Hey guys,
I usually do not play Canadian T, but I am a big fan of it and read your site all the time :-) sometimes I even dare to play it ;)
Anyway, I have a question: how is it that Winter Orb is fading away? Even against post-top Miracles it can be good - or not? Maybe Kolaghan's Command makes it bad against Czech Pile and that is why it is gone.
Thanks for you expertizes ;)
If by Swords to Plowshares you mean 'any spot removal that kills Mandrills' (which in legacy is mostly STP I suppose) then this does make sense.
If your Mandrills dies then you need to follow up with another threat, and if the only available threat is Mongoose then you might not have threshold anymore
How do you feel about Counterspell as a card to play against control decks?
Seems good to counter their payoff cards, and generally giving you more late game power. I might try to replace something for it.
I was wondering this as well. I haven't played legacy in about 3 months. (Between work, and finding a decent legacy LGS near staten island, NY) But anyway, I find one of biggest issues is not being having a hard counter for a large creature threat mid - late game. I was actually trying counterspell as mainboard, but it was frequently unnecessary Game 1. I think it would be a great SB in this deck, but people with way more experience and skill in this deck advise against it.
My meta is not that large, The decks I seem to play often are DnT, Elves, Eldrazi, BUG Delver. On rare occasion Grixis Delver.
My current build is:
Main (60)
Creatures (11)
4x delver
4x nimble mongoose
3x tarmogoyf
Spells (31)
4x brainstorm
4x ponder
4x force of will
4x daze
4x stifle
3x spell pierce
2x spell snare
4x lightning bolt
1x tarfire
1x dismember
Land (18)
3x volcanic island
3x tropical island
4x wasteland
4x polluted delta
4x flooded strand
Sideboard (15)
3x REB
1x spell snare
1x flusterstorm
2x graffdiggers cage
1x surgical extraction
1x ground seal
2x ancient grudge
1x slyvan library
1x sulfur elemental
1x dismember
1x dead/gone
1x TNN
I know I should probably mainboard a Seal of fire, for both removal and tarmogoyf, I just don't like that it doesn't flip Delver. I find spell snare to be the MVP in a lot of games. I did try the Hooting mandrills route, I did find the lack of synergy with mongoose to be problematic. Fatal push is not hard to deal with, nor do I see it being played that often. As for mainboarding a TNN. I would love to, but I feel 3 CMC is high for this deck, and it can just be sideboarded in with library against control.
So I digress, does counterspell belong in this deck? I feel its one of those cards that so simple, good, but overlooked.
Post 2474 in this thread (only a few pages back) Sean Brown liked the 1 SB counterspell in the list that he played.
I played this card maindeck for quite a while and I think that it's just too clunky, especially in Wasteland mirrors. If you want 1 generic card to 'smooth' your selection of spells then I like 1 preordain.
In the SB I don't think it's a horrendous choice either but I feel that I would rather pick a card that was better against more targeted matchups
For example my SB in my most recent events was
1 Barb Ring
1 Loam
2 TNN
2 Surgical
2 Grudge
1 Forked Bolt
1 Winter Orb
1 Honden
3 Reb/Pyro
1 Spell Pierce
(4 Goyf 2 Seal 2 Snare 1 Pierce 1 Preordain main)
My main problem with this config (apart from thinking that maybe the Winter Orb is unnecessary / could be better as something else) was that I thought that 3 REB was too many because I didn't have enough interaction against nonblue combo/prison decks. My immediate reaction was therefore to cut 1 Red Blast for 1 more Spell Pierce.
It would be a comparable choice to play 1 Counterspell and 1 Pierce SB instead of this 2 Pierce, which makes your combo matchups slightly worse and your 'long game' matchups slightly better. I think this is perfectly reasonable but with the rest of the setup I have, I feel that am more afraid of fast Reanimate, Blood Moons etc than lategame control decks or decks where I need to counter creature spells.
Let me clarify. I believe your original comment was in regards to Goyf vs Monkey.
Both get exiled by swords to plowshares. But, our best card vs swords to plowshares is Nimble Mongoose. If you play Monkey + Goose, I believe this is the worst configuration of creatures to fight Swords to Plowshare decks.
Obviously it is the best configuration vs fatal push.
I agree that in a non miracle dominated world, 3 blasts is too many.
When you are worried about fast reanimates, fast blood moons, etc, REB is just silly. I also only play 2 REBs (well, pyroblasts, but yea) and additional copy of spell pierce in my sideboard.
At this point I am doing a 2/1 split of grafdiggers cage/Surgical extraction, do you think it would be better to drop 1 REB, and do a 2/2 grafdiggers cage/Surgical extraction split?
The reason I personally play 3x REB/Pyro it is great to have hard counters for snapcasters and TNN which are very common and problematic. REB has actually been useful to me vs U/B reanimator, as a hard answer to their FoW back up for reanimate.
Maybe im over thinking it. Thanks in advance for any advice.
If this is your SB
Sideboard (15)
3x REB
1x spell snare
1x flusterstorm
2x graffdiggers cage
1x surgical extraction
1x ground seal
2x ancient grudge
1x slyvan library
1x sulfur elemental
1x dismember
1x dead/gone
1x TNN
3x REB is a lot!!
What is the purpose of the Spell Snare?
I think you are very heavy in grave hate. I run 2x Surgical, 1 Cage.
What is the purpose of Dead // Gone?
Dead // Gone is an anti-MaritLage card (Turbo Depths is not a favourable matchup)
For example in my SB I would seriously consider cutting the Forked Bolt for Dead/Gone but this makes the Elves and DNT matchups worse
I agree that REB is good vs TNN and Snapcaster, but you cite UB Reanimator and I think the RB version is much more popular at the moment and spell pierce is still good against both.
Also it depends on your maindeck
If you already like 2 pierce main then maybe you only need 1 pierce or 1 flusterstorm SB and you can afford to play more REB instead (REB is also the best card vs the 4x Strix decks)
This is my current build, the only changes to the main that am considering is dropping 1x spell pierce for 1x preordain, and/or dropping 1x dismember for 1x seal of fire. I just do not like that seal of fire doesn't flip delver, but its does grow goyf.
My current build is:
Main (60)
Creatures (11)
4x delver
4x nimble mongoose
3x tarmogoyf
Spells (31)
4x brainstorm
4x ponder
4x force of will
4x daze
4x stifle
3x spell pierce
2x spell snare
4x lightning bolt
1x tarfire
1x dismember
Land (18)
3x volcanic island
3x tropical island
4x wasteland
4x polluted delta
4x flooded strand
I will explain my sideboard logic, I am very open to suggestions.
Sideboard (15)
3x REB - A lot of blue targets as previously mentioned - TNN, snapcaster, strix, even opposing Delvers in a pinch. Hard counters are underestimated in my opinion. This card (or pyroblast) I believe is a huge SB advantage over the BuG Canadian lists.
1x spell snare - MVP card, but to play 3 mainboard is risky - great against Grixis, DnT, Stoneblade, even BUG Delver that's play hymns. Hard counter for RIP.
1x flusterstorm - Storm, extra counter in mirror when boarding out a couple FoW's.
2x graffdiggers cage - Obviously B/R and U/B reanimator, Dredge, but also my most hated matchup, elves
1x surgical extraction - Multiple really uses for this card, its free. Against reanimator its great, but also in a lot of matchups its great, such as wasteland a certain dual and take them off a color.
1x ground seal - graveyard protection against DRS, keeps goyf bulky, very important against Eldrazi and Angler decks. Shuts down opposing snapcaster trigger.
2x ancient grudge - Artifact removal that can be used twice. Kills artifact creatures as well.
1x slyvan library - Grindy control matchups when opponent doesn't have a fast clock. I have even used against reanimator, paying 12 life to have card advantage to keep griselbrand off the board.
1x sulfur elemental - DnT
1x dismember - I think 2x dismember mainboard is too much, but this deck needs answers for anglers and Eldrazi's.
1x dead/gone - Yes, as you mentioned great against MaritLage/Turbo Depths. But also good as a 7th removal against a variety of decks. Dead kills many weenie creatures, elves, Thalia, Mother of Runes, DRS, opposing delvers, Young pyromancer, etc. Gone is great for bouncing back that big delve creature that they just exiled 5-6 cards from there graveyard to cast, and now they cant recast it. Also good against eldrazi.
1x TNN - My least favorite card in SB, but when playing against a deck with a ton of white removal and graveyard hate keeping your goyf small and your mongoose without threshold, you need this card.
Once again, im very open to suggestions. Thank everyone for all your input and help.
I would not think a 3 mana unsummon is something I would actively board in against lands. I could understand running the Dead // Gone in the main deck as you can either kill a deathrite or unsummon a gurmag (with some upside to hit a fatty) etc. But reliably getting to 3 mana against Lands is something I am not sure I would count on. Vapor Snag / Seal of Removal are both options if you seek that effect.
With 2 Snare and 2 REB I already have 4 hard counters at the ready for strix / snap. Even stifle can stop snapcaster, usually can then ignore the 2/1 body. And then for TNN I just daze those things, getting to 3 mana against our deck should be difficult. And then also REB / force of will if daze is not an option.
If you feel good about the number of cards you have to fight various decks, I'm not going to change your sideboard, because play style is very important when deciding what cards you should run.
What I would ask for example - Do you find that you bring in a lot of impactful cards for most matchups? Or that you have a lot of marginal upgrades?
When I say this I mean...you have 3 REBs, 1 snare, 1 fluster, 2 Grafdiggers, 1 Surgical, 1 Ground Seal, a lot of anti combo cards there. You arguably want all of these against UB reanimator and storm for example (Except the Ground Seal vs storm). Bringing in 8/9 cards for those match ups is overkill IMO, you can easily beat both with 6-7 cards.
I feel my mainboard is well positioned against most fair decks. I actually feel this deck this pretty decent game 1 against most decks in general. I love this game, however time constraints and lack of legacy players in my area, means I don't play nearly as many games as I would like. I created this sideboard based on answers for the reasons I lose games or have lost games. I try to play this deck as intended, as an aggro/tempo/permission deck. However in some matchups I realize I have to be the control player.
Let me elaborate on the most common ways (or decks) I lose, or have lost to consistently, and then I think youll have a better idea of me as a player and to why my sideboard is what it is. These are NOT taking into account games I lost due to myself making stupid mistakes or decisions.
1) A griselbrand or similar ridiculous creature that resolved due to losing a counter war, or it happened turn 1.
2) Mid or late game, not having an answer for a large legitimately casted creature usually Angler/tasigur, and my goyfs being either removed, or my graveyard eaten my DRS or something, and I get out raced. Happens with Eldrazi to a lesser extent, but reality smashers and thought knot seer's suck...
3) Im sure this is an issue for all Delver decks but Chalice on 1.
4) Not having enough removal Against small creature heavy decks like elves/merfolk
5) Lands... Enough said
So those being the main ways I lose, I tried to SB to correct them. I feel my sideboard is extremely impactful against a moderate amount of decks. You mention UB reanimator. for that I would board something like:
-1 stifle
-1 tarfire
-1 dismember
-2 spell snare
+1 flusterstorm
+1 surgical
+2 grafdiggers cage
+1 sylvan library
So I have more counter magic that can hit reanimate, exhume. Surgical extraction might as well be a hard counter as I can extract their target creature for free. Grafdiggers obviously is best hate card against any reanimator deck. Sylvan library allows me to maintain card advantage to prevent their combo.
In general, my goal is to have sideboard options to go more aggressive, or be able to switch to playing permission with more countermagic and/or hate. I guess my sideboard is more geared against combo/mirror/delver decks.
I really do appreciate any advice or criticism. Sorry for long post. Thanks in advance for your time and help.
Sometimes your reanimator opponent has it all...turn 1 griselbrand with daze / force back up *shrug*. Try not to let these games impact you too much. Just try to focus on playing the best magic every match.
Earlier you said this...
And then you say thisREB has actually been useful to me vs U/B reanimator, as a hard answer to their FoW back up for reanimate.
You should be bringing in REB against UB reanimator, and don't be shy about pyroblasting their ponders / brainstorms / careful studies if you have other cards like Spell Pierce / Flusterstorm at the ready. They also likely are going to board into Show and Tell.-1 stifle
-1 tarfire
-1 dismember
-2 spell snare
+1 flusterstorm
+1 surgical
+2 grafdiggers cage
+1 sylvan library
I never liked the card Sylvan Library against combo, mostly because I never find it good to tap 2 mana at sorcery speed for something that will help you next turn but no immediate effect. Also if you pay lots of life vs storm, they can easily natural tendrils you, for example.
If I was sideboarding with your deck, I would do the following against UB reanimator
-1 Tarmogoyf
-1 Dismember
-1 Tarfire
-4 Lightning Bolt
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Surgical Extraction
+2 Grafdigger's Cage
+3 REB
I only ever lose to reanimator when I can't interact with them (Hence cutting bolts and a creature). Also, it is slightly weird to have Surgical and Ground Seal. Spell Snare is good vs Reanimator BTW - they have Exhumes, possibly Animate Dead, and Collective Brutality. I would not cut them (But I wouldn't board in additional copies).
I suppose you could shave a stifle on the draw, but not something I would be keen on doing. You can stifle an Animate Dead trigger FWIW.
It's less for lands and more for Turbo Depths, that deck is all about making Marit Lage ASAP and unlike RG lands they have Pithing Needle for your Wasteland so it's much harder to interact with the combo. (And they aren't attacking your mana so there shouldn't be too many issues with playing a 2R spell). Having a spell that destroys Marit Lage is a huge boon (especially because in RUG colors they will often play in a way that assumes you can't beat a resolved Marit Lage) and in other matchups it's still Shock, which is fine. (If you don't think you need extra removal for other matchups then you can play Repeal or something else instead)
@bl4ckwell
I was typing out a response to this but Ryan has basically summed up what I was going to say.
I think if I had the choice against UB Reanimator of 3 Snare and 2 Reb or 3 Reb and 2 Snare I would go with the 3 Snare, but there might be a way that you can fit both. (And the Ground Seal, and maybe the Sylvan Library). In any case leaving all REB in the SB and not boarding Bolts out seems like a mistake.
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