favorably anyways.

    Rough//Tumble can sometimes take out several of the smaller Eldrazi or at least finish off the bigger ones.

    Ancient Grudge takes care of Chalice set to 1, and some lists might bring in a Jitte as a target. Ratchet Bomb is popular as well (though for that, perhaps you'll have Spell Snare).

    TNN is a sturdy wall and an unblockable threat, so he comes in.

    Sylvan Library comes in since the games can tend to go long, and at worst, having a free Mirri's Guile isn't bad.

    Regarding Winter Orb: to be completely honest, in the Eldrazi matchup it isn't always good, but sometimes it's worth a shot. Ideally, they won't draw Eye of Ugin and will instead have to actually tap their lands. I don't know; maybe it's not even worth it and we should just keep in Spell Pierce and a Mongoose. But with Orb, there are occasionally games where they tap out for something big, you counter it (ideally with an unopposed threat already deployed) and then follow up with an Orb, setting them back a few turns (or perhaps at least putting their next attempt(s) into Daze-range).

    Cavern of Souls needs to be your Wastelands' targeted priority since the only way we tend to win is by being able to counter their 'important' stuff (TKS, big Endless Ones, the hasty-5/5, etc.). But obviously you take what you can get, and sometimes you can out-race them if you resolved an early Delver and they're stuck with Ancient Tomb(s) as their only land.

    It's definitely not a good matchup (40-60 AT BEST, and probably more likely 30-70), and ideally you can just dodge it entirely. But I have actually managed to win a few matches against the deck, though of course a fair bit of luck was involved.

    edit: more testing has made it somewhat apparent that Winter Orb tends to just not be all that helpful against this particular deck. I think you're probably better off just leaving in Nimble Mongoose and/or Spell Pierce.
    Last edited by wcm8; 06-06-2016 at 09:22 AM.

  13. #1813

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    wcm8 we have arrived at similar board plans for eldrazi, this makes me feel good about my conclusions. I don't have any TNNs in my deck however if I did I would certainly bring them in against Eldrazi. Little bit of a nonbo with rough // tumble though so be careful!

  14. #1814
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    wcm8 we have arrived at similar board plans for eldrazi, this makes me feel good about my conclusions. I don't have any TNNs in my deck however if I did I would certainly bring them in against Eldrazi. Little bit of a nonbo with rough // tumble though so be careful!
    Very true, but if it's a matter of life or death, I'll gladly trade my TNN for killing off their board.

    Ideally though, you can time it right and cast R//T *before* your TNN.

    I have had the following happen: I'm on the play and land a turn 1 Delver, pass. Eldrazi opponent opens with an Eye of Ugin, casts 2 Eldrazi Mimic and an Endless One with x=2. He's probably all smug in the knowledge that racing that kind of board state is going to be pretty damn difficult, especially if he follows up with some bigger Eldrazi. He passes. I reveal some sort of spell, flip the Delver, play a second Land and cast Rough, one-sided Wrath'ing his entire board and swing in for 3. Then Daze whatever his turn 2 play was.

    [player X has conceded the game]

    I mean, yeah, it was literally Magical Christmas Land, but that's the sort of thing it's going to take on occasion for us to get there.

    It is *NOT* a good matchup, and if I knew for a fact that I was going to be facing Eldrazi for multiple rounds in a given tournament, I'm not so sure that I'd be slinging RUG Delver that day.

    The thing is, at worst R//T will kill off their smaller Eldrazi on your own turn and can help finish off the bigger ones with the addition of combat damage/Lightning Bolt/Dismember. So I think unless you have something better to bring in, it's a good option.

    Good luck to everyone attending the Grand Prix this weekend.

  15. #1815

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Yea, I totally agree. Those are the most difficult starts for RUG to deal with since our removal is extremely constrained throughout the match up. I had several of those in play testing with my friend.

  16. #1816

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    RUG delver is the only unbeaten deck in GP prague as of now, 11-0. He is playing hooting mandrils instead of the goose tho, I suppose to have aa better eldrazi pairing

  17. #1817
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    8-3, about to begin round 12 on day 2.

    If I knew I was going to face Death and fucking Taxes FOUR times day 1 (which is where I got the 3 losses) I would've been packing sulfur elementals and probably forked bolts in the main or at least a split with dismember.

    Oh well, hind-sight 20/20 etc.

    Onto the next round.

  18. #1818
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    12-3

    Didn't play black; cut the Truths for the third Orb and a Surgical Extraction. Report yes/no?
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  19. #1819

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander View Post
    12-3

    Didn't play black; cut the Truths for the third Orb and a Surgical Extraction. Report yes/no?
    yes of course. Congrats on the finish

  20. #1820

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Good showing guys!

    I'm really digging the look of the GP Prague top 8 list, too.

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