[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

[LewisCBR]

Just played the Legacy Challenge, still on the same 75 from my sideboarding guide.

Tough luck getting 9th place, your list continues to impress! I was railing FriendRudy's stream for most of the tournament, who lost in the top 8. I didnt want to play in the Challenge because i wanted to watch baseball (Nationals/Dodgers game), but then that game ended up getting rained out. Most savage beat i've taken in a while. :P

[LewisCBR]

Spiked another 5-0 in a League about an hour ago with this very traditional list: https://deckstats.net/decks/56084/451448-rug-delver

I decided to go back and try no Probes, adding another Pierce and a Dismember, in the main. I've only had time to do 3 Leagues in the last couple weeks and have gone 4-1, 3-2, and now 5-0 with this list, respectively, so suffice it to say its been running hot. While i liked the Probe list, maybe it doesnt really matter all that much what the 6 flex spots are, as long as you are running some kind of extra removal and countermagic.

I beat Sneak and Show, Merfolk, Grixis Delver, Elves, and Mono Blue Omnitell in the last League, which are all pretty decent matchups for RUG. Although, the Sneak and Omnitell matches can be dicey. I feel like i always need a quick threat and double Force backup to even have a chance. Twice, the Omnitell guy fought through the counters and resolved a Show and Tell for Omniscience, but didnt have Emrakul or Wish to finish me off.

I really like this configuration vs Grixis Delver, as long as you can keep DRS off the table. A hand of double Wasteland and Stifle looks terrible when they suddenly plop down a turn 1 DRS if you cant answer it. Luckily, i was able to. Dismember did come in clutch to kill an Angler, which is what it is there to do, so maybe i need to change my opinion on the card. Previously, i never really liked it because 4 damage is pretty huge in the Delver mirror. However, i guess its rare for the matchup to come down to a race, usually one person or the other has solid control of the game.

Elves feels very easy with this 75. Post board, i have 9 pieces of removal, with 2 of those being a one sided Wrath. This match feels great to be able to fire off kill spells and countermagic knowing they will have zero response to anything you do. I like running 2 Roughs in the side almost exclusively for jank tribal decks like this. Elves, Merfolk (below), Goblines, Slivers, and even D&T feel extremely manageable when you have 2 sweepers and are frequently huge blowouts. I basically dont ever want to lose to these decks.

I didnt even think Merfolk, as a deck, still existed in Legacy, it had been so long since i've seen it. He was able to Chalice me and resolve a True Name in game 1, but games 2 and 3 i jumped all over him when he stumbled on mana a bit. Wasteland is still a thing when they keep a hand of one Island, Mutavaults, and Caverns.

I was getting discouraged with this deck recently and even jammed some matches in the 2 man queue online with Grixis and 4 Color Delver lists to see if i wanted to finally make the full switch out of RUG. While those decks are obviously powerful and put up consistent results, i dont like the midrangey playstyle all that much and i find myself back on RUG. Its so odd to me how clunky Grixis can play out, yet still win. When running at its best, RUG feels so fluid, like your inside the best part of a song, your cards are the notes and you are the maestro, doing crazy powerful things with 0 and 1 CMC spells. The deck is simply genius and i dont think there is anything else like it in Legacy.

[GoatLust]

Recently bought into legacy and decided to make RUG Delver. Really enjoy it so far. I essentially copied LewisCBR's, so thanks man, much appreciated. I've done 2 leagues with it. Finishing 3-2 and 4-1. I lost to Dredge (Bridge from Below), SnT, and Shardless Sultai. Any RUG Delver vets have pointers on these match-ups?

Thanks!

[kombatkiwi]

Mini tournament report - GP Kuala Lumpur Sunday Side Event

My intention was to try Jonathan Alexander’s exact list, but the vendors didn’t have any Submerge available. My friend who played in a legacy event on the Friday said that Reanimator was very popular so I added an additional Surgical Extraction instead.

Maindeck
54 RUG Delver Core
-2 Tarmogoyf
-1 Tropical Island (Budget Constraints)
1 Breeding Pool (I considered making this a Botanical Sanctum but I think not casting Daze is worse than the life loss, it turned out to be the correct decision at least for this event)
1 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
1 Winter Orb
2 Dismember
1 Spell Pierce

Side
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyroblast
2 Winter Orb
1 Seal of Fire
1 Spell Pierce
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Submerge
1 Tarmogoyf

I considered playing Scavenging Ooze over the SB Tarmogoyf but decided not to after my friend pointed out that playing Seal of Fire for only 2 Tarmogoyf in the 75 looks pretty awful.

Matches
4-Colour Deathrite/Delver/Strix/Copter 2-1
Reanimator 1-2
Mono-R Stompy/Sneak Attack 2-0
Elves 2-1
Eldrazi ID (Played for fun, I win the match if I don’t punt but I do so I lose)

Notes on card choices
2 Tarmogoyf, 3 Snare, 1 Spell Pierce,1 Counterspell, 2 Dismember seems like a great configuration to me at this point in time. I have only moved to Dismember relatively recently but I think you need at least 6 maindeck spells that act as removal, and as long as Angler and Eldrazi are a thing then the ability to -5 is so much more important than the 3 face damage from a Chain Lightning or whatever.

Main deck winter orb I am not sure about. It did win me game 1 against the Eldrazi player by keeping him off of Reality Smasher for 1 critical turn but in the postboard game where I drew it he had Eye and 2-mana lands so it didn’t do anything. I also boarded it out in every other match.

It might just be the case that in some metagames (MODO Included?) the amount of Miracles is high enough that you can justify playing 1 Orb main and 2 side. Miracles is so uncommon in my IRL tournaments, and in the other matchups where you are ‘supposed’ to bring Orb in it seems so underwhelming (DNT, Eldrazi, not sure about lands). I think the maindeck Orb could be a different card (I want to say Probe but not sure about the life loss with 2 Dismembers) and one or both of the ones in the board could easily be a Pithing Needle or Null Rod or Sulfuric Vortex depending on whether you think you need more coverage against Lands, Miracles, DNT, Sneak Attack, etc.

I have had the same idea about using Seal of Fire myself in the past but hadn’t actually tried it in an event before (Had to buy a foil Dissension one from the vendor lol). As a removal spell it was perfectly acceptable (ie. the fact that I could not cast it as an instant and it only deals 2 never was a drawback, but the fact that it could pump Goyf by being an enchantment never came up either). It almost decided the outcome of one game by being an enchantment on top of my library and not flipping Delver, so in this event it performed worse than Tarfire would have, but I am still convinced by the argument of Seal not being able to be eaten by DRS in the Angler matches. This is also a general reminder that Delver of Secrets does not flip for free all the time and having a card in your 75 be an instant or sorcery is a legitimate, if perhaps marginal benefit.

For posterity (I know this isn’t a real point of discussion at the moment but someone might bring it up again in the future or browse the thread wondering) I didn’t lose any games or have to play any weird lines because of my Breeding Pool but this has happened several times in the past. My round 1 opponent seemed to seriously respect my ‘decision’ to play around all my green sources being extracted but this is just a big meme, if you have 3 Tropicals you should play them.

I’m not too sure about the plan of boarding all your Delvers out against Grixis, but to me the idea seems reasonable. If you bring in 1 Goyf and 2 TNN then your threat density is roughly the same and you have the plan of your Goyf/TNN trumping everything they have while you are blanking 4 cards in their deck that they won’t board out. I agree that RUG is generally the ‘aggro’ deck but if there is a particular SB configuration that might enable the deck to successfully take the control role in a particular matchup I think it shouldn’t be dismissed by the ‘role argument’ alone.

I planned to attend GP Chiba but I missed the registration window. Good luck to all who will be attending.
Please reply if you have any questions or comments :)

[Jesperaj]

Spiked another 5-0 in a League about an hour ago with this very traditional list: https://deckstats.net/decks/56084/451448-rug-delver

I decided to go back and try no Probes, adding another Pierce and a Dismember, in the main. I've only had time to do 3 Leagues in the last couple weeks and have gone 4-1, 3-2, and now 5-0 with this list, respectively, so suffice it to say its been running hot. While i liked the Probe list, maybe it doesnt really matter all that much what the 6 flex spots are, as long as you are running some kind of extra removal and countermagic.

I beat Sneak and Show, Merfolk, Grixis Delver, Elves, and Mono Blue Omnitell in the last League, which are all pretty decent matchups for RUG. Although, the Sneak and Omnitell matches can be dicey. I feel like i always need a quick threat and double Force backup to even have a chance. Twice, the Omnitell guy fought through the counters and resolved a Show and Tell for Omniscience, but didnt have Emrakul or Wish to finish me off.

I really like this configuration vs Grixis Delver, as long as you can keep DRS off the table. A hand of double Wasteland and Stifle looks terrible when they suddenly plop down a turn 1 DRS if you cant answer it. Luckily, i was able to. Dismember did come in clutch to kill an Angler, which is what it is there to do, so maybe i need to change my opinion on the card. Previously, i never really liked it because 4 damage is pretty huge in the Delver mirror. However, i guess its rare for the matchup to come down to a race, usually one person or the other has solid control of the game.

Elves feels very easy with this 75. Post board, i have 9 pieces of removal, with 2 of those being a one sided Wrath. This match feels great to be able to fire off kill spells and countermagic knowing they will have zero response to anything you do. I like running 2 Roughs in the side almost exclusively for jank tribal decks like this. Elves, Merfolk (below), Goblines, Slivers, and even D&T feel extremely manageable when you have 2 sweepers and are frequently huge blowouts. I basically dont ever want to lose to these decks.

I didnt even think Merfolk, as a deck, still existed in Legacy, it had been so long since i've seen it. He was able to Chalice me and resolve a True Name in game 1, but games 2 and 3 i jumped all over him when he stumbled on mana a bit. Wasteland is still a thing when they keep a hand of one Island, Mutavaults, and Caverns.

I was getting discouraged with this deck recently and even jammed some matches in the 2 man queue online with Grixis and 4 Color Delver lists to see if i wanted to finally make the full switch out of RUG. While those decks are obviously powerful and put up consistent results, i dont like the midrangey playstyle all that much and i find myself back on RUG. Its so odd to me how clunky Grixis can play out, yet still win. When running at its best, RUG feels so fluid, like your inside the best part of a song, your cards are the notes and you are the maestro, doing crazy powerful things with 0 and 1 CMC spells. The deck is simply genius and i dont think there is anything else like it in Legacy.

Hey Lewis.. Great to see you keeping the RUG spirit alive👍. I really like your 75 card configration. Can i ask you how your sideboarding is against:

Grixis delver
Miracles
Elves
Eldrazi
Storm

[LewisCBR]

Hey Lewis.. Great to see you keeping the RUG spirit alive👍. I really like your 75 card configration. Can i ask you how your sideboarding is against:

Grixis delver
Miracles
Elves
Eldrazi
Storm

I dont know if any of these are right, as i'm a big fan of shaving as opposed to out right taking out all of one spell a lot of the time, but this is how i do it.

Grixis delver - I like to take the role of aggressor here. Its impossible to answer everything, so you need to answer just enough to get there. Taking out Delvers seems insane to me, i dont know how you can plan to kill every DRS and opposing Delver with your limited removal. I feel like the best defense to Delver, sometimes, is to play your own Delver.

+2 Rough
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Seal of Fire
+1 True Name
+1 Flusterstorm
-3 Force (i like leaving one in as a safety net for when you need to counter that Angler, for example)
-2 Spell Snare (not enough good targets, Rough is supposed to help handle Pyromancer
-1 Daze (because youre bringing in better counter spells)
-1 Goose (feels like the weakest creature here and you are bringing in a TNN)


Miracles - I feel 50/50 against this deck lately, but i've had Miracles players tell me that they feel unfavored vs RUG.

+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Krosam Grip
+1 Null Rod
+1 Pithing Needle (this feels redundant and its annoying when you draw both this and Null Rod to stop Top, but thats what Brainstorm is for)
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Sulfuric Vortex (probably your best card)
+1 Sylvan Library (another nombo, like with Rod/Needle, you only want Library or Vortex, the two dont play nice together unless you find a Vortex off Library fast)
+1 True Name
-3 Wasteland (yep)
-1 Dismember
-1 Tarfire
-1 Bolt
-2 Daze (weakest counter spell here)
-1 Tarmgoyf (your weakest creature here, he dies to everything)


Elves - This is basically a combo deck, so i keep in Forces. They cant do too much with a bunch of elves, but when they get Glimpse going into Natural Order, you better watch out. I try to kill everything and poke away with our threats.

+1 Seal of Fire
+2 Rough
+1 Sylvan Library
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 Spell Snare (not too many targets, but its great to hit a Visionary or Zenith for 1, otherwise, pitch to Force)
-1 Daze
-1 Dismember


Eldrazi - Your best bet is to get two Delvers going fast, or a few big Goyfs out, while countering as much as you can. Using Wastelands to hit Cavern. This is one of those matchups where you dont have enough to bring in for all you want to bring out since Pierces and Stifles are pretty bad. Some people like Rough against Eldrazi, but i havent had it work out very well.

+1 Ancient Grudge
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 True Name
+1 Seal of Fire (for Goyf)
-3 Stifle
-1 Spell Pierce


Storm - just like we are the best Delver variant vs Miracles, i think we are the weakest Delver variant vs Storm. They can win through counter spells pretty easily and we dont have hand disruption, so this matchup is always tough. Choosing when to counter cantrips can be crucial.

+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Null Rod
+2 Pyroblast (be very liberal and hit an early cantrip whenever you are able)
+2 Surgical
+1 Library
-1 Dismeber
-1 Tarfire
-2 Bolt
-2 Goose (he is your worst threat, for sure)
-1 Wasteland

[Dio]

This is my current deck:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/02-08-16-rug-delver/

What should I cut for Grip of Phyresis?

[Jonathan Alexander]

To those of you who have toyed around with my list: I'm working on a matchup guide for Canadian vs. Miracles, do you have screenshots of any interesting scenarios I should cover? I'm looking mostly for cantrip decisions and countermagic sequencing here.

[comix84]

Hey guys, Canadian Player since 2013 here.. need some help regarding the DnT matchup.. it has always been my nemesi but now with also the new Thalia and the recruiter it seems even worse to me... I am pretty sure I am approaching the match in the wrong way so pretty open to any suggestion.
Usually playing a quite standard list, with the 6 slot currently: 2 Dismember, 2 pierce and 2 snare.
I change the side quite often based on what I expect in my local meta but I do usually have at least a mass removal (rough // tumble, sometimes x 2 or 1 plus another burn spell), couple of graveyard hate, classic 3/4 slot for combo, 1 null rod, 1 sulfuric vortex, 1/2 winter orb, 1 nemesis and 1 Sulfur elemental

How do you generally play against it? I mean, delver used to be the best here (ok TNN too) but now they can ever recruiter for the flickerwisp and we still only have 4 stifle! Really open to any advice!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Contract Killer]

Hey guys, Canadian Player since 2013 here.. need some help regarding the DnT matchup.. it has always been my nemesi but now with also the new Thalia and the recruiter it seems even worse to me... I am pretty sure I am approaching the match in the wrong way so pretty open to any suggestion.
Usually playing a quite standard list, with the 6 slot currently: 2 Dismember, 2 pierce and 2 snare.
I change the side quite often based on what I expect in my local meta but I do usually have at least a mass removal (rough // tumble, sometimes x 2 or 1 plus another burn spell), couple of graveyard hate, classic 3/4 slot for combo, 1 null rod, 1 sulfuric vortex, 1/2 winter orb, 1 nemesis and 1 Sulfur elemental

How do you generally play against it? I mean, delver used to be the best here (ok TNN too) but now they can ever recruiter for the flickerwisp and we still only have 4 stifle! Really open to any advice!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ceck out Jonathan Alexander's list and sideboard section on his blog the weekly wars. With how many stupid 3 drops they have I think it's really good.

[Contract Killer]

To those of you who have toyed around with my list: I'm working on a matchup guide for Canadian vs. Miracles, do you have screenshots of any interesting scenarios I should cover? I'm looking mostly for cantrip decisions and countermagic sequencing here.

The most common one I have come up is turn 2 orb + daze/force or turn 2 pass holding up pierce/pyro/snare/counterspell then turn 3 orb after hitting a counterbalance or something. This is also subject to change if they have top out orb is probably worth it. Part of this is because in my experience the ONLY ways you can actually lose postboard on this plan are mentor. This means the amount of counterspells you have that hit him (force/daze/counterspell) are of limited supply and you should try to manage them as best as you can in terms of what they can counter.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Canadian Threshold vs. Miracles Matchup Guide

Should be self-explanatory. Focusing on the #winnerorb list.

The most common one I have come up is turn 2 orb + daze/force or turn 2 pass holding up pierce/pyro/snare/counterspell then turn 3 orb after hitting a counterbalance or something. This is also subject to change if they have top out orb is probably worth it. Part of this is because in my experience the ONLY ways you can actually lose postboard on this plan are mentor. This means the amount of counterspells you have that hit him (force/daze/counterspell) are of limited supply and you should try to manage them as best as you can in terms of what they can counter.

Definitely holding up counters there unless opponent has mana tapped. I agree on the Mentor thing, it's the only card you really lose to because everything else just never resolves.

[Homason]

Iam toying around with your list for a few weeks. Played a Few Leagues (5:0, 4:1 loss vs TA, 4:1 loss vs Lands) with the list and adjusted it a little bit because of the rise of DnT (27:3 in the last 2 weeks online; lost to TA, Lands and MUD.)
Your discribed way of fighting Miracles is very effective and I tend to play it the same way. I feel the Match-up is very positive and I enjoy to play it.

Since the rise of popolarity of DnT I changed a few slots:

MD:
-1 Dismember
-1 Orb
+Fire/ice
+Forked Bolt

SB:

-1 Ancient Grudge
+ EE
- Submerge
+ Rough

Iam not even sure if these changes are correct, but i don`t like the Orb in the most popolar Match-ups right now (Grixis, Elves, Eldrazi, infect) while it is bomb vs Miracles (which is always dtb).
I like the idea to shave the Grave hate and bring in a Sulfur Elemantal, so i`ll give it a try.

Best Regards
Homason

[Jonathan Alexander]

Well, I can't say I agree with your changes ;-)

I wouldn't cut the maindeck Orb, no matter how bad it sometimes is. It just randomly wins a lot of games; sometimes even in Delver mirrors. Dismember is too important against Grixis, Eldrazi and Shardless.

Do you care to explain why you want to replace Grudge with Explosives? I don't see why you would want to do that, but I'm definitely not ruling out the possibility that I'm missing something, given that I have barely played with Explosives in this deck.

I think the Submerge slots are at least debatable depending on the metagame you're expecting to face. Same is true for Rough // Tumble, it can certainly be a valid inclusion.

[cheerios]

@Jona

Are you planning to do another Canadian VS X article? Appreciate the articles.

Cheers

[Homason]

Do you care to explain why you want to replace Grudge with Explosives? I don't see why you would want to do that, but I'm definitely not ruling out the possibility that I'm missing something, given that I have barely played with Explosives in this deck.

Hey again,

I replaced 1 Ancient Grudge with an Explosives, because I ended up having a useless card in hand very often. The benefits of Explosives are:

- deals with chalice, the same way
- also kills other Permanents (Endless one, MotR,...)
- It is one more way to grow our Goyfs vs Grixis and Eldrazi
- It is some kind of sweeper

I think the Submerge slots are at least debatable depending on the metagame you're expecting to face. Same is true for Rough // Tumble, it can certainly be a valid inclusion.

I feel the same way. I currently run 1 Submerge and 1 Rough because of more DnT and less Bug Decks.

As you mentioned, Orb is a very powerful tool in many different Match-ups. What do you think about 3 Orbs in the Sb and 7 Removal Main configuration?

I get your point to the second Dismember. Fire//Ice was a try, which was obvious very helpful against DnT. And it is not of table yet, because I lost some Delver-Mirrors because I couldnt cast my removal :-(

[Jonathan Alexander]

@Jona

Are you planning to do another Canadian VS X article? Appreciate the articles.

Cheers

Thanks for your feedback! I might do something similar again, but most matchups are way more complex than Canadian vs. Miracles. If I feel I have enough info to do something like this again, I will.

Hey again,

I replaced 1 Ancient Grudge with an Explosives, because I ended up having a useless card in hand very often. The benefits of Explosives are:

- deals with chalice, the same way
- also kills other Permanents (Endless one, MotR,...)
- It is one more way to grow our Goyfs vs Grixis and Eldrazi
- It is some kind of sweeper

Not really convinced, but I'm gonna give it a try anyway. Might take a while though, I barely get to play Canadian.

As you mentioned, Orb is a very powerful tool in many different Match-ups. What do you think about 3 Orbs in the Sb and 7 Removal Main configuration?

I strongly dislike 7 removal the same way I dislike 11+ creatures. You just end up wth useless cards too often in combo and control (Miracles) matchups.

Originally, I had Slyvan Library on that slot because it is an extra threat that doesn't give you diminishing returns from drawing too many creatures and it helps you find extra removal in creature matchups. It was Snapcaster Mage for a bit in late 2012 when everyone was on some form of Deathrite Shaman deck.

[Raticate_Tail]

Just noticed this puppy played to the top 4 of a French tournament:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=14290&d=285279&f=LE

No stifles with a heavy removal package split between dismember and forked bolt. A whole two copies of counterspell and a big tweak in the threatbase. He plays a green sun's zenith package of two zeniths, a goyf and a scavenging ooze in addition to his 4 delvers and 4 mongeese. Having access to 6 copies of mongoose seems at odds with having no stifles to disrupt main, although the added removal spells likely helps. It seems like he also has a similar philosophy to JonLX where goyf is clearly the worst creature.

His sideboard is all one-ofs, including a copy of ceremonious rejection, (which seems reasonable) a copy of roast (which seems like hot garbage) and a copy of vapor snag (which seems suboptimal).

Thoughts on this spicy meatball?

[MTB]

First of all- I tried all these cards and they can all be fine in a specific meta.

Roast- I tried it and its fine against Eldrazi but beeing a sorcery is a huge drawback. It means you will take five from the smasher before you can kill it. Sadly a third dismember is too much lifeloss but if you want to improve your Eldrazi matchup the first step would be to increase the goyf count.

Green suns zenith - Also something I tried but not really liked it. It improves miracle (more goose, harder to hit with balance) and Eldrazi (more goyfs) for sure but in every other matchup its horrible to tap 3 mana at sorcery speed to get a goyf that can be spell pierced.

Ooze - Although a little bit slow its really good in some matchups as it can easily grow bigger than goyf or reality smasher. If you play zenith you should play one somewhere in your 75.

Counterspell - A powerful tool no doubts here but holding up 2 mana while casting zenith seems rough also more than one copy seems clunky especially against decks like elves or taxes.

What I not tried
Vapor snag - A temporary removal most of the time (except angler, tokens or reanimated stuff) can help you to bring in the Last points of damage but it requires a Board presence and as your creatures are mainly 3/x its like Bolt+1 damage.

Ceremonious rejection- Only usefull against Eldrazi and MUD which both play cavern. Seems pretty narrow to me. Again more goyfs would help here.

Kind regards,

M

[Jonathan Alexander]

Roast- I tried it and its fine against Eldrazi but beeing a sorcery is a huge drawback. It means you will take five from the smasher before you can kill it. Sadly a third dismember is too much lifeloss but if you want to improve your Eldrazi matchup the first step would be to increase the goyf count.

Dismember means you take four from a Smasher before you kill it. Not really a world of difference. I think Sorcery speed vs. Thought-Knot is a better argument. That being said, I'm toying around with Roast in UR right now and it's alright. Probably still worse than the second Dismember in Canadian though. Also agree on the Goyf thing, that's a better way to address Eldrazi.