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Thread: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

  1. #221

    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    Dack is awful. I'd play Jace Beleren before him.
    Is he really that awful? I mean his plus one is ok the -2 though is where it's at. I mean sure it doesn't deal with batterskull, but it deals with any other equipment just fine.

  2. #222
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Personally I'd think Dack is worth testing as a singleton. All of the abilities can be relevant, and a repeatable Faithless Looting ability is great in a deck like RUG.

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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Lets wait for the tests. Personally I don' find neither space nor use for him. Looting effect doesn't seem esp. good for thresh, we need every card, unless we may discard lands. He's much better sutieed for a deck with LftL and Punishing Fire... NLT?

  4. #224

    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    Lets wait for the tests. Personally I don' find neither space nor use for him. Looting effect doesn't seem esp. good for thresh, we need every card, unless we may discard lands. He's much better sutieed for a deck with LftL and Punishing Fire... NLT?
    His +1 feeds goyf and goose, and his -2 wins equipment wars. Both of those things can be challenges for RUG in various matchups. I honestly think he has potential as a sideboard option, but I doubt I'd want him in the main. Consider though, that he can potentially replace both Sylvan Library and Ancient Grudge in sideboards, effectively buying you another card slot.

  5. #225

    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cambriel View Post
    His +1 feeds goyf and goose, and his -2 wins equipment wars. Both of those things can be challenges for RUG in various matchups. I honestly think he has potential as a sideboard option, but I doubt I'd want him in the main. Consider though, that he can potentially replace both Sylvan Library and Ancient Grudge in sideboards, effectively buying you another card slot.
    His plus one isn't that great. I mean sure it feeds goose and goyf, but we don't want to have card disadvantage by doing it. If we pitch lands then we're down to like two duals of any one color and only one if we already have one of that color out. This could lead to some very easy wasteland blow outs by the opponent if they see we pitched volcanic and aggressively waste the other red sources. It has some use in pitching cards that become increasingly worse as the game goes on such as daze or stifle depending on the match up. We can also use it to dig for more disruption against combo by discarding any extra creatures. It's definitely interesting, but the looting isn't exactly where RUG wants to be. The looting has potential you just have to find the right stuff to discard for the given situation.

  6. #226

    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Hi all! Recently stumbled onto this website as MTGSalvation is a bit stagnant in the Legacy threads. I picked up RUG delver about a month ago (the normal 54 + 2/2/2 Spell Snare/Spell Pierce/Forked Bolt) to take to my LGS' Legacy Tuesdays. The meta is fairly diverse, but mostly in "fair" decks. Every once in awhile there's a Belcher/S&S/Elves/Infect player or two around, but for the most part it's very blue heavy (Miracles, UWR, Shardless BUG, Team America, RUG Delver). I have a pretty good feel for the deck after playing it for this past month (playing with Stifle was one of the reasons the deck appealed to me, and it hasn't disappointed!), but even though I feel I have a strong sideboard (thanks to some netdeck searching and comments on MTGSalvation), I'm still not 100% confidant of my sideboarding plans. My current sideboard is:

    3x Red Elemental Blast
    3x Submerge
    2x Rough // Tumble
    1x Ancient Grudge
    1x Flusterstorm
    1x Grafdigger's Cage
    1x Krosan Grip
    1x Sulfuric Vortex
    1x Surgical Extraction
    1x Vendilion Clique

    In general, I find myself going -4 FoW on the play, and -4 Daze on the draw almost no matter what (like I said, about 90% fair decks). I know generally what cards I want to bring in where, but I'm not sure what things I'm cutting. Is it ever right to cut creatures? It seems like I just alter my countermagic package depending on the deck, take out FB if it has a lack of targets, and trim the numbers of Stifle or Lightning Bolt if necessary? What would be some basic SB plans against UWR or BUG?

  7. #227

    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHeff View Post
    Hi all! Recently stumbled onto this website as MTGSalvation is a bit stagnant in the Legacy threads. I picked up RUG delver about a month ago (the normal 54 + 2/2/2 Spell Snare/Spell Pierce/Forked Bolt) to take to my LGS' Legacy Tuesdays. The meta is fairly diverse, but mostly in "fair" decks. Every once in awhile there's a Belcher/S&S/Elves/Infect player or two around, but for the most part it's very blue heavy (Miracles, UWR, Shardless BUG, Team America, RUG Delver). I have a pretty good feel for the deck after playing it for this past month (playing with Stifle was one of the reasons the deck appealed to me, and it hasn't disappointed!), but even though I feel I have a strong sideboard (thanks to some netdeck searching and comments on MTGSalvation), I'm still not 100% confidant of my sideboarding plans. My current sideboard is:

    3x Red Elemental Blast
    3x Submerge
    2x Rough // Tumble
    1x Ancient Grudge
    1x Flusterstorm
    1x Grafdigger's Cage
    1x Krosan Grip
    1x Sulfuric Vortex
    1x Surgical Extraction
    1x Vendilion Clique

    In general, I find myself going -4 FoW on the play, and -4 Daze on the draw almost no matter what (like I said, about 90% fair decks). I know generally what cards I want to bring in where, but I'm not sure what things I'm cutting. Is it ever right to cut creatures? It seems like I just alter my countermagic package depending on the deck, take out FB if it has a lack of targets, and trim the numbers of Stifle or Lightning Bolt if necessary? What would be some basic SB plans against UWR or BUG?
    For UWR with your build bring 3x REB, 2x artifact hate and side out OTP -4 force, -1 spell pierce OTD -2 force, -3 daze. Another option is to also shave one goyf which is something I tend to do when I know the opponent will most likely bring in RIP.
    For BUG it depends on if we're talking shardless BUG, midrange BUG or tempo BUG (something you don't see too often these days). Regardless of the BUG build you take 4 force out because it's horrible in fair match ups and even worse when they have Hymn. After that what you bring is some mix of submerge/REB depending on how many TNNs you suspect they have.

  8. #228
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Contract Killer View Post
    Another option is to also shave one goyf which is something I tend to do when I know the opponent will most likely bring in RIP.
    +1,
    though not much of an impact, i would rather bring in sulfur elem or any crit in my sb just to replace goyf.. vendilion is very good here! and dazes are additional out vs tnns alongside multiple copies of rebs. All copies of stifles should stay (OTP and OTD) as these functions multi-role...added artifact hate : ) and slows them down getting to that dangerous three manas...
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I second the above sb plans. Also, if your meta lacks grave decks, you can (maybe) shave the gy hate and add an Artifact Mutation which is an amazing tempo boost and gives you so much board power once you'll hit Batterskull... which is a go-to equipment of any SFM deck facing Thresh.
    I like Pithing Needle, see the above discussion why it's good; mostly it's your one-mana answer to cards that either stop your onslaught (MoR, Maze), serve an important role in opponent's development (Top, KotR) or are outright wincons (Liliana, Grindstone). I play two of them, but one may be enough. Depends on what you want from the card and if it fits your style.
    I'm not sure about Vortex, on paper it's strong card with lots of applications, sadly I never had much success with it and I remember it was: immediatelly Abrupted once it dealt whopping two damage, or being an annoying topdeck that didn't help me when I needed to get any counter for the inevitable Entreat, or actually helping my opponent race me once he sworded my goyf to finally get the germ through my wall.

  10. #230

    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Thanks for the sideboarding advice! As for Artifact Mutation, do you feel like that's better than Ancient Grudge? Sure it's not the tempo advantage that AM is, but with 2 shots in 1 card it has built-in card advantage. Plus if you use it once against UWR, they won't drop another arti until they have a way to get rid of it. The K-Grip is extra insurance against Miracles (which my meta has two semi-regulars of) so I wouldn't cut that either.

  11. #231
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHeff View Post
    Thanks for the sideboarding advice! As for Artifact Mutation, do you feel like that's better than Ancient Grudge? Sure it's not the tempo advantage that AM is, but with 2 shots in 1 card it has built-in card advantage. Plus if you use it once against UWR, they won't drop another arti until they have a way to get rid of it. The K-Grip is extra insurance against Miracles (which my meta has two semi-regulars of) so I wouldn't cut that either.
    Opponent attacked with 2 Dark Confidants, one equipped with Jitte, i had no creatures in play and with one card in hand. Artifact Mutation blew up the jitte and I traded 2 saprolings for 2 confidants... Welcome to value town.

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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Ancient Grudge has a built-in CA, but as the main equipments-heavy deck is any kind of SFM 60, it's quite reasonable to expect RiP (which nullifies the flashback) and BSK (which is a prime target for Mutation, as five 1/1 dudes is enough to either stall for the Delver win or to turn the tide against a sole SFM/Thalia/whatever the dude that survives your many Bolts).
    In a less SFM centric meta (where there are not that many DnT, Mav, UWR and such) it isn't that powerful, of course. But I see the germs everywhere. As a compromise, I play both AG and AM as a singleton in my sb.
    KGrip is very good choice, esp. against Miracles that can't touch our mana. While Mutation is powerful, it has the downside of being effective only against big targets (mostly BSK, but also Stax thingies, no matter they're not played anymore) and costing double colored mana. I'd cut it for KGrip in a meta with lesser pressence of SFM, unless there'd be lots of MUD flying around, in which case I'd increase the AG count to two (so that I got lots of early outs against lock pieces) and I'd keep one AM as a "you lose" card for any of the big targets be it Golem, KFM, Hellkite or WCE, once in pale moon living a dream when you kill sick targets like Emperion or Titan.

  13. #233
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I've updated the primer with match-up analyses and sideboarding tips for the DTBs and UWR Delver. If you have the time, feel free to read through it and tell me what you think.
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  14. #234
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Miracles:

    OUT: Daze, Forked Bolt
    IN: Pyroblast, Destructive Revelry

    in my oppinion this should be the right boarding plan:

    - 4 daze
    - 2 forked bolt/dismember
    - 1 wasteland ( if you need the space for other sb cards )

    + 2 flusterstorm
    + 3 Pyroblast
    + 1 Surgical Extration

    BUG delver:

    OUT: Force of Will
    IN: Submerge

    This should be right:

    - 4 Fow otp / 2 daze 4 fow otd

    + 3 Submerge
    + 1 Surgical extration
    + 2 Flusterstorm otd

    Jund:

    OUT: Force of Will
    IN: Submerge

    this should be like this:

    - 4 Fow
    - 1 forked bolts if you play them because those are worse than rough//toumble

    +3 Submerge
    +2 Rough//Toumble

    And some other mu's:

    Elves:

    - 4 daze
    - 4 stifle

    + 2 Flusterstorm
    + 3 Submerge
    + 2 rough toumble
    + 1 Grafdiggers cage

    ANT:

    - 2 Lightning Bolt
    - 2 Forked bolt
    - 1 Nimble Mongoose

    + 2 Flusterstorm
    + 1 grafdiggers cage
    + 2 Pyroblast

    Death and taxes:

    - 4 Stifle

    + 2 rough//Toumble
    + 1 ancient grudge
    + 1 Sulfur elemental

    Deathblade:

    - 2 fow otp / - 1 daze - 2 fow otd

    + 1 ancient grudge
    + 1 destructive revelry
    + 2 pyroblast otp / + 3 pyroblast otd


    Another thing is, i don't like your example sb. You should add there more hate for miracle since miracle is the top deck atm. This could be winter orb, sulfuric vortex and clique. Those are also great vs other bad mu's and have a high impact. For Example: Winter orb is great vs any shardless bug, bug control, miracle and combo. But it makes your daze/spell pierce/flusterstorm even better in the lategame when they usually are dead cards. Sulfuric vortex works also great vs death and taxes, lands and any other "draw-go" mu's.

    If there are any questions, feel free to ask.

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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by index View Post
    Death and taxes:

    - 4 Stifle
    I don't think this is right. Stifle protects your mana and it's another out to SFM and RiP. I think there are other things to take out, I'd start with -1 each of FoW, Daze, Stifle, random card. You don't need all the Stifles, but you need at least some of them.

  16. #236

    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    I don't think this is right. Stifle protects your mana and it's another out to SFM and RiP. I think there are other things to take out, I'd start with -1 each of FoW, Daze, Stifle, random card. You don't need all the Stifles, but you need at least some of them.
    Personally against D&T I like the following:
    -4 FOW, -2 Daze / +1 rough, 2 artifact hate, 1 sulfur elemental, 2 pithing needle
    Force is just so bad here especially if they have vial because then it doesn't even counter their creatures. Sure you can live the dream and always have force for their turn 1 vial, but that defeats the purpose since they will still have creatures. In addition they also have some number of caverns usually to protect high value targets like SFM. Is it worth bringing in clique here? It steals SFM targets and is another way to deal with flickerwisp/ serra avenger. The downside to clique is the 3 mana can be kind of difficult against a deck with 4 waste, 4 port and all of our wastes will be aimed at either cavern/karakas/port unlike miracles where it can allow to help pay for clique.

    I tried a build with 2 probe, 2 forked bolt, 1 counterspell, 1 pierce and pithing needles in the side along with the regular sideboard choices. Unfortunately round 1 was loam control arguably one of the worst match ups and I lost in 2. Round 2 was D&T and I lost in 3 close games. After playing other rug builds 2/2/2 snare/pierce/forked bolt or probe builds I actually thing the 8 bolt plan is just better right now. Even against miracles half the time against them they seem to stabilize at 3 or less life and I can't push that last bit of damage through.
    With that being said I'm thinking about trying this
    Core 50, 3 goyf, 1 sylvan library, 4 chain lightning, 1 counterspell, 1 snare and probably a price or two in the side.
    The Library gives us card advantage through having a ponder on our upkeep which is really good if we're just going straight beat down plan and bolting their face very chance we get. Counterspell and snare I think allow for the most flexibility and efficiency. The single snare and counterspell split gives us more "Forces" for certain match ups since snare hits a lot of cards right now and counterspell is great against Miracles which is really popular. I think this configuration will really speed the deck up and offer resiliency with the two counters in it. What do you guys think?

  17. #237

    [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Interesting that there are so many different opinions about boarding against death&taxes.

    Your arguments make absolute sense but i board kinda differently:

    -force of will stays,the full set: people tend to board fow out against fair matchups because of the carddisadcantage but they miss something:
    Even in the fair games fow is a excellent tempo counter which allows you to drop a creature and counter their thread 100%.
    For example a lategame swords to plowshares can be negated.
    Remember jacob wilson in the finals against thomas enevoldsen in gp strassbourg,he also left in the whole set.

    By the way,i leave (2-4 of ) my fows in the deck against these fair decks:

    Mirror
    Esperblade
    Uwr delver



    - Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

  18. #238

    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I agree with not boarding out the FOWs for this match up. What I usually board out are the spell pierces and a goyf for sulfur elemental, and a pair of grudges.

  19. #239
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I play really controlish games against DnT, esp. in light of RiP that negates Goyfs. I board in Needles (MoR, Vial, Port), Roughs (obv.), artifact removal. With FoW beeing pretty weak against Caver/Vial, I take some of them out, namely because I don't really try to protect Goyf, becasue they got lots of options how to get rid of it. I usualy deliver some fast dmg with Delver, then when the sky blackens... well, whitens, I try to clean the mess with removal, while destroying the ground forces with Rough, Needle and Grudge. After they got rid of Delver (and Goyf), it's up to Mongoose to win, even as a 1/1. As long as you can keep their side of table empty, mere 1/1 will win, esp. if it's followed by additional 1/1 dudes.
    It's not super duper amazing plan, and the games tend to be ugly. At the end, a win is all that matters.

    What I'm trying to accomplish in DnT matchup are these goals (in no particular order):
    - save my mana (Stifle the Wasteland activations, Needle naming the Port)
    - stop their EOT shenanigans and mana advantage (Needle/Grudge the Vial)
    - prevent the use of equipments (bolt the SFM, pith the Jitte, or simply destroy equips with artifact removal)
    - kill their dudes, hopefully with CA (mostly Rough, but Elemental also helps as it takes out the x/1 dudes)
    - Snare the gamebreaking spells (SFM, Jitte, RiP) or those that interfere with our plan (Thalia) or deck (Leonin Arbiter)
    - Pierce/FoW the removal or RiP (not that I keep Pierce postboard, but I have done so in past)
    - keep Bolts for x/3 dudes (Avenger) and as a combat trick with a two-for-one potential
    - FoW Brimaz/Elf, if there's a chance
    - deal some fast damage with Aberations, use Goyf aggresively as long as it's possible, retort to 1/1 beats once all else fails
    - gain some CA with Forked Bolt
    - kill/neutralize MoR asap

    You need:
    Rough as your one-sided WoG
    Needle, asa versatile answer to lots of cards
    Artifact removal against equipments; Grudge is goo that it may be "wasted" on Vial if need be, AM makes lots of tokens occasionaly.

    You want:
    Less FoWs. Some of them come out for the real answers.
    Less Dazes. It's weak spell in grindy games.
    Less Pierces. It sometimes stops StP and RiP (as Vial is often a turn1 play) and that's about it.

    Is there anything I'm missing?

  20. #240
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Thanks for the input, guys. Hopefully I'll get some spare time towards the weekend to update the primer some more.
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    Canadian Threshold Primer!
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