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Thread: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

  1. #2721
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I've been playing RUG in leagues the past two weekends. I believe I've had 3 4-1's, 5 3-2's and 2 2-3's. Good not great. I think RUG is definitely the best tempo deck in legacy. I'm trying to sort my thoughts here. I feel if I can figure out a few tweaks, those 5-0's are within reach.

    Current list:

    4 Delver of Secrets
    3 Tarmogoyf
    3 Hooting Mandrills
    1 True-Name Nemesis

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3 Mishra's Bauble

    4 Lighting Bolt
    1 Forked Bolt
    1 Dismember

    3 Stifle
    3 Spll Piece
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will

    4 Wasteland
    3 Flooded Strand
    3 Pollute Delta
    2 Misty Rainforest
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island

    2 Abrade
    1 Ancient Grudge
    2 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Surgical Extraction
    3 Pyroblast
    2 Spell Snare
    2 Winter Orb
    1 True-Name Nemesis

    I just don't think Nimbe Mongoose is very good anymore. Winter Orb is good in the same matchups. Hooting Mandrills is bigger, has some kind of shroud, gets around Chalice of the Void, isn't stonewalled by True-Name Nemesis... the list goes on. Hooting Mandrills is definitely the best creature in the deck after Delver of Secrets. It's very difficult for me to imagine not running it.

    Mishra's Bauble is a poor man's Gitaxian Probe, but it's been pretty reasonable. It grows Tarmogoyf past Gurmag Angler and excelerates your Mandrills. Obviously it doesn't flip Delver of Secrets, but you can scry the top card of your library in conjunction with a fetchland or check the top card of your library and know whether you want to burn a Brainstorm to flip your Delver. I used to not like running Gitaxian Probe and Dismember in the same deck because of all the life loss, but obviously that's not a concern here. 2x Dismember is definitely a much more reasonable option than with Probe builds. The next marginal option is Preordain. I find Preordain to be a lot worse than Ponder and not growing Tarmogoyf past Gurmag Angler is definitely a tactical shortcoming. Cycling into Brainstorm, Force of Will, Wasteland and creatures for free while giving some information on what the opponent is playing seems to be underrated given that I'm literally the only person runing Mishra's Bauble in a tempo deck in Legacy.

    Matchups:

    BR Reanimator:
    This match up has been pretty 50/50. It really comes down to the die roll. Being on the draw game 3 is pretty unfortunate. This deck has me considering Leyline of the Void.

    Dredge:
    Dredge seems to be making a reasonable showing on MODO, taking advantage of people Surgical Extraction only as their graveyard yard. I switched from 3 Surgical Extraction to the 2 Surgical Extraction/2 Grafdigger's Cage split to help combat this, sometimes it's still not enough to beat a broken draw.. People sure have improved the decklist, does anyone remember when Dredge used to run Deep Analysis? I'm considering Leyline of the Void.

    ANT:
    This can be a touch match-up, it depends on the opponent. They can definitely trick you by going off with Empty the Warrens when you're holding up Force of Will for Infernal Tutor. Seems to be matter of how good the pilot is. This is a matchup where I like Surgical Extraction, it's great to at least get a look at their hand when going off so you know what to counter.

    Sneak and Show:
    I guess feel slightly better agaisnt Sneak and Show than ANT. Pyroblast is certainly much better against Sneak and Show than ANT and they can't surpise Empty you.

    Lands:
    Lands seems to be reasonably favorable. Sometimes they just have broken starts, but if your Force of Will their one good spell they aren't doing much. Surgical Extraction and Winter Orb out of the sideboard are great.

    BG Depths:
    This matchup seems to be reasonably favorable. The combination of Wasteland plus counterspells plus clock seems very hard for them to beat. Mulligan for Wasteland or a hand that has good shot of finding Wasteland. This is one of those matchups that make me glad I have Abrade in the sideboard because only some builds run Pithing Needle.

    Eldrazi and other Ancient Tomb decks:
    These decks all seem to be pretty favorable. The combination of fast clock, counterspells and Wasteland seem to do it. I definitely wouldn't want to be running Nimble Mongoose against these decks.

    Miracles:
    This deck definitely crushes Miracles like it's supposed to. Miracles is mostly air these days, just kill them quickly. Winter Orb is obviously a house out of the sideboard. I like bringing in Surigical Extraction here.

    Grixis Control:
    This matchup unfortunately seems to be less than 50/50. I think figuring out a good way to beat Grixis Control is the key to unlocking the metagame. I board out all the Bolt effects but keep Dismember. I board in Ancient Grudge, Winter Orb, True-Name Nemesis, Pyroblast and Spell Snare. Winter Orb is always a blowout against Miracles but is only good is some situations against Grixis. When they win, it's usually a combination of Baleful Strix and Gurmag Angler. This matchup makes me want a second Ancient Grudge in the sideboard and Sylvan Library.

    U/R Tempo, URG Tempo, UBR Tempo:
    Every other tempo deck I've played against is slower and plays worse cards. These are all very favorable. Unfortunately, people don't seem to be playing them as much.

    Death and Taxes, Maverick:
    Death and Taxes is the metagame whipping boy, it only beats bad decks in the metagame. I guess it's pretty good against RUG, but the matchup doesn't come up too much and they can have problems against a strong hand. Maverick seems to be more of a mainstay in the metagame than Death and Taxes. I ended up cutting the second Dismember for a Forked Bolt and cutting the 4th Tarmogoyf to move a copy of True-Name Nemesis from the sideboard to the maindeck which gave me room for 4 graveyard hate spells. I won the one match I had against Maverick with this change in place but its definitely a rough matchup.

    So I would like to work out a configuration that can beat Grixis Control. Sylvan Library would be good there and Mishra's Bauble is much better with Sylvan Library than Gitixian Probe because no life loss. Winter Orb would be the cut for Sylvan Library, but I would miss the Winter Orb effect against Lands. If had Nimble Mongoose to beat Maze of Ith, I would feel better about cutting Winter Orb, but Nimble Mongoose seems to be terrible. Surgical Extract is probably the better against Lands than Winter Orb, but I'm considering cuttign Surgical Extraction for Leyline of the Void. Perhaps accepting a worse Lands match up is the way to go.

    I also want to run the 2nd Ancient Grudge in the sideboard but Abrade really is effective. Abrade is the best artifact removal spell agaisnt Maverick where it isn't clear how many aritfacts they might be running. Decks like UR Delver are sometimes running Ensnaring Bridge these days. I definitely like having extra removal spells to bring in against Elves.

    I guess I'm going to jam a build that runs Leylines and Sylvan Library and see how it goes.
    //End Rambling//

  2. #2722

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Dead last out of 31 players
    1-2 Moon Prison
    2-1 Shockland Hypergenesis
    0-2 Moon Prison
    1-2 DNT
    0-2 Miracles

    4 Delver Goose Goyf
    4 Bolt Stifle Force Daze Brainstorm Ponder
    2 Snare Pierce Seal

    6 Duals 8 Fetches 4 Wasteland

    2 Grudge
    2 Surgical
    2 TNN
    2 Winter Orb
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Red Blast
    1 Cage
    1 Library
    1 Lavamancer
    1 Honden

    Notes
    - Destructive Revelry costing RG would be a significant drawback because you can't use it to kill bridge through a moon (I've always thought that Grudge is the best artifact hate but this is another point that became obvious today)
    - If the 8Boss version of Red Prison becomes popular then it becomes advantageous for your SB removal slots to be something that can deal 2 like Lavamancer, Rough&Tumble etc
    - I'm very skeptical that the Orb plan is correct vs Death and Taxes
    - If cascade combodecks become popular then playing a deck with 4 maindeck Stifle is very appealing
    - Full shroud plan still seemed good vs Miracles (when he tried to snap brainstorm in G2 and I surgicaled it his hand was 3 plows, sadly he topdecked AK for 3 into 2 ponders into next turn Entreat and plow his own Angel to survive bolt + tnn)

    Possible misplays:
    1 Being too conservative with FOW g3 vs Moon round1
    2 Not mulliganing G2 vs DNT and boarding wrongly (orb)
    3 Sequencing cantrips weirdly G2 vs miracles that meant i shuffled all my lands away but ended up with a hand of 8 spells and had to surgical mainphase


    I still like this creature/spell mix. Tarmogoyf being a huge 2 drop with no strings attached is too good imo. There is an appeal to playing maindeck TNN but I don't think it's right for RUG (maindeck 3drops in waste/pierce/stifle/daze deck).

    I can't think of any changes that I would do to improve this 75 but it still doesn't seem very good overall.
    There's still a smattering of RUG topping events but I would be interested to see the conversion rate.

  3. #2723
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Hey all, new-ish to RUG and wanted to get everyone's thoughts on some ideas. List for reference:

    Main Deck:
    3 Noble Hierarch
    4 Delver of Secrets
    2 Tarmogoyf
    2 Hooting Mandrils
    2 True-Name Nemesis

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    4 Daze
    4 Stifle
    2 Spell Pierce
    4 Lightning Bolt
    1 Dismember
    1 Dead//Gone

    4 Ponder

    8 Fetches
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island
    4 Wasteland

    1 Winter Orb

    Sideboard:
    2 Winter Orb
    1 Ancient Grudge
    2 Abrade
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Spell Snare
    1 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Izzet Staticaster
    2 Pyroblast

    Notable changes are 3 copies of Noble Hierarch and no copies of Nimble Mongoose. More on this later.

    There's a question facing every URx Delver player regarding the role of Black vs. Green. The last few years have peppered us with a smattering of strong black cards while yielding very few cards for the green slice of the color pie. As a result, green's role of overstatted and undercosted beaters has been largely supplanted by other colors. So what's the incentive to play green?

    Enter Noble Hierarch. Ever since the banning of DRS green has taken its mantle back as the best color for cheating on mana, and I feel this is an axis which RUG can abuse to stay competitive with its Grixis Delver counterpart.

    Noble Hierarch is incredible in the deck for a variety of reasons. First, it does an excellent job at smoothing out our mana in the early turns. Picture an opening hand with Mongoose, Daze, Wasteland, Stifle, and fetch land. It's pretty common given that the deck maxes out on all of these in order to leverage the mana denial plan. You lead with fetchland into Mongoose, Daze their first play, then untap and use the Wasteland on their lone dual. So what's the Stifle doing now? There's an awkward tension between all of the pieces of early game mana denial, and without a mana dork I don't think the deck is suited to take advantage of all of its tools. Swap out the Mongoose in the above scenario with a Hierarch and all of a sudden you can also hold up the Stifle for the fetchland that your opponent plays on turn 2. This is just one of the many scenarios in which leading with a Hierarch might be beneficial over a Mongoose.

    Second, Noble Hierarch lets us play bigger threats to help us stay relevant on board. It's no secret that Nimble Mongoose gets pretty quickly outclassed on board in today's legacy meta game, but bigger threats come with their own slew of problems in such a mana-light deck. What if you want to deploy a Tarmogoyf on t2, but also want to leave up mana for Spell Pierce? Or maybe you want to get that TNN out as quick as possible against Grixis Control, but have to wait until turn 3 at the earliest assuming you use no Dazes or Wastelands? Having an early Noble Hierarch helps immensely with these early game mana problems, and if people want to continue casting TNN's in a deck like this, I think they'll quickly realize that having extra mana dorks in the deck will go leaps and bounds towards making it happen.

    Finally, Noble Hierarch is a perfect fit for the 'protect the queen' game plan that RUG Delver excels at. Exalted can shorten a 3-power beater's 7-turn clock down to 5 turns, and it also has the added benefit of giving our Goyfs and Mandrils enough power and toughness to tango with the Angler. Given that Diabolic Edict is a huge player in the current meta game, Noble Hierarch also has the added benefit of providing an expendable 0/1 on board that'll help insulate you against these types of sacrifice effects.

    I'm a firm believer in not bringing weird ideas to public forums without trying them first, so I took this 75 to my last two legacy weeklies before posting here. Though it's still a small sample size I managed to go 4-0 in matches in both of these tournaments (total 8-0), including two wins over Grixis Control. The Hierarchs felt great in every matchup, and it felt like a card I always wanted to see in my opening hand.

    Edit: It's come to my attention that the guys on the 'Dead Format' podcast have already spent some time with Noble RUG. Though I disagree with a couple of their deck choices (4 TNN, 1 Young Pyromancer), I think it'd be really cool to hear their thoughts on the optimal way to build the deck.

  4. #2724
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Has anyone tried Hidden Gibbons? Iíve always thought the card was kinda cool. Probably not great haha

  5. #2725
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Iím guessing someone has
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I still have a strong suspicion that if 'Thalia, Heretic Cathar' had been named 'Frank, Heretic Cathar', people would be a lot more skeptical of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goin Aggro View Post
    Ugh, there he goes again, talking about the girlfriend. We get it dude.

  6. #2726

    [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesture View Post
    Hey all, new-ish to RUG and wanted to get everyone's thoughts on some ideas. List for reference:

    Main Deck:
    3 Noble Hierarch
    4 Delver of Secrets
    2 Tarmogoyf
    2 Hooting Mandrils
    2 True-Name Nemesis

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    4 Daze
    4 Stifle
    2 Spell Pierce
    4 Lightning Bolt
    1 Dismember
    1 Dead//Gone

    4 Ponder

    8 Fetches
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island
    4 Wasteland

    1 Winter Orb

    Sideboard:
    2 Winter Orb
    1 Ancient Grudge
    2 Abrade
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Spell Snare
    1 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Izzet Staticaster
    2 Pyroblast

    Notable changes are 3 copies of Noble Hierarch and no copies of Nimble Mongoose. More on this later.

    There's a question facing every URx Delver player regarding the role of Black vs. Green. The last few years have peppered us with a smattering of strong black cards while yielding very few cards for the green slice of the color pie. As a result, green's role of overstatted and undercosted beaters has been largely supplanted by other colors. So what's the incentive to play green?

    Enter Noble Hierarch. Ever since the banning of DRS green has taken its mantle back as the best color for cheating on mana, and I feel this is an axis which RUG can abuse to stay competitive with its Grixis Delver counterpart.

    Noble Hierarch is incredible in the deck for a variety of reasons. First, it does an excellent job at smoothing out our mana in the early turns. Picture an opening hand with Mongoose, Daze, Wasteland, Stifle, and fetch land. It's pretty common given that the deck maxes out on all of these in order to leverage the mana denial plan. You lead with fetchland into Mongoose, Daze their first play, then untap and use the Wasteland on their lone dual. So what's the Stifle doing now? There's an awkward tension between all of the pieces of early game mana denial, and without a mana dork I don't think the deck is suited to take advantage of all of its tools. Swap out the Mongoose in the above scenario with a Hierarch and all of a sudden you can also hold up the Stifle for the fetchland that your opponent plays on turn 2. This is just one of the many scenarios in which leading with a Hierarch might be beneficial over a Mongoose.

    Second, Noble Hierarch lets us play bigger threats to help us stay relevant on board. It's no secret that Nimble Mongoose gets pretty quickly outclassed on board in today's legacy meta game, but bigger threats come with their own slew of problems in such a mana-light deck. What if you want to deploy a Tarmogoyf on t2, but also want to leave up mana for Spell Pierce? Or maybe you want to get that TNN out as quick as possible against Grixis Control, but have to wait until turn 3 at the earliest assuming you use no Dazes or Wastelands? Having an early Noble Hierarch helps immensely with these early game mana problems, and if people want to continue casting TNN's in a deck like this, I think they'll quickly realize that having extra mana dorks in the deck will go leaps and bounds towards making it happen.

    Finally, Noble Hierarch is a perfect fit for the 'protect the queen' game plan that RUG Delver excels at. Exalted can shorten a 3-power beater's 7-turn clock down to 5 turns, and it also has the added benefit of giving our Goyfs and Mandrils enough power and toughness to tango with the Angler. Given that Diabolic Edict is a huge player in the current meta game, Noble Hierarch also has the added benefit of providing an expendable 0/1 on board that'll help insulate you against these types of sacrifice effects.

    I'm a firm believer in not bringing weird ideas to public forums without trying them first, so I took this 75 to my last two legacy weeklies before posting here. Though it's still a small sample size I managed to go 4-0 in matches in both of these tournaments (total 8-0), including two wins over Grixis Control. The Hierarchs felt great in every matchup, and it felt like a card I always wanted to see in my opening hand.

    Edit: It's come to my attention that the guys on the 'Dead Format' podcast have already spent some time with Noble RUG. Though I disagree with a couple of their deck choices (4 TNN, 1 Young Pyromancer), I think it'd be really cool to hear their thoughts on the optimal way to build the deck.
    Iíve been testing this deck and i really liked the mana dork for all reasons you mentioned. I dont think a playset TNN is wrong though. Its great against control, other fair decks and if you can resolve it in delver-mirrors. I like hooting as complementary threat but i dont think is great anymore.

    Edit: a huge reason to play this is that its the best Winter Orb deck out there.

  7. #2727
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by JackaBo View Post
    Iíve been testing this deck and i really liked the mana dork for all reasons you mentioned. I dont think a playset TNN is wrong though. Its great against control, other fair decks and if you can resolve it in delver-mirrors. I like hooting as complementary threat but i dont think is great anymore.

    Edit: a huge reason to play this is that its the best Winter Orb deck out there.
    Glad it's been working out for you. Regarding TNN, I've found the card to really only be exceptional against control decks and non-blue fair decks. True-Name's obviously subpar against combo, and against Delver decks I've found 3 mana to be quite a lot to invest, even with the additional mana from Hierarch. No doubt that slamming him on t2 with Daze back-up is strong, but in tempo mirrors I find myself really hesitant to tap out unless it's really early or really late in the game. Could just be a playstyle preference thing though, I'll keep an eye on it.

    On the topic of Mandrils, I originally had the two copies as a way to diversify the threat base against different removal spells but I could see an argument for cutting them entirely for something else.

    Mind sharing what your threat base looks like? I've also been trying to find room for a 4th Hierarch, but the list feels pretty tight as it is.

  8. #2728

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Oh sorry the word Goyf unintentionally disappeared. I like Mandrill as complementary threat but dont think Goyf is good anymore.
    My threats were 4 delver, 4 tnn, 4 noble, 2 mandrils.

  9. #2729
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by JackaBo View Post
    Oh sorry the word Goyf unintentionally disappeared. I like Mandrill as complementary threat but dont think Goyf is good anymore.
    My threats were 4 delver, 4 tnn, 4 noble, 2 mandrils.
    Thanks for sharing. The Tarmogoyfs were all-stars in another event I played last night, but I've noticed that Grixis Control is on the downswing locally which may have been a big factor in that. If the premiere Fatal Push deck starts picking up steam here again I'll give your threat suite a shot because I do really like the idea of t2 TNN's with Daze back-up, and they're obviously much better than vanilla */*+1's against the current best decks in the format.

    Edit: Quick tournament summary from last night

    R1 vs. James S. on BUG Control 2-0

    Game one is a quick affair that kicks off with James mulliganing to 4 and ends shortly afterwards.

    Game two is a bit of a grind and ends with me top decking a TNN after James had stabilized at 1. Carpet of Flowers and Back to Basics did a ton of work for James here, though I did manage to clear the latter off the board with a resolved Pyroblast. I'm wondering if there are any viable enchantment removal options for the sideboard. It seems to be a popular angle to attack Grixis Control on and there's definitely some overlap that hurts us, but I've never found Destructive Revelry to be particularly exciting.

    R2 vs. Sean M. on Burn 2-1

    Don't remember much from these games, but they were incredibly close with the winner of each game ending at less than 5 life in all 3. Tarmogoyf did some good work in coming down early and blocking Guides/Swiftspears. TNN's a bit of a clunker when you don't have Hierarch and are trying to avoid having too many lands in play.

    R3 vs. Trevor L. on RUG Delver 2-0

    These games were much closer than the 2-0 score indicates, as Trevor's one of the best RUG Delver pilots in the area and really gave me a run for my money. I feel incredibly favored against the traditional RUG Delver lists because we're swapping out one of the weakest cards in the match-up (Nimble Mongoose) for a card that makes it incredibly difficult for the opponent to execute their main game plan of choking us off of mana. There's also some odd interactions, like Hooting Mandrils shrinking opposing Goyfs and exalted triggers letting us attack through opposing Goyfs, that I'd never come across before. At the end of the day, I think this mirror really highlights the shortcomings of Mongoose while also showcasing the power of Noble Hierarch better than any other match-up does.

    R4 vs. Nick P. on Mono Red Sneak Attack 2-1

    One of the other cool things about Hierarch is that it gives us game through a resolved Blood Moon. These games were pretty normal, with 1 and 3 going my way off of a resolved Delver + Wasteland + Soft Permission and game 2 ending on T2 with a Seething Song -> Griselbrand -> Petal -> Emrakul. Sometimes you get 'em and sometimes you get got. #shrugDelver

  10. #2730
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I've been inspired by the Noble lists I saw here and seeked to make one of my own. I cooked something up based on a few basic principles and was pleasantly suprised with the results.

    I tested a 4 Noble/4 Delver/4 Pyro/2 TNN/2 Mandrills with 16 lands (2 islands), no wastelands and Moons in the SB. The idea was to use the standard RUG tempo shell and pair up the most efficient and synergetic threats with Noble. Pyro being the best threat to abuse fast mana, TNN being the ideal t2 and Exalted threat, and Mandrills taking advantage of Exalted via Trample. Here are some of my findings:

    I don't want to play 4 Nobles again. As good as the card is on turn 1-2, it is terrible in multiples or late in a game. You want enough copies to see one a game but avoid two copies as much as you can.

    Pyromancer is the life blood of this deck. It reminds me how Grixis used to abuse YP minus the Therapy/Probe combo.

    Wastelands are better than Blood Moon for a Daze/Pierce shell. This may come to no surprise to most of you but this deck is not aggressive enough to play tax counters without Wastelands.

    Islands definitely have a place in a Delver shell. Probably no more than 1 basic is necessary when paired with Noble to combat Moon/Wastes.

    Here's what I've got after a brief testing session:

    Creatures (15)
    3 Noble Hierarch
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Young Pyromancer
    2 True-Name Nemesis
    2 Hooting Mandrills

    Spells (26)
    4 Lightning Bolt
    1 Abrade
    1 Dismember

    2 Spell Pierce
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    2 Preordain

    Lands (19)
    4 Wasteland
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Misty Rainforest
    3 Volcanic Island
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Taiga
    1 Island

    Sideboard
    1 Grim Lavamancer
    1 True-Name Nemesis
    3 Surgical Extraction
    3 Pyroblast
    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Dead // Gone
    1 Abrade
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Grafdigger's Cage


    Notable inclusions include a Dismember/Abrade split given their similar function and our 10 cantrips.

    Happy Holliday!
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  11. #2731
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post

    Wastelands are better than Blood Moon for a Daze/Pierce shell. This may come to no surprise to most of you but this deck is not aggressive enough to play tax counters without Wastelands.

    When I tried Noble Hierarch, I also concluded a 16 land build without Wasteland might be the way to go since drawing Noble Hierarch is basically the same as drawing a land. However, Winter Orb would definitely be the card to play over Blood Moon in a build like this. The trouble is that Winter Orb is much worse than Wasteland and Blood Moon against BG Depths, which is definitely a player in the online metagame. 22 mana sources (19 lands/3 Noble Hierarch) seemed too many mana sources to me, but I was running Tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf is clearly the superior tempo card and running Young Pyromancer makes us very vulnerable to -1/-1 effects when paired with Noble Hierach and True-Name Nemesis. Maybe the superiority of Young Pyromancer against 1 for 1 removal makes it worth while though.
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  12. #2732
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by BKclassic View Post
    When I tried Noble Hierarch, I also concluded a 16 land build without Wasteland might be the way to go since drawing Noble Hierarch is basically the same as drawing a land. However, Winter Orb would definitely be the card to play over Blood Moon in a build like this. The trouble is that Winter Orb is much worse than Wasteland and Blood Moon against BG Depths, which is definitely a player in the online metagame. 22 mana sources (19 lands/3 Noble Hierarch) seemed too many mana sources to me, but I was running Tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf is clearly the superior tempo card and running Young Pyromancer makes us very vulnerable to -1/-1 effects when paired with Noble Hierach and True-Name Nemesis. Maybe the superiority of Young Pyromancer against 1 for 1 removal makes it worth while though.
    Yes there are 19 Lands and 3 dorks but it's really 15 colored lands and 3 dorks. This is comparable to the old Grixis with DRS and the whole Pyro/Delver/Gurmag/TNN suite. The Wastelands take up "land slots" but do not contribute to the mana development when used effectively. 16 colored lands and 4 dorks was a bit much I will admit so I think my current configuration is quite reasonable.

    I also thought about Deluge/Casualties but then I looked up the various Grixis lists and those are 1-2of SB cards. I side out Nobles against Grixis Ctrl and Miracles anyway and you rarely need to extend several quality threats on a board if you are playing the matchup properly. I will often pair up a delver or Mandrill with a TNN or Pyro but I will rarely have to pair up several Pyro or TNN or any combination of both because eithet of those threats on board is a plan all on its own that you only replace once it's been dealt with. From my experience, vulnerability to -1/-1 effects in this deck is a non-issue unlike a deck like Bant.
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    Get it...? Ass, u, me?

    ... ffs I was trying to be funny...

  13. #2733

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Me and Sean Brown (ChemicalBurns) played in the Beijing Orlov Legacy tournament 1 week ago.
    8 rounds of swiss on day 1, I lost the last round going 5-3 with the Tarmogoyf version and Sean went 6-2 into top 16 playing a Mandrills version.

    2-1 BG Depths (I should have lost but my opponent made a big misplay g2)
    0-2 Elves (Julian)
    2-0 Sneak and Show
    2-1 Grixis Delver
    0-2 Depths Reanimator
    2-1 UW Delver
    2-1 Eldrazi Stompy
    1-2 UW Stoneblade

    Losing the last round was very annoying, I think it's a favourable matchup but in G3 I didn't find a second land until like turn 6

    In the side event on day 2 I went 1-2 and Sean went 2-1, my win and his loss was the mirror match where we played each other

    List
    4 Goyf Goose Delver
    4 FoW Daze Stifle Bolt Brainstorm Ponder
    2 Snare Pierce SealOfFire
    4 Wasteland
    6 Dual
    8 Fetch

    SB
    2 TNN Grudge Orb Surgical Pyroblast
    1 REB Library Cage Honden Lavamancer

    The only change I would probably make is -1 Seal +1 Tarfire
    I think the deck is still probably a fine choice if you know how to play it well, but a huge factor in my decision to play it was card availability + lack of time to test other decks.
    If I had the ability to play all the decks in legacy at like 95+% proficiency I think I would be surprised if I still thought RUG was the best choice for any tournament, but it's not a huge punt like I thought it was 1-2 months ago.

  14. #2734
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Hey all, here's another tournament recap from last night's 4 rounder. List for reference:

    Main Deck:
    3 Noble Hierarch
    4 Delver of Secrets
    2 Tarmogoyf
    2 Hooting Mandrils
    2 True-Name Nemesis

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    4 Daze
    4 Stifle
    2 Spell Pierce
    4 Lightning Bolt
    1 Dismember
    1 Forked Bolt

    3 Ponder
    1 Preordain

    8 Fetches
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island
    4 Wasteland

    1 Winter Orb

    Sideboard:
    2 Winter Orb
    1 Ancient Grudge
    2 Abrade
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Spell Snare
    1 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Izzet Staticaster
    2 Pyroblast

    List is mostly the same, I've recently gone -1 Ponder and -1 Dead//Gone for +1 Preordain and +1 Forked Bolt.

    R1 vs. Nick P. on Eldrazi MUD 2-1

    Game 1 is a pretty brutal affair, with multiple uncounterable Thought-Knot Seers hitting the board turn after turn and stripping my hand of relevant cards.

    Sideboard: -4 Stifle, -2 Spell Pierce, +2 Abrade, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 True-Name Nemesis, +2 Winter Orb

    Game 2 starts with me landing an early Hierarch and continuing to disrupt Nick's mana base with Wastelands while deploying a Tarmogoyf. The 5/6 is bigger than anything else he resolves all game and I cast a True-Name near the end for good measure.

    Sideboard: Same as G1

    Game 3 starts off slowly with Nick playing no Sol lands, but exiling my T1 Delver with a Warping Wail. I resolve a 2/3 Goyf, and Nick plays a third land to cast Trinisphere, which I'm forced to let resolve. I untap, rip a Winter Orb off the top, then play a third land to cast said Winter Orb slow down my opponent's mana. A few turns later I resolve a True-Name and a few turns after that the game is over.

    R2 vs. Kevin L. on BUG Nic Fit (2-1)

    Whoo boy, this is a tough matchup.

    Game 1 starts off going pretty poorly for me. Kevin pulls the ol' Nic Fit and strips a FoW + Bolt from my hand using Cabal Therapy and Veteran Explorer synergy. Things are looking pretty tough, but I find my singleton main deck Winter Orb and manage to stick it for long enough to prevent him from capitalizing on his land advantage. True-Name gets there a couple of turns later.

    Sideboard: -2 Tarmogoyf, -1 Stifle, -1 Spell Pierce, +1 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 True-Name Nemesis, +2 Winter Orb

    Game 2 starts off with Kevin leading on a Veteran Explorer, followed by me casting a T1 Grafdigger's Cage in the hopes of shutting off Cabal Therapy. Unfortunately he starts T2 by playing a Phyrexian Tower and sacrificing his Veteran Explorer to give himself access to 5 mana for the turn, casting a Leovold then passing. The details are a bit hazy on this one, but I remember getting a Winter Orb destroyed and an amusing situation towards the end where I stabilized at 1 life and my True-Name was facing down a Dryad Arbor that I couldn't afford to leave unblocked. I cast a Ponder, keep 3 Delvers on top, then draw one and throw the game by casting Delver and swinging with True-Name. Kevin uses an Assassin's Trophy at end of turn to destroy my Delver, and the Dryad Arbor ends up crossing the finish line.

    Sideboard: -2 Tarmogoyf, -2 Spell Pierce, +1 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 True-Name Nemesis, +2 Winter Orb

    Game 3's also a bit hazy but it revolved very heavily around a Winter Orb that I managed to protect throughout the entirety of the game. The final turn had us both at 1 life, and Kevin is forced to triple block an exalted Hooting Mandrils with Leovold, Veteran Explorer, and Eternal Witness in order to stay alive. We go to time, I rip the True-Name, and seal the game from there.

    If I wasn't sure before this match, I'm definitely now certain that Winter Orb is not only at an acceptable power level for legacy, but also a complete powerhouse that's just been missing a proper home for the longest time. Locking down 10+ lands, 9 of which are basics, is something that none of the currently played land hate in legacy could ever do.

    R3 vs. Tri N. on Grixis Control (2-1)

    Game 1 starts out in typical RUG Delver fashion, with me trading Stifles for fetch lands and Tri trading 1 mana removal for Delvers and Tarmogoyfs. After this exchange of resources, I manage to resolve a Hooting Mandrils and begin clocking in for 4 a turn. Tri resolves a Snapcaster into a cantrip, and I swing him down to 3 life before casting a second Mandrils and passing the turn. He draws, casts a Brainstorm with one other card in hand, and resolves a Gurmag Angler followed by a Diabolic Edict to get rid of one of my two Mandrils. I'm feeling embarrassed for my monkey that's just been brickwalled by a zombie fish when I top deck the lethal bolt and begin sideboarding.

    Sideboard: -2 Tarmogoyf, -2 Stifle, -1 Spell Pierce, -1 card (Lightning Bolt?), +2 Pyroblast, +1 Spell Snare, +1 True-Name Nemesis, +2 Winter Orb

    Game 2 starts off in pretty typical Grixis Control fashion with all of my creatures getting killed and my Winter Orb getting countered. At one point Tri resolves a Gurmag Angler, leaving Baleful Strix in the graveyard. Given that he saw Tarmogoyf game 1 this is a clue that he has the Kolaghan's Command in hand, so I opt to sandbag a Delver as Force of Will fodder rather than run it out and let him get the 2 for 1. I dismember the Angler, and Tri casts a Hymn to Tourach which prompts a Force pitching Delver. Next turn he Snapcasters Hymn back, and I empty the last two cards in hand (both Bolts) at his face, taking him to 2. This ends up being a mistake though, as his Snapcaster begins clocking in for 2 a turn and I never get back into the game before he finishes me off with Snapcaster beats and Bolt into K-Command.

    Sideboard: Don't have notes, but it was similar to G1 sideboarding

    I'm missing notes for Game 3 but it was won off of the back of True-Name Nemesis and mana denial.

    R4 vs. Anthony W. on something (I.D.)

    We agree to a prize split and draw into 1st + 2nd place. I go home to eat ramen and shiu mai for dinner.



    Thoughts about some specific cards, listed in alphabetical order:

    Forked Bolt - This is here because I had a pretty brutal loss to Elves a couple of weeks back. I'm not sure if it's better than Dead//Gone, but I feel its doing a lot against the decks its good against (Elves, DnT) which are incidentally unfavorable matchups for us.

    Preordain - So I've been really on the fence about playing the 1st Preordain over the 4th Ponder (if you know me in real life, there's a good chance we've talked about this.) What it comes down to is Ponder seems better when you're looking for a specific card (like in a combo decks) or when you pair it with a shuffle effect to keep the card you want and get rid of the other two. This is a deck that operates on a very low land count, and as such, often doesn't want to run out extra lands solely for the purposes of shuffling with Ponder. Additionally, RUG Delver runs a high number of cards that quickly lose value as the game goes on (Daze, Wasteland, Stifle), so it's not unusual to cast a Ponder and see two bad cards and a single good card, only to be forced to shuffle. I'll concede that Ponder is better in the early turns of the game and also digs one card deeper while you're looking for that Bolt to close things out, but I think it's advantages over Preordain are small enough to the point that it's worth testing some number of Preordain in order to help smooth out draws.

    Noble Hierarch - Winter Orb's best friend. Not much to say here, I'm almost certain 3 is the correct number in this build of the deck.

    Tarmogoyf - There's been a lot of talk about cutting this guy for something else. While I agree that it's not quite the power house it used to be, Tarmogoyf goes really far in just being a large body that can block things like Thought-Knot, Batterskull, or even other Tarmogoyfs. 2 seems to be a good number so far, and I'm hesitant to raise that or the Mandrils count higher as they start to nonbo with each other if there are too many.

    True-Name Nemesis - I'm currently on 2 main/1 side copies of this card, and some people run even more. As strong as this card is I do feel that running 3 drops in RUG is still fundamentally greedy and that running too many copies begins to put the deck in danger of not having enough lands to properly execute its game plan. Additionally, with the 4 Stifles I rarely want to tap out with this deck and it's incredibly rare to have the 4 mana to cast this guy and leave up one blue to counter fetch lands. There's definitely an argument to trim or even completely take out all the Stifles, but as long as I'm playing the full set I think this is the correct number of True-Names.

    Winter Orb - This. Card. Is. A. House. With the entire legacy meta game moving towards basics in an attempt to play around land hate, Winter Orb is a card that can still heavily tax an opponent's resources without disrupting our own game plan significantly. Midrange and control decks that traditionally give Delver decks trouble suddenly become favored matchups if you manage to resolve and protect a Winter Orb. I cannot speak highly enough of this card, and the inclusion of Noble Hierarchs only goes to let us leverage its power even further.



    In the interest of completeness, I've played about 10 weekly events with this deck now. Of those, I've cashed 9 of them with 6 'X-0/X-0-1' records and 3 'X-1' records. My non-cashed event ended 2-2, with losses to Merfolk and Elves. Curious to hear your thoughts on the deck, or if you've personally had any experiences with it that you'd like to share.

    Thanks for reading!

  15. #2735
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Here is where I'm at:

    4 Wasteland
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island

    4 Delver of Secrets
    3 Noble Hierarch
    4 Tarmogoyf
    3 True-Name Nemesis

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder

    4 Lightning Bolt
    2 Tarfire

    3 Spell Pierce
    3 Stifle
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will

    Sideboard:
    3 Abrade
    3 Pyroblast
    2 Spell Snare
    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Sylvan Library
    4 Tormod's Crypt

    -I tried Young Pyromancer and it was good. But the problem is that Noble Hiearch doesn't produce red mana, so I'm on Tarmogoyf.
    -Winter Orb is definitely an interesting card, but I'm passing on it for now. True-Name Nemesis is getting the job done against control match ups and I think True-Name Nemesis has more upside in other situations, like Delver mirrors and Death and Taxes.
    -I'm prepared to just have a middling at best match-up against Elves for now. I'm more worried about beating Storm and Reanimator. I do thinks Elves stock in the meta is rising though.
    -Tormod's Crypt is definitely where I want to be with regard to graveyard hate.
    -I do think about running a 4th Hierarch sometimes. It sure is a good card to have in your opening and they do form some kind of threat in multiples. Powering out True-Names definitely wins games.
    Team MAINEdeck

  16. #2736

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by BKclassic View Post
    -Tormod's Crypt is definitely where I want to be with regard to graveyard hate.
    Hi, I am curious to understand more your choice of tormodís crypt here over more traditional surgical, cage, etc.

    Can you please elaborate?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  17. #2737
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by ptahetep View Post
    Hi, I am curious to understand more your choice of tormodís crypt here over more traditional surgical, cage, etc.

    Can you please elaborate?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Compared to the other options:
    -Surgical Extraction is just too flimsy. Everyone expects Surgical Extraction and has some kind of gameplan against it. Surgical Extraction typically doesn't get it done against Manaless Dredge and LED Dredge.
    -Grafdigger's Cage used to be my go to. Unfortunately, while Grafdigger's Cage is very good against both forms of Dredge and I love having these to board in against Elves, it is too slow against BR Reanimator and BR Reanimator is the baseline of the metageme.
    -Leyline of the Void is an interesting option but ulitimately too clunky.
    -With Deathrite Shaman out of the metagame we definitely need a potent sideboard strategy against graveyard decks. Tormod's Crypt doesn't beat the Turn-1-on-the-play nut draw from BR Reanimator but is very good in every other scenario against BR Reanimator, Manaless Dredge and LED Dredge. It's also a reasonable card to board in against ANT and Lands.
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  18. #2738
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    @BKClassic,

    I really like your list and agree with most of your points.

    Why Snares in the SB? They seem kinda narrow of you consider Pyroblast fills a similar role postboard.

    What do you guys think of the new Cinder Vines as a SB card? It's a bit slower than Abrade but can destroy enchantments and can be played proactively against storm and miracles. It also puts an enchantment in the gy.

    I always question Stifle in these decks and often compare it to other cards that I find better in more situations such as Spell Snare, Preordain, another Land or Threat. My experience with Stifle has always been very polarized as I either get a good Stifle in and feel satisfied or I just flood out on useless Stifles and lose... I feel like I only want Stifle when I'm on the play and to me 50% relevance for a card is not good enough. Now that some of us play Noble, is Stifle better or just the same?

    Side note: SB Grim Lavamancer is too good to pass up without Mongoose!
    Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
    Get it...? Ass, u, me?

    ... ffs I was trying to be funny...

  19. #2739
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Regarding counterspell selection, I've been running the 3 Spell Pierce 3 Stifle split maindeck with 2 Spell Snare and 3 Pyroblast in the sideboard for years now.
    -Stifle isn't the best on the draw or in multiples and there a lot of board states it doesn't interact with, so I don't think it is very good as a four-of. Certainly with the presence of Chalice of the Void in the metagame I do not think running more Stifles than Spell Pierces makes sense. Also, opponents will often walk into a Spell Pierce on their cantrip where they wouldn't walk into a Stifle on their fetchland Stifled. As for the idea of cutting Stifle entirely, well Stifle is a broad counterspell with many applications. I'm not sure of any other card that could be as effective against Death and Taxes/Maverick, Combo and Control decks. Spell Snare would probably be the next best option.
    -Spell Snare is more limited in it's application than Stifle and does little against Show and Tell but is pretty amazing when it's good. The sideboard is a logical place for it where it has broad application gainst Storm, Grixis Control, Miracles, Reanimator, Chalice of the Void, Death and Taxes, Maverick and Elves. Blue control decks just have so many cards that we need to counter, Counterbalance, Baleful Strix, Snapcaster Mage, True-Name Nemesis, Back to Basics and Jace the Mindsculptor in addition to cantrips, that I do not feel that 2 Spell Snare is excessive in addition to 3 Pyroblast.
    -I think that Spell Pierce and Pyroblast are sacred cows but not necessarily Stifle and Spell Snare. There might be a better configuration of countermagic but I'm not sure what it would be.

    I think that Cindervines is an interesting card. A permanent based hate card would be very nice to have against Storm. If we tap out for this on Turn 2, this card doesn't single handedly stop our Storm opponent from going off on their turn. However, it could lock down a game down after surviving the first couple turns. It is a pretty slow answer to Aether Vial and Abrade sets a pretty high bar for artifact removal. I probably will not run this card but it seems like a reasonable option.
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  20. #2740
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by BKclassic View Post
    I think that Cindervines is an interesting card. A permanent based hate card would be very nice to have against Storm. If we tap out for this on Turn 2, this card doesn't single handedly stop our Storm opponent from going off on their turn. However, it could lock down a game down after surviving the first couple turns. It is a pretty slow answer to Aether Vial and Abrade sets a pretty high bar for artifact removal. I probably will not run this card but it seems like a reasonable option.
    So Cindervines is actually anti-Counterbalance above everything else. You play it, and you not only get closer to winning (deals passive damage), but you also invalidate not on-board [yet] Counterbalance. Cindervines is also far more maindeckable than Abrade isn't b/c no decks play without noncreature spells, artifacts, and enchantments; also Goyf counts this card.

    RUG isn't ever really coming back to its glory days, but unlike pretty much anyone else in the format this deck can stop at throwing away only 4 slots of sideboard to have a reasonable shot vs both Hymn and CB (for Grixis you'd just use some hot garbage they can't even begin to interact with, like Compost). Enjoy it, no other deck can play legacy with 11 intact sideboard slots (for the rest of the format) and have such clean proactive answers to those two blights on the format.

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