You should post a picture of your deck once assembled, since I seem to recall you being the owner of a bunch of pimp Beta cards.Originally Posted by sdematt
I am playing some pimp in my list as well (no Foils though, not a fan of them -- the only foils being used are the Insectile Aberattions that I have sleeved in a different colored sleeve to lay over my Delvers when they flip). Black-bordered old-style Lightning Bolt, black-bordered GERMAN Winter Orb ("Frostbringer"); Beta Red Elemental Blasts, first-edition printing of all cards (except Mercadian Masques Brainstorm for * ~ A E S T H E T I C S ~ *; also I like the new Daze artwork better than the old one). I'll have to post a picture myself here shortly.
I think it'll take a few days until I'm going to properly reply to your posts, wcm8.
I just wanted to drop by and ask if you guys are interested in a more thorough article on my deck than what I've written so far. I'm talking card choices, sideboarding and game plans. Should I do a write-up?
Don't mind me, i'm just writing about Pauper these days: theweeklywars.wordpress.com
deckstats.net archive
The headers are wrong, the numbers inside are correct. My bad ;)
Yes. It would be greatly appreciated.
So here is my short report from GP Prague.
I went x-1-6 with this list:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Hooting Mandrills
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Tarfire
3 Stubborn Denial
4 Stifle
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 2 Rough // Tumble
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Destructive Revelry
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
I play tarfires to get goyfs bigger than anglers and smashers, and also to get him big fast to enable stubborn denial. I play probes to get the monkeys out fast, while also giving me critical information. Probes also help to get sorcery in GY and not just rely on ponders.
1: Elves 2-0
Bolts and submerges goes a long way, especially submerging a turn 1 arbor, which is a huge tempo play. Mandrills also shuts off their chump block + bounce trick while also enabeling stubborn denial to be a hard counter for Order. I didn't even draw Rough/Tumble.
2: Painter 2-0
I just delver him out while he walks right into my dazes every turn.
3: Miracles 2-1
I drew sylvan both post games, which made me able to grind him out. Mandrills + Stubborn denial is amazing in this MU.
4: Ant 1-2
Really close games.
5: BUG Delver (with strixes and snapcasters) 0-2
I'm otp and starts with a t1 delver into mana denial, but he just keeps drawing lands and finally finds a decay for my delver, and while I cantrip for more creatures he lands a strix and right after a goyf. I find my own goyf, but he snaps back the decay. In g2 he just murders me.
6: Belcher 2-0
This MU is really easy for RUG
7: Grixis Delver 2-0
I don't think I have ever lost to this deck.
8: 4c Delver 1-2
G1 he plays an early sylvan library and simply outgrinds me. In g2 I go full mana denial ftw. In g3 I revealed a submerge for my delver, and I already had another submerge in hand. He killed my delver fast and he never played a trop for the rest of the game. He simply played out his goyfs from drs while I drew nothing else relevant.
9: Elves 2-1
Same as round 1, and also with no help from rough.
10: Reanimator 0-2
I don't know what he is on and I go t1 delver with fow+blue card in hand. He goes off and reanimates griselbrand t1 and dazes my fow.
In g2 he plays a pack rat. I only had 2 bolts left in the deck and I luckily had one in hand, so I bolt the rat, but he fows and I fow back. Next turn he exhumes the rat and the board goes out of hand, while my delever doesn't transform for 10 turns and I only draw lands.
11: Jund 1-1
G1 took too long and I should have conceded after he landed a sylvan library. I delver him out g2, but there is no time left for g3.
12: DnT 2-1
This is a really good MU with this version of the deck.
13: Shardless 2-0
Same as with DnT.
14: NicFit 0-2
He just have the perfect start both games, with explorer into therapy and I can't interact with him at all.
15: Painter 0-2
He is otp and plays t1 blood moon. I have no answers so I concede. In g2 I keep a hand with lands ponder, bs and probe. I probe him and see that he can play an ensnaring bridge t1. I ponder and find a revelry, but he topdecks a blood moon and play that instead. I concede again. Shortest round I have played in my life.
I was very happy with mandrills, which was very good for me the whole weekend. The changes I have done to the list afterwards is to replace a surgical with a cage to help with the storm and nicfit matchups.
Last edited by echofish; 06-17-2016 at 08:10 PM.
Thanks for sharing as well the discussion earlier. As I said, I will definitely give Mandrills some testing.
JA, looking forward to your report and responses to the discussion.
Same props for everyone else contributing to the thread lately. I think we can collectively figure out an ideal configuration for this deck and bring it back to Tier 1 status. Although, being off the radar has its benefits too :)
After 3-0 the legacy local league on thursday I went 1-4 today in a MKM series trial. Felt so bad... I think a rest in peace coming from maverick in my game 3 of the first match tilted me for the whole tournament. Will try to write a report tomorrow.
The best answers to Rest in Peace are to simply counter it: Daze, Force of Will, Spell Pierce, but especially Spell Snare are your friend (spell snare is *amazing* right now, and deserves a minimum of 2 slots., and running 3 or 4 is completely justifiable as well). But failing that, you can use Stifle to keep your current Goyfs happy and/or maintain Threshold for your Mongoose (or have some cards for an eventual Hooting Mandrills summoning). Alternatively, you can rebuild your yard post-RiP by using Destructive Revelry, Krosan Grip, etc...
It's been quite some time since I've used it, but I am also a fan of Seal of Primordium. I used to play it in my older Team America list (back in the 4 Goyf/4 Tombstalker/4 Sinkhole/4 Snuff Out days), but honestly the card is still playable. Seal has a few advantages over other methods of artifact/enchantment removal: it can be deployed preemptively, which helps against Blood Moon decks and also Counterbalance; you can cast it early just to have mana open later on as opposed to casting the removal later; it grows Tarmogoyf; it gets Shown and Told (useful if they've put a Omniscience or Sneak Attack into play); it can't be hit with Flusterstorm and similar counterspells; there are other advantages I'm sure you can come up with. This is a spicy card that's definitely worth considering, even with some of the newer stuff that's been printed competing for the slot.
How do you guys side versus Grixis Delver? I've been seeing it a lot lately, and i have a tough time if my Goyf doesnt get to 5/6 and they stick an Angler... which they always seem to find one of their 2 Anglers.
I play a Tarfire and Dismember main, so getting a Goyf to 5/6 does happen sometimes or sometimes i can Dismember the Angler, but that sure hurts the life.
Here is what i am currently jamming:
http://deck.tk/1pAu2v06
I tend to bring in a Pyroblast and REB blast, 2 Rough/Tumbles, and a Flusterstorm. I cut all my Forces and a Daze on the draw or the Chain Lig on the play. Sometimes, if i want to get cute, i'll bring in Surgical and try and hit a Volc or U Sea after i Wasteland it. Which, not surprisingly, does win on the spot.
I feel like there has to be better SB cards for this deck, though. With Grixis being much more popular than any green builds, i'm not sure why i still run two Submerges and might replace one with something Grixis related. It might just be Dismember, but my prob with Dismember is that while i want see one, i never want to cast 2 against almost every deck they are used for. Just too painful.
Curfew is a possible answer to a lone Angler ;)
I'd cut the Chain Lightning and add a Fire/Ice. I've loved that card since forever, and tapping down Angler or nuking two small guys isn't bad.
re: Submerge -- I agree that this card is somewhat narrow in the current format. It's absolutely amazing at doing what it does, but if Forest decks aren't being played as much, perhaps it's best to put it back in the binder until a more opportune time.
Mind Harness is a classic RUG sideboard card. While we might not be capable of paying the upkeep cost for very long, often a turn or two is all we need to gain a significant advantage from it -- and in top-deck Draw/Go mode, it's often better than Submerge in that you can outright steal the opponent's threat and perhaps even finish them off with it.
I think against Grixis this card might be better, as it would enable us to steal their Pyromancers, Deathrite Shamans and any other tertiary R/G creatures they've brought in (e.g. Grim Lavamancer). Careful Grixis and BUG players will try to avoid fetching their Tropical Island/Bayou in order to avoid the threat of Submerge; Mind Harness can be cast regardless. Additionally, once in the graveyard it adds another card type to further grow our Tarmogoyfs.
You can bring Mind Harness in against many of the same decks where you'd be bringing in Submerge (e.g. Maverick, Jund, RUG, BUG variants, Elves, etc.), but it can also come in against the occasional Goblins and Burn deck you encounter.
That all said, I'm not saying that Mind Harness is necessarily the card you are looking for. Really, if you want more removal spells for decks packing smaller creatures, cards like Grim Lavamancer or Sudden Demise are quite good, as are additional copies of Forked Bolt or Rough // Tumble. While Gurmag Angler can be problematic, I think you are fairly limited with RUG's options beyond Dismember or maybe Roast.
Unrelated: speaking of unusual sideboard cards, I found a really obscure one: Scald. It's probably just a worse version of Sulfuric Vortex for this deck, but it was interesting to see this card being played as a 4-of in a recent Naya Zoo list: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/421435#online
I board something like this:
Otd +2 rough, 2 pyroblast, 2 flusterstorm // -4 stifle, 2 pierce.
Otp something similar except cut some forces or something.
I think the most common mistake made in this match up is the miss-asignment of roles. Grixis Delver has:
More reach/ damage via deathrite, wide pyromancer plan
We can't really race them without having a nut hand. So, the next reasonable plan is to take on the control role meaning more removal. While daze is bad otd their deck plays lower to the ground then ours.
Stifle is just too much of a blank against them and since they have more damage, mana, and effectively removal (when looking at angler lining up with our threats and strix post). We can't afford a dead card in this match up.
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Hey guys, i use to play RUG delver many moons ago and loved it a great deal. I have since moved to shardless but am having some poor luck with it. I wanted to ask, what keeps you guys on rug and not make the switch to grixis and i may be looking to make a move back to delver and not sure which i should go to
I suppose some people are jamming RUG because they don't want to/can't afford to build other decks. For me though, playing RUG is not a matter of card availability. I can build plenty of Legacy decks, including all variations of Delver and BUG, UWr Miracles, Reanimator, etc. I also have the cards to build Maverick, Jund/Junk, D&T, etc.
I think there's actually an advantage to being 'under the radar' and being perceived by other players as 'irrelevant', 'not Tier 1', 'out-dated', etc. Obviously I think their dismissals are wrong, but in any case it works to our advantage in that they are not sideboarding as heavily against RUG and/or are not expecting cards like Stifle and are more likely to be taken by surprise. Being the 'underdog' means you aren't facing as much direct resistance in terms of card selection and/or play-testing preparation from your opponents.
Decks aren't really built or played in a vacuum; I consider RUG Delver a good choice because of what is being played right now. I think RUG (at least with the right configuration) has the best matchup against UWr Miracles compared to any other Delver deck. Sure, the other versions have their own advantages, but I think the combination of Nimble Mongoose, Stifle, Bolts for reach and sideboard options makes us well-situated against the format's current 'Best Deck'. So until/unless a card(s) get banned from Miracles and knocks that deck down a notch or two, RUG will continue to be a good foil to the format's biggest problem in addition to being well-positioned against the various combo decks being played right now.
The one factor I would say that hurts RUG moreso that other Delver builds is its relatively bad matchup against D&T -- but this is true of the other Delver decks too. D&T is popular enough to modify your deck to beat, but unfortunately the standard builds running Mongoose + Tarmogoyf gets nailed hardest by Rest in Peace and also needs to draw removal in a timely fashion to deal with stuff like Mother of Runes + Serra Avenger etc. So I think stuff like Sulfur Elemental is warranted (while also being not-awful against Miracles and combo by virtue of being an Instant-speed, un-counterable threat that ignores graveyard hate).
That all said, playing some other version of Delver (BUG, Grixis, 4-C, straight UR, or even UWR) is a completely justifiable choice. They each have their own advantages and disadvantages. While Deathrite Shaman *is* a busted card, I personally don't think there is one version of Delver that is clearly far and away better than the others. I think that Grixis' popularity and perceived 'success' has more to do with the 'sheep' effect moreso than it being 'superior' to the other Delver decks -- by this I mean that if it performs well in one tournament, more players are willing to net-deck the winning list, and thus more and more players are playing it and thus more copies of Grixis Delver get registered instead of other versions of Delver, and so it is simply more statistically likely that Grixis Delver will continue the trend of being the Tier 1 Delver deck being played. It's a positive feedback loop: more Grixis players (and it *is* a good deck) = more Grixis top 8 results.
This is a great response. I appreciate it. I do truly love RUG delver, it was always so fun to play, but i do recall it being a nightmare against d&t, which i play against very consistently
What do you guys think about putting Ground Seal in the SB for dealing with Surgical Extraction effects as well as hosing Life from the Loam and reanimator? I also want to make room for 1-2 Tsabo's Web for dealing with Lands.
Ground Seal is okay, as a method of Grave hate that doesn't hurt us. But to be entirely honest, Surgical Extraction is probably just better -- it's 'free' (well, 2 life), and pretty much definitively deals with Loam *and* Punishing Fire (which can be problematic at times). The other problem with Ground Seal is that it doesn't prevent cards from entering the graveyard, and both decks you mentioned can use Abrupt Decay to get rid of it and entirely undo the resistance you've achieved. Ground Seal also is ignored by Exhume since it doesn't target, and it doesn't prevent Punishing Fire recursion. Seal also does comparatively little against Dredge and other various graveyard decks. If you want a SB card to deal with this sort of strategy, the best options for RUG are the following: Surgical Extraction; Grafdigger's Cage (also great against Elves and other GSZ/Natural Order decks); Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus (if landed early, it's one-sided, and can also cantrip). Extraction + Cage are nice together as they can be brought in against a range of decks.
Tsabo's Web is alright, but don't forget about Winter Orb. Orb is especially powerful against Miracles and various midrange strategies, and practically just as good against RG Lands. I think sideboard slots are limited as it is, so you want to play the cards that hit the most type of decks and/or are the best tools for the job... so unless you *know* RG Lands is going to be around, Orb is less narrow. Furthermore, if you wanted a card to specifically win the RG Lands match up, Price of Progress is probably better and has been showing up in winning lists.
Honestly I play it because it's what I'm most comfortable with and it has the best miracles match up out of all the delver decks. All other delver decks lack a shroud threat and stifle. The other decks can support tnn, but either don't have stifle or end up tapping out for it leaving them vulnerable. Despite it being out classed in delver mirrors you still have ok match ups across the board. Now some people will argue this that it lives and dies on the stack unlike other delver decks. This is true but that's also it's greatest strength. The rug variant provides the most free wins especially if the opponent isn't familiar with it. For instance at a recent tournament it was game 3 against deathblade I'm otp.
T1 fetch pass, opponent does the same. T2 another fetch goose go. Opponent plays fetch pass. I play wasteland pass he plays sea. Eot I waste he brainstorms fetches, I brainstorm his fetch resolves. I never had stifle or found it off the brainstorm. I still found another waste and won the game.
For a bit of background I knew the opponent from weeklys. We had played before and knew what each other was on. The point is even if people know you're on rug while you do lose some percentages you can sometimes leverage that against your opponent. Rug delver I think more than any other deck can really get in your opponents head.
The opponent has decisions like: do I fetch now to play around stifle, but open myself up to waste? I could jam this here to play around daze, but if he has force then I've wasted time and giving him tempo.
Any deck can only afford to play around one of our counter spells at a given time. So they roll the dice on the counter spell cocktail of force, daze, pierce, snare and stifle. Usually if they guess wrong on their critical turn it's a blow out.
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One of the shops in the Denver area was having a Legacy SCG IQ yesterday (Sunday 6/26), which is a fairly rare occurrence for us. Colorado has a fantastic Magic scene, but it is usually Standard and Modern that sees the sanctioned tournament action. I was psyched, for sure, and did a bunch of testing with RUG Delver over the last few weeks to prepare. After a practice sesh online, on Friday, resulted in a 5-0 record in a competitive league, i figured i was ready to go rock this shizz! The turnout was better than i think everyone expected it would be, 51 people, so 6 rounds of swiss, and i brought the same 75 i 5-0'd with:
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/435589#online
Round 1 vs BUG Food Chain
In game 1, i had a pretty gross RUG hand and Stifled/Wastelanded his manabase into oblivion. However, all i saw were a few U Seas and a Trop. He stuck a Gurmag Angler late, but it was too little against my board and after i double bolted it away, he conceded. Game 2 was the opposite problem and he flooded out big time. I mis-boarded, though, thinking he was on Grixis Delver, due to the Angler, and not really seeing any other relevant cards, but when he tried to stick a Food Chain, i was able to Pierce it and finish the game off, no harm no foul, haha… phew.
Win 2-0
Matches 1-0-0
Round 2 vs Miracles
The first game was relatively unremarkable, he won the roll and had a turn 1 Top, but i Dazed his greedy turn 2 Counterbalance. I started out strong with a Delver that he seemed to be having a hard time finding an answer for. It eventually got Plowshared, but i kept following up with threats, one at a time, until he was dead. Game 2, he stuck a Counterbalance, but i was able to blind flip/miss and destroy it with a Pyroblast. I chipped away a few times with various creatures, who kept dying (or getting put at the bottom of my deck), but when i had enough counter backup, i windmill slammed a Sulfuric Vortex and that sealed things up as he didnt board in any Wear/Tear and i Force'd a Council's Judgement.
Win 2-0
Matches 2-0-0
Round 3 vs Grixis Delver
He won the roll, which i knew would be trouble when he turn 1’d a U Sea and Delver. I looked at my burn’less hand and felt sad for myself. The game was over fast when i had my only two lands Wasted. Game 2, i was on the play and it turns out a double Delver hand, with counter backup, and burn, is pretty good in a Delver mirror. So, two blowouts and we move to game 3. Things were getting dicey when he had a DRS, Young Peezy, and an unflipped Delver on his side of the board, but the Rough side of a Rough//Tumble turned the tides big time for me. A Goose and a Goyf crossed the finish line.
Win 2-1
Matches 3-0-0
Round 4 vs Grixis Delver
Another Delver matchup where i lost the die roll, got browned on game 1, but then gave it right back, just as hard, in game 2. We eyed each other down, trying to figure out how this game 3 would go. Thinking back, now, i feel like there were a lot of fair decks in the room, Grixis Delver probably being the most popular, but plenty of Miracles, Lands, Elves, DnT, and BG(x), i’m not sure what happened to combo, but maybe that is just my local meta. Anyways, my opponent mulls to 6, i keep this hand {Ponder, Ponder, Scalding Tarn, Wasteland, Bolt, Rough//Tumble, and Daze} which looked great. He mulls to 5, and in my head, i’m already punching my ticket to the top 8, this hand is great to 1-for-1 him on route to an easy win. He keeps the 5, plays fetchland, go (didnt even try to play around Stifle, the maniac). I play Tarn, fetch a Volcanic Island, play Ponder, and see {Wasteland, Wasteland, Tarfire}. I was hoping to find another colored source of mana, but i figured i should keep these 3 and just Ponder again next turn. He kept 5, i thought to myself, so maybe the mana-denial plan is a good route to go. I pass, on his turn 2 he plays a Wasteland, hits my Volc, passes. I’m fcked and never see another colored land. I hold him off a few turns with my own Wastelands, but he keeps having lands, and eventually a Peezy, and then, eventually, the win. That felt disgusting, as i had all the answers i would have needed to easily beat a 5 card opener. I still feel violated... get rekt, me.
Loss 1-2
Matches 3-1-0
Round 5 vs Miracles
My deck started running cold and in game 1 i kept a hand of {Bolt, Bolt, Dismember, Trop, Volc, Daze, Delver}. In theory, against a blind opponent, not a bad hand, but this turned out to be a terrible hand against Miracles. I proceeded to draw all the rest of my Dazes, lots of lands, and no Brainstorms to fix this sinking ship. Game 2, i kept a land heavy hand, but it had Sulfuric Vortex, so i gave it a whirl. I landed the Vortex while we were both around 18 life, but i never got anything after that to get me ahead in the race and he got in a hit with a late Mentor. My few creatures didnt stick and i saw no burn, so i eventually died to my own Vortex when i started to flood out. Literally a few Bolts would have won the game. This match didnt go at all the way i planned. I usually like my Miracles matchup, and board plan, but i needed far more draw manipulation, or any Brainstorms at all, to smooth it out. The 2nd game keep might have been loose, 4 lands and no Brainstorm is asking for trouble and trouble is what i got!
Loss 0-2
Matches 3-2-0
Round 6 vs Grixis Control
With only a prayer to make top 8, i settled in and had a great match. This guys deck was very much like Grixis Delver, but without Delvers, added more lands, and Jaces. Kind of like the Grixis Pyromancer list the Legacy Gauntlet had online the last few weeks. I didnt see much game 1, as i tempo’d him out, and game 2 he flooded hard. Rather forgettable match, unfortunately. We played a game 3, for fun, and i got to see what he was actually up to, and he beat me with Pyros and Deathrites, but the slip was already signed, so GG’s buddy.
Win 2-0
Matches 4-2-0
Wrap-up
My 4-2-0 record was good enough for 11th place and a few packs plus a free month of SCG Premium as consolation prizes. The top 8 consisted of 13+ point players, or 4-1-1 and better (i briefly looked at the top 8 and saw Eldrazi, Miracles, G. Delver, Lands, Death and Taxes, then 3 unknowns). All in all, I had a great time, and like i said, it is far and few between for there to be a real swiss and top 8 Legacy tournament in my area. Legacy nights are fun, at the local shops, but a no proxy competitive REL feel is the real deal. I would probably play the exact same 75 if there were another tournament tomorrow. I love RUG and i still think it has plenty of game in this meta. I feel like my entire day got hosed by a single Wasteland in round 4 game 3, but thems the breaks! Besides not shuffling that Ponder, I feel like most of the day i played tight, made full use of my disruption, then got aggressive at exactly the right moments. When the deck was humming, i felt unbeatable.
So, objectively speaking this card is often going to be a worse Remand, and that card doesn't even really see play in RUG (although in theory, it could be alright -- after all, Disrupt remains fringe-playable, and tempo is still relevant in this format).
However, Unsubstantiate does offer some added utility in that it can be used to bounce a creature that's already in play. Perhaps when we are looking at the 60th card and want something with versatility, this might be something worth considering as it's applicable against pretty much every strategy.
On the other hand, utility isn't enough on its own to justify a card's inclusion. Izzet Charm doesn't really see play, for example.
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