I've been testing:
4 Delver
4 Goose
2 Hooty
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Bolt
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Force
18 Lands the usual suspects
2 Pierce
2 Snare
1 Counterspell
1 Forked Bolt
1 Loam
1 Dismember
The tension between Mongoose and Mandrills doesn't come up enough to be concerned about (although it has been an issue sometimes). Trample + Push Proof + Able to cast for 1 mana has been enough better than big Tarmogoyf I think. Against Angler decks you need to trample over postboard (or maindeck) TNN anyway so it's sort of a wash there and so the main loss is against Eldrazi which doesn't seem to be very popular anymore.
I made the 3/1 split of Snare/Pierce into 2/2 because Counterbalance isn't a thing anymore, although now Baleful Strix is everywhere so maybe this isn't right.
I like the 1 Loam still although the Barbarian Ring interaction (1 Ring sb) has never come up.
I sort of agree with the idea of "I'm a super streamlined efficient machine and I'm not interested in playing any clunky goodstuff" but in practice the adage of any low-to-the-ground aggressive deck will generally hold true, which is "If you want the advantage then you need to either be a bit bigger or a LOT faster." When all the opponents are playing Daze, StP etc it's impossible to be even faster/more efficient and you trade resources often, so when the dust settles if you can just jam a Loam or a TNN you will pull ahead by a lot compared to if you just had another copy of a Force Spike type of card. In a way it's a case of "there are no wrong threats, only wrong answers".
I have been using the following Sb
2 TNN
2 Grudge
3 Pyroblast
1 Disrupt
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Electrickery
2 Winter Orb
1 Roast
2 Surgical
I could consider cutting 1 or both Grudge for Abrade but I think in every matchup where you want artifact hate the flashback is way more important than the flexibility.
Now that Top is not a card I'm not sure how much I like Winter Orb any more. It seems like a mediocre 'catch all' kind of card that is only okay in different matchups but not an ideal option in any of them. It almost feels like putting a maindeck card in the sideboard in that sense. I already was unimpressed with WOrb in non-Miracles MUs in the last format but I still played 3 because I thought it was worth it just for that, now I don't know.
I kind of want to test a pinger in the SB because DNT/Elves/Strix are all really annoying. Sparkmage/Staticaster/Granger Guildmage/Daybreak Ranger/Gelectrode/Suqata Firewalker all have various pros/cons but maybe Honden of Infinite Rage could be the pick? Immune to creature removal means that maybe it's also okay in matchups where you would want Sulfuric Vortex. (All of these except maybe Daybreak suck against Leovold though which is kind of disappointing).
The other reason why I was thinking of these is because I was looking at Hornets Nest as an anti-creature option but it's probably too expensive and there are too many non-damage ways to remove it (and the idea of combining it with a pinger is probably way too ambitious besides).
Edit:
After playing some games with Honden it actually seems really good!
Against the new Miracles it's like a 1/1 TNN that is immune to Terminus/Pyroblast but unlike Sulfuric Vortex it also mops up all Snapcasters and mentor tokens
Against DNT or Elves it's almost like a 3 mana Avatar of Woe (i.e. not too much worse than Staticaster)
Edit Again: Is Granite Shard better?
Last edited by kombatkiwi; 08-13-2017 at 02:08 PM.
Would BUG stifle lists discussions belong in this thread or the Team America thread?
Hey guys
short and maybe simple question: How do we beat Bant Blade? How do we sideboard against them?
I'm really having issues beating them. I've tried to attack their mana which feels sort of difficult due to their 8 dorks (maybe I was just not lucky there since the approach kind of felt right), I've tried to let go of parts of the tempo plan and just add more artefact hate and I've tried to just trade their main business spells which didn't work out neither for they have more quality in the mid game.
I'm really struggeling here. I'm aware the matchup is rather unfavorable but they are not unbeatable (are they?) so I would really appreciate a short guide line of how to finish them off... :)
By now I play Canadian just for fun, my two cents: i like to bring in vs bant blade: 2 Blast, 2 Flusterstorm, 2 Ancient Grudge and 2 Price of Progress and set up the game only in pure tempo style. If i have success in the first turns, defending my Delver and Stifle Batterskull germ / equip or Jitte equip, I take the time to play Ancient Grudge, then Price of Progress / Nemesis end the game.
Hello,
currently I am running the RUG in Denial list by Sean Brown.
Mentioned here, at the bottom of the page https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...gacy-challenge
Anybody else trying that build? In the current meta, I like it much more than the classic Mongoose build.
I think right now people haven't been giving Canadian Threshold enough credit for how good it actually is right now. It is the deck that is the best home for Stifle right now and it has a favourable matchup against Czech Pile. It is very difficult for Czech Pile to answer Mongoose, Mandrills or TNN, and Canadian has the ability to cripple their mana development with Stifle and Wasteland. I think the performance of Canadian Threshold at MKM Hamburg is a big testament to this point.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16936&d=304761&f=LE
I honestly think that this is the optimal build of Canadian Threshold right now. I have been playing a list very similar to this at some local events recently and it has felt very strong.
I would like to make a couple observations:
-Hooting Mandrills is great, even if it gets in the way of Nimble Mongoose. The anti-synergy isn't as bad as you think.
-You want 6-7 removal spells main deck.
-Play Spell Snare, it is very good right now, because of the number of Snapcaster Mages.
-Play 1-2 TNN's in the main, it is very good when your opponent is off balance.
-Life from the Loam is one of the most insane sideboard cards (i might be a little biased).
Please feel free to dispute the points I am making, I would love to discuss and develop Canadian Threshold more right now.
My maindeck is the same as that -1 TNN, -1 Preordain, +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Counterspell (only a few posts back). Of course these are very minor choices and could be argued either way.
Vs the Czech Pile matchup one of their most effective cards against this deck is Baleful Strix, so the number of those that they choose to use can have a significant effect on the expected win percentage. I saw that some versions of 4C are adding white for Lingering Souls instead because it's better in the mirror, which is probably good for RUG.
I have never really liked Submerge that much but with the popularity of various Marit Lage decks increasing maybe it is okay. At the moment I think 2 Grudge is better than 1 Grudge 1 Abrade but I need to test this more. I think the move away from Winter Orb is correct with no Divining Top around but I think having access to 1 copy in the SB is still reasonable.
I played the Abrade over the second grudge as I wanted to have the option to increase the removal count postboard as I had no rough//tumble in the board. Also I never felt 2 grudges would be necessary in any relevant Matchups....against D&T you maybe want 2 Grudges but Abrade is awesome in that matchup.
Sadly I think you have to play at least one or two Submerge as its really good although its pretty narrow because there are not much green Decks in the format right know. Against lands I dont bring the in if I think my opponent knows what he is doing because he will play around it anyway.
Kind regards,
Marius
Do you draw a card if Compost gets Abrupt Decay'd?
No, Compost is in the Graveyard when Abrupt Decay finishes resolving so it will not "see" it and not trigger.
This is the same reason why if you Decay a Rest In Peace, the RiP is exiled (it "sees" it's own ability) and Decay would go to the 'yard (RiP is gone and so is it's effect).
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Thanks for the explanation. I think I will take Marius' list for a spin this friday at FNM. I had some success previously with some similar lists that Jon Alexander played with all removal proof guys
Concerning this list I really dislike a couple things:
1) The sideboard. I think that if you're gonna play a pinger it needs to not be creature based, or needs to be able to go tempo neutral. Three mana for a pinger who can just die to bolt/push is unacceptable IMO. Abrade seems like a pretty poor option, and I'm not crazy about the exclusion of rough//tumble, but I can see the rationale if you think that true name is a more important card.
2) Only 1x dismember in the whole list. For a list that has no way to attack through angler besides delver, I think you need more ways to kill it if one comes down. I think that 2x dismember main is pretty free to play.
In general, I really like this creature configuration along with preordain main (something I had been advocating for a few pages back). I am, however, interested in trying out some amount of cryptic serpents instead of hooting mandrills in order to completely remove the anti synergy between mandrills and nimble mongoose.
If I played Izzet Staticaster, I would play it against Storm, Elves, Rabblemasters, D&T. I would not need to worry about bolts and pushes. Creature is even better than a spell against Duress and Thalia.
I already tried Cryptic Serpent and I think it is waaay too expensive.
I have found 2x Dismember is not free because of the life loss, 1/5 of your starting total is a lot. I have been playing 1 Roast in the SB for matchups where you need this effect.
Re: Marius comments on Abrade, I agree that I don't think you want 2 Grudge in any matchup, but I do think there are many matchups where you want 2 Shatters, and it's easier to draw 1 Grudge than 1 Abrade + 1 other Shatter
The problem I anticipate with Serpent is that there are many spots where I cast Mandrils exiling exactly my entire graveyard. Cryptic Costs 2 at minimum in this situation and likely costs more as there are probably fetchlands or wastelands or creatures among those cards. Not having evasion is also relevant, and I find that Mandrils hardly ever messes up Mongoose, but serpent seems good enough that I will test it.
Rough/Tumble is consistently one of the most unimpressive sideboard cards for me unless I expect a lot of my opponents to be playing Nettle Sentinel. I agree that noncreature pingers seem better than Staticaster (not only are they harder to kill but they can also go face).
Does anybody think the new sorcery could be decent?
Chart a Course
1U
Draw 2, then if you didn't attack this turn, discard 1
Probably just as a 1-of (e.g. in the Preordain spot)
The fact it is a creature is relevant against thalia. Against D&T you similarly have to worry about swords obviously, so being a creature is once again a liability there.
In my experience, the tempo that you keep/gain from the 1 mana cost of dismember will more than likely even out with the fact that you have to pay 4 life. Maybe it's just my playstyle, but I really like the card and almost never play less than 2.
I think that you need to make a decision on what sideboard card you want to play, and not play a suboptimal version of artifact interaction and removal.
I will likely agree with you on serpent when I get around to playing it. I really want it to be good, but costing two (at best) is probably going to make my opinion pretty poor.
I really just don't like playing pingers in general. I'd rather play rough//tumble or forked bolt/arc trail in that spot.
@Marius, as I said above, I just don't really like pingers, and would rather more stack based removal. A non-creature pinger you could try is Honden of Infinite Rage?
I talked about the second dismember above. I really value being advantaged in the grixis delver mu. I think you need multiple dismembers and rough//tumble in order to be advantaged.
I think the point about red blast is gonna be another nail in the coffin for serpent for me. I hadn't even thought of that tbh. I still want to test the card, but yeah it seems not good enough.
Dissenter’s Deliverance is another good option in these colors for artifact destruction to accompany Ancient Grudge.
I don't understand this logic. If you kill one thing with it, you are already way ahead. It forces your opponent to have an answer immediately or you take over the game. Even if they have an answer, it is a 2 for 1, and of course, you could always counter the removal spell
I like one in my sideboard, one in the main. You can't cast two of these in a delver mirror and expect to win. I bring it in against Eldrazi, elves, and taxes. But never against a deck with lightning bolts.
But that is the entire point of the card. Have you ever gotten randomly screwed over by an ensnaring bridge, meekstone, or umezawa's jitte? (the list goes on). Many times I've drawn both grudges against D&T and end up having a dead card. I think 1 Grudge, 1 Abrade is perfect. Sometimes they open with Aether Vial, sometimes they open with Mom. Also, sometimes eldrazi has an aggro start like double mimic, sometimes they play a chalice. Drawing too many grudges is a good way to lose a game IMO.
Not sure why you are so opposed to pingers, as they are usually 2 for 1's in a deck thats short on those. I play rough // tumble at times, but sometimes is awkward with true name. I've gravitated away from rough // tumble as of late.
3 mana sorcery speed not to have an effect until the following turn? I don't think thats good enough.
I can't believe you are having success with two dismembers in the grixis delver MU. They have so much reach in their deck with deathrites and bolts.
Im currently trying 2 pierces/1 izzet charm... (swiss knife) and can load up our graveyard fast for multiple mongeese/mandrils. Im playing 1 goyf still with 2 mandrils and 1 tnn main. For the removal suite i'll try 3x burst lightnings (before it was tarfires) but you dont wanna use it without our own goyfs. Fpush is everywhere, goyf just eats lots of removals. The idea basically is cast spells on opponents turn and continue to dedicate our own turn tempoing. Will post my analysis here...soon.
Last edited by poxy14; 09-25-2017 at 10:48 PM.
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