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Thread: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

  1. #2381

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I believe probe becomes stronger the more narrow but strong cards like Stifle and Spell snare you run - which Canadian run. Knowing when to tap for a threat and when to hold up countermagic can be very strong.

  2. #2382
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Hi guys!
    Another very good result by Marius Bender at MKM Barcelona, yesterday!
    I report here the list:

    Main Deck:

    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island
    4 Wasteland
    4 Delver of Secrets / Insectile Aberration
    4 Nimble Mongoose
    2 Hooting Mandrills
    1 True-Name Nemesis
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    1 Preordain
    4 Force of Will
    4 Daze
    4 Stifle
    2 Spell Pierce
    2 Spell Snare
    4 Lightning Bolt
    1 Dismember
    1 Forked Bolt

    Sideboard:

    2 Submerge
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Sylvan Library
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Abrade
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Snapcaster Mage
    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Izzet Staticaster

    I don't know the matchup of the Swiss, but in top 8 Marius defeat a Stompy Soldiers deck, and lose in semi-final by Sneak and Show.
    Last edited by Hrothgar; 11-12-2017 at 08:14 AM.

  3. #2383

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Sweet!

    Marius, how did you find snapcaster mage was during the tournament? What MU have you wanted to bring this in for?

    I have honestly thought about snapcaster mages before in the sideboard primarily for combo. But I think the combo decks are already pretty good MU, and I would be hesitant to side in snapcaster mages against all the Deathrite decks

  4. #2384

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I see Marius cut Compost from SB and are now only running 2 grind cards in extra TNN and Sylvan.
    Btw didnt he lose to show n tell last tournament finals?

  5. #2385
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    What do you guys think about Spell Snare?

    I absolutely love the card but I can't justify it as good enough because it is very narrow. Snare has little or no application against a lot of the top decks such as SnT, Elves, Grixis Delver/Canadian, Eldrazi, and more... For every time Snare is good, there is another time when it completely blows. Why not just play more cantrips/removal/threats instead?
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  6. #2386
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    What do you guys think about Spell Snare?

    I absolutely love the card but I can't justify it as good enough because it is very narrow. Snare has little or no application against a lot of the top decks such as SnT, Elves, Grixis Delver/Canadian, Eldrazi, and more... For every time Snare is good, there is another time when it completely blows. Why not just play more cantrips/removal/threats instead?
    I think that Spell Snare is excellent right now. With Czech Pile being a top deck right now, Legacy is flush wit Snapcaster Mage and Baleful Strix, 2 cards that are excellent targets for Spell Snare. Storm has Infernal Tutor and Cabal Ritual to hit. I will agree it is lacklustre against Grixis Delver and Elves, though hitting Chalice feels pretty good, but when Spell Snare is good, it is an extremely good counterspell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilkin View Post
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  7. #2387

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    What do you guys think about Spell Snare?

    I absolutely love the card but I can't justify it as good enough because it is very narrow. Snare has little or no application against a lot of the top decks such as SnT, Elves, Grixis Delver/Canadian, Eldrazi, and more... For every time Snare is good, there is another time when it completely blows. Why not just play more cantrips/removal/threats instead?
    I would never cut the card. Even its not so bad against grixis delver with 3-4 pyromancer, and 2 edicts post board, even sometimes snapcaster.

    I would board them out against elves but it does counter visionary and green sun's for 1, so its not entirely dead game 1.

    Snare is the cleanest way to deal with creatures that have ETB ability (like snapcaster, strix, stoneforge, and visionary)

    Theres no shortage of non creature CMC 2 either

  8. #2388
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    On the topic of Spell Snare, how much does this deck care about Dark Confidant? The life loss for the opponent is nice, but the card advantage is often enough to dig us into a hole that we can't tempo our way out of. I typically hold onto Snare against Bob if I think there's another more impactful 2 drop incoming (Snapcaster, Tarmogoyf, Stoneforge Mystic) but that then creates the risk of losing to a flood of non CMC 2 cards.

    The broader question here - is it generally correct to fire off Spell Snare at first possible chance (excluding corner cases such as against Daze)?

  9. #2389

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesture View Post
    On the topic of Spell Snare, how much does this deck care about Dark Confidant? The life loss for the opponent is nice, but the card advantage is often enough to dig us into a hole that we can't tempo our way out of. I typically hold onto Snare against Bob if I think there's another more impactful 2 drop incoming (Snapcaster, Tarmogoyf, Stoneforge Mystic) but that then creates the risk of losing to a flood of non CMC 2 cards.

    The broader question here - is it generally correct to fire off Spell Snare at first possible chance (excluding corner cases such as against Daze)?
    Well, there are not hard and fast rules in MTG. Everything depends on the contents of your hand, life totals, etc. If you have a lightning bolt and a spell snare in hand, and your opponent casts a dark confidant, its not such a simple question to say "snare it" or "bolt it". What is the avg CMC of their deck? Whats their life total? How many 2 drops do they have in their deck? Are you pressuring their life total in a significant way?

    Maybe you should daze first even if you have a spell snare, because spell snare is a hard counter until the end of the game, whereas daze is going to eventually be dead. But maybe not, as Daze can potentially counter any spell, and spell snare can only target spells with CMC 2.

    If you want me to generalize, I typically envision bolting my opponents 1 drops, snaring their 2 drops, and dazing their 3 drops. More specifically, I want to lean on my dazes / forces when I'm playing a threat on my own turn, so my opponent never has a turn where there I can't interact with them. In your scenario, knowing literally nothing else, I would spell snare their dark confidant (and this is a card we care very much about), as this is a resource denial deck that trades 1 for 1, we simply can't afford our opponent drawing extra cards (and even extra lands are very impactful vs RUG, as mana screwing our opponents is pretty much what our game plan relies on).

    Also, a good way to lose games with this deck is to be too concerned with what else your opponent will play in future turns. Can you imagine how silly you would feel by saving a spell snare for "future 2 drops" and letting dark confidant resolve, while your opponent draws 2-4 extra cards?

  10. #2390
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Appreciate the quick response, congrats on the recent top8

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    Well, there are not hard and fast rules in MTG. Everything depends on the contents of your hand, life totals, etc. If you have a lightning bolt and a spell snare in hand, and your opponent casts a dark confidant, its not such a simple question to say "snare it" or "bolt it". What is the avg CMC of their deck? Whats their life total? How many 2 drops do they have in their deck? Are you pressuring their life total in a significant way?

    Maybe you should daze first even if you have a spell snare, because spell snare is a hard counter until the end of the game, whereas daze is going to eventually be dead. But maybe not, as Daze can potentially counter any spell, and spell snare can only target spells with CMC 2.
    You're right, all matchup advice is always contextual. I appreciate you adding a disclaimer that your advice shouldn't be taken at face value.

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    If you want me to generalize, I typically envision bolting my opponents 1 drops, snaring their 2 drops, and dazing their 3 drops. More specifically, I want to lean on my dazes / forces when I'm playing a threat on my own turn, so my opponent never has a turn where there I can't interact with them. In your scenario, knowing literally nothing else, I would spell snare their dark confidant (and this is a card we care very much about), as this is a resource denial deck that trades 1 for 1, we simply can't afford our opponent drawing extra cards (and even extra lands are very impactful vs RUG, as mana screwing our opponents is pretty much what our game plan relies on).

    Also, a good way to lose games with this deck is to be too concerned with what else your opponent will play in future turns. Can you imagine how silly you would feel by saving a spell snare for "future 2 drops" and letting dark confidant resolve, while your opponent draws 2-4 extra cards?
    This is great information and exactly what I was looking for. I'm new to RUG Delver, and having general legacy knowledge unfortunately doesn't help me with decisions like whether or not to Spell Snare opposing Dark Confidants.

    Additionally, I really like how you've laid out your general game plan. Making decisions in the moment is a huge part of Magic, but having a solid heuristic can save a lot of mental energy over several rounds, which is definitely something I've struggled with at larger events.

  11. #2391

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Thanks :)

    Glad you found the advice somewhat useful - I know how useless "it depends" can be when trying to learn a deck.

  12. #2392

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Hi there,

    sadly I cant provide a detailed tournament report as my notes look horrible.

    Round 1
    Bye - I drew in the finals of the Trial on Saturday (27 Players) with Momme Grupp who later Top8ed in the Main Event.

    Round 2
    Czech Pile
    I lost Game 1 to triple DRS and a strix which kept my Mandrills at bay. In the games 2&3 I took out all Delvers and he died both times with tons of removal stranded in his hand.
    Most memorable moment was game 3:
    He: Usea -> Ponder
    Me: Volc -> Go
    He: Fetch -> Go
    Me: Wasteland your Usea
    He: Nothing -> pass
    Me: Land -> Go
    He: second fetchland -> he:fetch -> Me: stifle -> He:fetch the other -> Me:fetch in response second stifle
    My turn -> Land -> TNN
    One Turn later a mandrills joint his fishy friend and the game was sealed fast.

    Round 3
    Elves
    I win Game 1 with double delver and Game 2 my opponent mulls down to 5 :(

    Round 4
    Czech Pile
    I win the first Game pretty fast after using my dismember on his shaman and rushing in with mandrills. In Game 2 I board out all Delvers again and after he was overrun by mandrills and goose he reveals his hand with REB, decay and push.

    Round 5
    Soldier Stompy
    Game 1 I am on the draw with a fine hand (I think something like 2 lands, Brainstorm, Bolt, Daze, Ponder, Mungoose/Delver). He is on the play with Plains...I think "Oh crap it's D&T...he plays chrome mox-> Chalice on 1.... ok it's even worse. I manage to get a Mandrills on board but get overwhelmed pretty fast by a ton of random dorks. Game 2 I daze the chalice out of his tomb and he never finds a second land. Game 3 I got a Nemesis on board but he was able to regain life due to Aerial resonder and the Monarch drew him a lot of Cards while exiling my mandrills.

    Round 6
    Hex Depth
    I threw away Game 1 by the most idiotic mistake ever (basicly the ability to sum up the power of Mandrills + TNN) and really raged about my stupidity but my opponent was a great guy who said me to relax as it was just game 1.
    Highlight of game 3 was me attacking him -> cop rotation in response -> I waste his depth -> crop rotate again -> I surgical his depth and fluster both rotations O.o

    Round 7
    BUG Delver
    I won both games without taking a single damage from him. Game 1 I think by a Mandrills (my notes suggest that at least) and some 3 power creature. In Game 2 I used Mandrills to shrink his goyfs to 3/4 so he had to double block my mandrills in my next attack but one Goyf met a submerge so that 1 Goyf was down. The second was recast in his next turn but I Snapcaster-> bolt him eot just to submerge the goyf again and bolt him to death (this was the only game I drew the Snapcaster so I can't say much about how good he was althogh I boarded him in a lot)

    Round 8
    ID with Grixis Delver (after winning Game 1 :D)

    Quarterfinals
    Soldierstompy
    I get my revange by winning Game 1&3. In Game 2 he was dead on board just to draw Whorship with his prelate in play....I was not able to find the Abrade or dismember in time and got overwhelmed by his army (Odric gave his whole team first strike, vigilance, lifelink, flying..... well that was enough).

    Semifinals
    Sneakshow
    Game 1 I started with a nice hand (2 lands, double force stifle, mungoose, snare (just pitch but thats fine)) sadly all I manage to draw in this game were lands, mungoos and mandrills. Game 2 I play land go -> tomb -> Defence Grid... I saw myself loosing and played Delver + Mungoos which my opponent asnwered with bloodmoon...I just attacked for 4 until he was dead O.o
    Game 3 I got a perfect hand I just need to find the second land with my ponder....3 nonlands-> shuffle -> draw ponder...Next tunr ponder-> 3 nonlands -> shuffle -> non land. So my lonely force is not enough to stop his sneak attack and I can't use the fluster or REB in my hand as my only land is tapped due to the ponder.

    I will explain some of the card choices at the end of this week :)

    Regards,

    Marius

  13. #2393

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Not drawing the second land is the biggest problem with this deck IMO. I dont want to add more lands but perhabs cutting a creature, a removal and a counterspell for 3 probes may do it. It indirectly adds to the landcount and also "increases" the mana denial package of Stifle-wasteland

  14. #2394

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Great result and great report, Marius. I'm excited to hear more about your card-choices, and how they performed!

  15. #2395

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I've never really liked the idea of multiple probes in the deck. It does do some nice things (fuel thresh, add sorcery for goyf), but its always felt like there is too much "air" in the deck with the addition of any significant amount of probes (2 or more).

    Mana screw is a part of magic. No matter how many lands you play, or ways to hit land drops, it will happen. It does not happen at a significant enough rate to make any changes to the main deck.

  16. #2396

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    So I'm back with a few explanations what cards I played and which I didn't.

    First of all the list

    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island
    4 Wasteland
    4 Delver of Secrets / Insectile Aberration
    4 Nimble Mongoose
    2 Hooting Mandrills
    1 True-Name Nemesis
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    1 Preordain
    4 Force of Will
    4 Daze
    4 Stifle
    2 Spell Pierce
    2 Spell Snare
    4 Lightning Bolt
    1 Dismember
    1 Forked Bolt

    Sideboard:

    2 Submerge
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Sylvan Library
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Abrade
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Snapcaster Mage (Barcelona) / Compost (Hamburg)
    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Izzet Staticaster

    Mainboard:
    4 Delvers / 4 Mungoose / 2 Mandrills / 1 TNN
    The thread suite was designed to withstand the most common played removal. While the role of Delver is primarily to serve as a fast clock against combo all your other creatures are somehow immune to at least 2 of the most common played removal:
    Mungoose: Push, Decay, Swords, Bolt
    TNN: Push, Decay, Swords, Bolt
    Mandrills: Push, Decay, Bolt
    Also Mandrills allows you to circumvent infinite blocks by opposing TNN's while "hating" opposing deathrite shamans. With that creature base you have very flexible tools for most common matchups

    2 Snare / 2 Pierce
    I choose this combination of additional counter as I think Snare is very well positioned right now and it handels a lot of the problematic spells for Canadian: Baleful Strix, Stoneforge, Tarmogoyf (not that common anymore but I snared more than one in my last 2 tournaments), Hymn to Tourach, Dark Confident...
    That said I think you also want at least 2 Pierces although the targets in some decks are not that great but same is true for Snare.
    While Snare shines in a lot of fair Matchups Pierce is a better choice for the unfair ones.

    Snare Pierce
    Czech Pile great crap
    Sneakshow crap great
    Grixis Delver few but fine targts lots but mediocre targts
    Death and Taxes fine crap
    So I will always prefer a mix of both to get the maximal flexibility.

    1 Dismember / 1 Forked Bolt / 1 Preordain
    I choose a forked bolt over the second dismember as in some Matchups paying 4 life is a big cost. Some people said it's not a problem as your mostly the aggressor anyways but most of these people also play goyf which changes how the deck works. I also liked the forked bolt as a way to clean up Mancer + token out of Grixis delver or Strix + Strix/Snapcaster against Czech pile. The Preordain is intended to be just a little bit of extra cantrip-glue which holds together the deck and ensures that you get the cards you need for this very situation. So the concept to be flexible continous here.

    What I didn't play
    Tarmogoyf
    In the current Meta (Czech Pile other BUGx Midrange decks) Goyf feels pretty lackluster as he gets removed pretty easy (all removals mentioned above except for Bolt). Also the number of TNN's at the moment is pretty high which brickwalls Goyf all day long. In the combo matchup the ability to cast Mandrills for G is also a nice plus as it allows you to keep more mana open for stifle/pierce/snare etc.
    That said I could definitly imagine a local meta where you want goyf! For example a lot of budget decks like Burn or Eldrazi where you need to close out the game fast. Goyf also allows you to play a more "Zoo-style" game with stuff like T1 Delver T2 Goyf T3 Goyf. That will definitly get you some free wins but in a format full of czech pile Goyf is pretty lackluster compared to mandrills.

    Probe
    Probe has always been controvers discussed in the Canadian community. Yes it's free information but how important is that? People always say "it helps you to choose what to counter" - yeah maybe but if you add probes your deck won't have much counter as you need to cut something and every probe is also partly land, creature and removal. The cost of 2 life can be a hefty cost in some matchups too, mostly Burn/Ur Delver. Drawn in the later turns it will show you what is in your opponents hand but just in that exact moment you cast it. The format is full of cantrips so seeing something like 1 Show and Tell, 2 Ponder, 1 Brainstorm, 2 lands won't help you much most of the time as their hand will look totally different after their next turn.

    Loam
    While one of the most powerful sideboard cards loam is not something I want in my maindeck. You can singlehandly lock some decks out with it but other decks won't be impressed much like Sneakshow, Storm, Burn etc. It's also a pretty slow engine and if you compare loam to the slowest and most narrow card in the deck - TNN you see TNN is, althogh hard to cast and slow, never dead. At least TNN will deal 3 damage a turn while loam without wasteland doesn't do much except for fuelling *****/Delve.

    Vendillion Clique
    3 Power flash disruption...sounds like a good deal at first glance but...
    ...it's 3 mana so you will most likely tap out so your stifle/pierce/snare (not that important as there are not much cmc2 flash/instants beside Snapcaster) are down
    ...it's fragile Clique is as easily handed as Delver but costs threetimes as much
    ...it's disruptive effect is overrated - yes you can put down one card but your opponent will draw a new one its not like thoughtseize it's just a cycle of your choice

    Sylvan library
    Similar to loam a pretty good sideboard card but also specific and slow.

    Chain lightning
    Burning out my opponent is not my plan A. I don't play burn. If you play Tarmogoyf I could understand that you want to go "full Zoo mode" but paired with a plan resolving around resilent threads you want to be able to remove stuff like Angler/Goyf and Strix as effective as possible.

    Counterspell
    I really love the card (7th edition foil <3) but leaving up 2 Mana is a hefty cost in the early game and my list has already TNN (to some extent Mandrills) as clunky card.



    Sideboard Coices to follow....

    Regards,

    Marius

  17. #2397

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Hi Marius,

    Thanks for the detailed write up! Just out of curiosity, what would your list look like if you ran the goyfs instead?

  18. #2398

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Thanks for the write up, Marius! Definitely curious to read about your sideboard choices!

  19. #2399

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    5-0'd an online League with this list the other day, but alas, it didnt get chosen to be publicized. :(

    Deck was gas, and still lots of fun to play. It might not have the raw power of Grixis, but no other deck really does.

    https://imgur.com/a/SnaG9

    Beat Storm, Mav, BUG Delver, New Miracles, and Sneak and Show.

  20. #2400

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    I've never really liked the idea of multiple probes in the deck. It does do some nice things (fuel thresh, add sorcery for goyf), but its always felt like there is too much "air" in the deck with the addition of any significant amount of probes (2 or more).

    Mana screw is a part of magic. No matter how many lands you play, or ways to hit land drops, it will happen. It does not happen at a significant enough rate to make any changes to the main deck.
    While I both trust your judgement and agree on the air-part, sometimes I keep a one-lander, which is totally acceptable, with a reactive card that i want to hold up mana for - Stifle versus fetchland decks, pierce and snare versus chalice-decks for example. I dont want to tap out incase these cards could become live (and if they do they sometimes wins you the game). Then I will just draw go, possibly eot BS or bolt, until i find another land. Probes would fill a double purpose in this situation: Dighibg through your deck faster without tappning out and teliing me wether holding up mana for said card is necessary.

    I guess I will start with 2 probes and see how it goes.

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