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Thread: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

  1. #2861
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Luca Grease View Post
    The consensus is pretty much not to play stifle anymore. It doesn't fit with the new cards and style of the deck (which is much more powerful than before). Stifle might get you some free wins occasionally, but it's not worth it in the grand scheme of things. It's too often a semi dead card, and even where it's good, the deck doesn't have to extend the early game that much now that it has much more raw power to go toe to toe with midrange and control in the late game.

    A few more observations from testing:
    - I didn't like arcanist initially and refused to test it for the longest time, but it's a house. Just make sure you're playing the fifth bolt along it to clear out those tarmogoyfs.

    - although it was initially hastily dismissed because of its anti tempo, w6 vulnerable nature, hexdrinker might actually have some merit, as both tournament results and personal testing show. I wouldn't play more than 1 copy though since you don't usually want multiples. Currently slotting it in place of the fourth tarmo

    With w6 filling our hand with extra lands in the grinder matchups and our slightly higher mana curve, it seems
    Jtms is replacing winter orb as the new anti-control bomb of choice. Can't go wrong with that one, I guess...

    - the crop package revolutionizes many matchups, giving us outs in situations where we would previously auto scoop. Depths, show and tell, lands and reanimator players will get blown out a few times before they start playing more carefully and conservatively (which is good for us no matter how you slice it)

    EDIT: looking at the playoff results, the real issue seems to be a looming Wrenn and Six ban... Variety in large tournament results has always been the main criteria for bans, and Rug seems to be taking over legacy, plus the card is also present in other lists like 4c control, lands, and aggro loam. 5/8 top 8 decks are playing it, and I don't see the trend reversing anytime soon

    Stifle has been dead for me. And w6 needs the fastest ban for this deck.

    In the mirror, its whoever drops w6 in first and protects it

  2. #2862
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Luca Grease View Post
    The crop package revolutionizes many matchups, giving us outs in situations where we would previously auto scoop. Depths, show and tell, lands and reanimator players will get blown out a few times before they start playing more carefully and conservatively (which is good for us no matter how you slice it)
    Crop rot, really? That IS pretty spicey. My backup deck is always gx lands. This somehow super appeals to me as a thought. Is it being run mb or sb?



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  3. #2863

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Mostly as a 1 or 2 of in the side, along with karakas and sometimes bojuka big. Some have tried it main though, not sure that makes sense, since the silver bullet lands are still in the side

  4. #2864

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Luca Grease View Post
    Mostly as a 1 or 2 of in the side, along with karakas and sometimes bojuka big. Some have tried it main though, not sure that makes sense, since the silver bullet lands are still in the side
    Usually these are decks with 3 Wrenn and Fiery Islet so there is at least one spicy land maindeck, and just as a way to access wasteland it's not totally awful

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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    If you were going to run a singleton of one of the following in the main 60, which would you rather choose:
    Sylvan Library
    Narset, Parter of Veils

    Library only costing 2 is a very relevant difference, however given the deckís relative mana stability granted by W&6 ramping to 3 mana isnít all that difficult. Narset is great in that she provides a form of draw disruption against plenty of the format, and at worst sheíll provide 1 or 2 impulses. Is blue, pitches to Force.

    Library is really great in a Miracles-heavy metagame, however nowadays that deck sees less play. However, it is somewhat hard to lose a game where you resolve an early Library, as it fixes your draw steps every turn and can be used to get ahead on cards if you arenít up against a particularly aggressive deck. Itís such a powerful effect that any Green deck needs to justify a reason to not be running 1-2 somewhere in the 75.

    In both cases, either getting countered/destroyed will grow Tarmogoyf so thatís a somewhat relevant bonus.

    Another question: what do you prefer to run as your 5th removal spell?
    Chain Lightning is the closest to Bolt #5.
    Magmatic Sinkhole is better at killing bigger creatures and planeswalkers.
    Abrade is good at dealing with the various artifacts that are somewhat ubiquitous.
    Fire // Ice can be really amazing in certain narrow cases, and I think the utility makes it more worthy of consideration than Forked Bolt these days.
    Engineered Explosives is a potentially amazing sweeper that can deal with stuff that you might otherwise be unable to deal with ó and also grows Goyfs.
    Dismember kills off X/5s and can be cast from any land. The 4 life and inability to hit planeswalkers are relevant downsides though.
    Any other spells that people like running?

    Also, has anyone tested running a main deck copy of Cindervines? Artifacts are fairly common enough to warrant at least considering Abrade, but CV also doubles as a sort of threat if landed early enough

    Final question for now: has anyone had much success with running Winter Orb in the sideboard? Is it justified given the current metagame?

  6. #2866

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Between the two, I would probably choose library because it grows goyf, although I think neither is necessary in the current meta (not enough uw control).

    If you're playing arcanist (you should) then you'll want chain lightning as your 5th removal. You'll face a lot of w6/tarmo mirrors, and Arcanist can be very good or very bad against tarmo depending on whether you have a bolt or not. Also, it kills opposing arcanists cleanly. Sinkhole is a nice upgrade to dismember and being able to clip opposing pws is nice,but tarmo is too often a 5/6 these days for it to reliably answer it (or for us to really need it against angler). Also, it's another gy card that increases your vulnerability to rip (minor but not irrelevant). I like abrade for its versatility and as an answer to prelate, but DNT has been beaten down enough by wrenn that I don't feel the need to edge against it anymore. Still, it kills arcanist and chalice, so it might be the best alternative to chain lightning.

    I have tested vines and i don't really like it. The extra Mana feels like a pretty big downside when you want to destroy that equipment or chalice asap. The damage is nice but when you board it in your really want it for the disenchant effect, and instant speed is much better for obvious reasons. I've gone back to revelry since.

  7. #2867
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Luca Grease View Post
    Between the two, I would probably choose library because it grows goyf, although I think neither is necessary in the current meta (not enough uw control).

    If you're playing arcanist (you should) then you'll want chain lightning as your 5th removal. You'll face a lot of w6/tarmo mirrors, and Arcanist can be very good or very bad against tarmo depending on whether you have a bolt or not. Also, it kills opposing arcanists cleanly. Sinkhole is a nice upgrade to dismember and being able to clip opposing pws is nice,but tarmo is too often a 5/6 these days for it to reliably answer it (or for us to really need it against angler). Also, it's another gy card that increases your vulnerability to rip (minor but not irrelevant). I like abrade for its versatility and as an answer to prelate, but DNT has been beaten down enough by wrenn that I don't feel the need to edge against it anymore. Still, it kills arcanist and chalice, so it might be the best alternative to chain lightning.

    I have tested vines and i don't really like it. The extra Mana feels like a pretty big downside when you want to destroy that equipment or chalice asap. The damage is nice but when you board it in your really want it for the disenchant effect, and instant speed is much better for obvious reasons. I've gone back to revelry since.
    Thanks to W6, goyfs are usually pretty big already. its at least 5/6

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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Letís talk tertiary creature options. Letís assume that Delver, Goyf, and to some extent 2 copies of TNN are a given.

    Dreadhorde Arcanist is really powerful if he gets going, but you also want to add a critical number of spells (e.g. 2 Preordain) to ensure you always have something worth re-casting. However, it dies to everything.

    Nimble Mongoose got sidelined due to the relative speed of the format, as well as the seeming decline of Miracles. However, I could potentially see it continuing to see play if UWx decks return.

    Hooting Mandrills is an interesting alternative creature, which can be easily supported by running some number of Thought Scour. It has the advantage of dodging Bolt and Decay, as well as ignoring graveyard hate if already deployed. Being a 4/4 enables it to brickwall a lot of the format, including opposing Arcanists. Finally, trample enables it to cut through a board stall, even against a TNN or Mother of Runes.

    Young Pyromancer typically only sees play in straight UR Delver, but itís not impossible to consider RUG running some number of these guys to allow for a go-wide strategy. Iím actually strongly considering adding 1-2 copies to my list for the sake of variety and potential blowouts.

    Then thereís some other more obscure options, such as Pteramander, Grim Lavamancer, etc. A significant problem a lot of these face is having 1-toughness, which is a huge liability in a format with W&6 (and a strike against Y. Pyromancer). Plus, thereís no guarantee that hate-bears like Scavenging Ooze or Collector Ouphe will line up well against your opponent, hence making them better sideboard fits.

    Anyways, whatíre you guys testing? Does Hooting Mandrills deserve the slot over Arcanist, or is Arcanist just so good on a stalled board that nothing else really compares?

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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Why not a 4th W6 and & GSZ to have a 5th Tarmogoyf ?

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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by MinosSnt View Post
    Why not a 4th W6 and & GSZ to have a 5th Tarmogoyf ?
    As good as W6 is, too many copies can get flooded. The general rule of thumb for legacy blue decks is:
    4 copies if you donít mind frequently seeing multiples every game
    3 copies if you want to reliably see at least one copy the majority of games
    2 copies if itís a spell youíd like to cast once in a game but typically no more than that
    1 copy if itís something you only want to see rarely; is a unique effect thatís weak in multiples (e.g. Sylvan Library), or is functioning as a ď5thĒ copy of an existing card (e.g. Force of Negation as the 5th Force of Will)

    Itís not super common, but there *are* some decks against which you may consider siding out W6.

    Anyways, GSZ is an interesting idea to function as Goyf #5, and it opens the door also to running some utility creatures in the SB (e.g. Collector Ouphe, Scavenging Ooze). I recall back in the day, that in tempo mirrors you never wanted to cut actual copies of Goyf for GSZ though, as youíd often get outnumbered eventually and the 3-mana aspect of GSZ makes it more vulnerable to the various counterspells.

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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by wcm8 View Post
    Itís not super common, but there *are* some decks against which you may consider siding out W6.
    Isn't it super common to side out W6 against unfair decks like Rakdos Reanimator, TES and other decks that can kill you on the 3rd turn?

  12. #2872

    [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I side w6 out a lot. Sometimes 2, sometimes all 3. I rather keep tnn because it pitches to fow and bolt because it can reduce the clock or get cheap wins vs ad naus or griselbrand draw 14.

    I dont think GSZ has a spot. Itís too slow. I dont think you want to flood on 2 mana dumb beaters neither.
    Iíve been testing a ScOz as itís a hatebear in addition to beater. Mixed results.
    I actually would add like to try another 1drop beater, be it either hexdrinker or reclaimer.
    Reclaimer could further a crop rotation plan post board and finds wasteland for a wren lock. Thatís not bad for a 1 mana mini-goyf

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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I honestly thought Hexdrinker was completely unplayable but actually the first copy of that card has been quite good so far. I do recommend 1 copy. I've never tried Reclaimer but that card has been a house in Depths lately.

    Agree with JackaBo about taking out W6 quite a bit vs fast combo. I'm actually playing 4x Wrenn main but I take them all out vs Reanimator, Storm, etc.

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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Both RUG decks in the top 8 of the latest GP were running 2 copies of Hexdrinker. If ever there were evidence for the card being a worthy inclusion, here it is.

    Also in the top 8 list was the return of multiple copies of Submerge in the sideboard. A well timed casting of this spell can function as a brutal form of Timewalk, and itís great in both the mirror and generally deals with Marit Lage (and even better, it gets through a Chalice on 1 like you may occasionally encounter against Lands.dec). Finally, it provides a potential out against a resolved Knight of the Reliquary.

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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Hi guys. If I may. I've been running a rug shell for a while now, and I'm wondering why the deck has added up to 19 lands instead of the 18 we used to run? W6 seems to usually dictate fewer lands than usual, not more. I kinds wanna cut a fetch for another preordain. I'm on 19 currently with a basic island owing to btb basics decks, the mirror, and ghost quarter / assassin's trophy if it gets through.

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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Also, what ceature do you cut for a hexdrinker? A goyf or a tnn or what? I'm on 4 delver, 3 tnn, 3 goyf, and 2 arcanist

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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I will also add that reclaimed is very gross and a 3x4 beater with a cool backup ability is very good...probably not in this deck tho. Doesnt feel right. Hexdrinker is best ok, bc for the cc of tnn you get to activate the first ability. I'm still not super sold on it, bc it's a full tapout turn, usually.

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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Malfeischylde View Post
    Also, what ceature do you cut for a hexdrinker? A goyf or a tnn or what? I'm on 4 delver, 3 tnn, 3 goyf, and 2 arcanist

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    Arcanist is not for this deck.

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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Malfeischylde View Post
    Hi guys. If I may. I've been running a rug shell for a while now, and I'm wondering why the deck has added up to 19 lands instead of the 18 we used to run? W6 seems to usually dictate fewer lands than usual, not more. I kinds wanna cut a fetch for another preordain. I'm on 19 currently with a basic island owing to btb basics decks, the mirror, and ghost quarter / assassin's trophy if it gets through.

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    The 19th land is either Lonely Sandbar or (more commonly) Fiery Islet, both of which function more like a spell than a land since they're being run for the sake of drawing cards, especially with Wrenn's +1 recursion ability. These are both very powerful in tandem with W6's ability, and Islet in particular is good at giving you a bit more mana accessibility when necessary. However, Sandbar is better at drawing cards since it's an instant-speed ability that you can do at the end of your opponent's turn and doesn't require a land drop. It's completely reasonable to run the UG version instead of Fiery Islet too.

    After more testing, many players (myself included) have come to the overall conclusion that right now, Hexdrinker is the superior option over Dreadhorde Arcanist. This deck wants creatures that can close out games, and Hexdrinker is essentially a modernized form of Nimble Mongoose. It's not difficult to get him leveled up in the midgame, which will protect him as the vast majority of Legacy removal spells are Instants. And if you're at a point in the game where you're facing down a Jace, you very well might be able to get him to ultimate size, and thus dodge Jace's -1 Unsummon ability. Hexdrinker is great at breaking eventual board stalls, as well as dodging graveyard hate like Rest in Peace, Leyline of the Void or Relic of Progenitus -- which cause problems for Tarmogoyf, Nimble Mongoose, Hooting Mandrills and Dreadhorde Arcanist.

    It's true that a well-timed Arcanist can easily run away with a game, but he's not so great against decks that play creatures of their own which seems to be where RUG can struggle the most.

    Also, I agree with a lot of the suggestions from Jarvis Yu after top-8ing the latest Grand Prix. Here's a link to his report: http://llarack.blogspot.com/2019/09/...x-atlanta.html

    The decklist he recommends going forward:

    4 Delver of Secrets
    2 Hexdrinker
    4 Tarmogoyf
    2 True-Name Nemesis
    3 Wrenn and Six
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    1 Force of Negation
    4 Force of Will
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Ponder
    1 Preordain
    2 Spell Pierce
    2 Spell Snare
    1 Fiery Islet
    2 Flooded Strand
    1 Misty Rainforest
    2 Polluted Delta
    1 Scalding Tarn
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island
    4 Wasteland
    2 Wooded Foothills

    Sideboard:
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Blue Elemental Blast
    1 Crop Rotation
    1 Force of Negation
    2 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Hydroblast
    1 Karakas
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    3 Submerge
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Sylvan Library

    I think this is a good starting point, with minor changes in the sideboard made based on your expected metagame. 3 copies of Submerge seems right if you expect to see a fair number of big Green creature decks; if you instead expect to run into a fair amount of Reanimator and/or Dark Depths, running Vapor Snag instead is probably the right call.

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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Thanks for the link to Jarvis' post. Yea I trust him a bunch. I have the islet as land 19 as well. Like it more than sandbar bc it comes in untapped although I understand the utility of sandbar. Hoping to figure out the list before scg. Think I may play it there. Gotta see. Currently still a bit up in the air about hexdrinker although a lot of people have been loving it

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