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Thread: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

  1. #2401

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by LewisCBR View Post
    5-0'd an online League with this list the other day, but alas, it didnt get chosen to be publicized. :(

    Deck was gas, and still lots of fun to play. It might not have the raw power of Grixis, but no other deck really does.

    https://imgur.com/a/SnaG9

    Beat Storm, Mav, BUG Delver, New Miracles, and Sneak and Show.
    Damn, those are some beefy goyfs

    Quote Originally Posted by JackaBo View Post
    While I both trust your judgement and agree on the air-part, sometimes I keep a one-lander, which is totally acceptable, with a reactive card that i want to hold up mana for - Stifle versus fetchland decks, pierce and snare versus chalice-decks for example. I dont want to tap out incase these cards could become live (and if they do they sometimes wins you the game). Then I will just draw go, possibly eot BS or bolt, until i find another land. Probes would fill a double purpose in this situation: Dighibg through your deck faster without tappning out and teliing me wether holding up mana for said card is necessary.

    I guess I will start with 2 probes and see how it goes.
    Yea, I understand where you are coming from. I have tried probe before, and for me at least, it rarely impacted the plays I was making. Just sort of like, "ok", and the information not particularly meaningful a few turns later.

    Say for example you probe and they have 3 fetches, and you have 1 stifle. Are you not going to stifle their fetch now? Or maybe they have no chalice when you probe, but can you really feel comfortable not holding pierce up since they could easily top deck a blood moon / chalice / ensnaring bridge / <you name it> etc.

    Nevertheless, I don't want to stifle (pun intended) your innovations or fun in MTG, so by all means, try out probes and see how they do for you, and let us know.

  2. #2402

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Ok so here is the missing part about the SB

    Sideboard:

    2 Submerge
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Sylvan Library
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Abrade
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Snapcaster Mage (Barcelona) / Compost (Hamburg)
    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Izzet Staticaster

    2 Submerge
    An Allstar against troublesome creatures - Knight of the Religuary, Tarmogoyf, Marit Large, whole Elves deck, etc. Beeing free provides a nice tempo boost but sadly the matchups Submerge shines are not that common at the moment so I could see cutting one.

    2 Red Blast Effects
    Great in the current meta dominated by Strix and Snapcaster also a clean out to TNN which is hard to deal otherwise. Split is choosen because I like the German FBB Red blasts :D Points could be made for Pyroblast to fuel ******** but some one could also argue about meddling mage, misdirection....I don't think it will make a difference.

    1 Sylvan Library
    My current choice as anti control weapon, not as powerful as winter orb but more flexible as you can bring it also against decks with manadorks like Czech pile or deathblade.

    2 Surgical Extraction
    While not that brutal like cage it's more flexible and has a nice synergy with the Snapcaster. Additional turn 0 interaction is also great against RB reanimator although the popularity of this deck dwindles at the moment.

    1 True-Name Nemesis
    An additional shroud thread to further push the "shroud only" plan against midrange and control decks.

    1 Abrade + 1 Ancient Grudge
    This split felt great as Grudge is more powerful but Abrade offers flexibilty. Especially against D&T Abrade shines as some of their draws don't inlcude any artefacts but spamming with random white dudes. Grudge on the other side is a smooth way to get rid of Vial+Equipment or 2 Strixes and can bring you back in games against stompy where you grudge their chalice + bridge etc.

    1 Spell Pierce + 2 Flusterstorm
    My additional "hard counter" for the combo matchups is fluster as it provides more flexibily than something like invasive surgery. Spell Pierce was primary meant to help against S&T and Stompy. Fluster can't hit Moon or sneak which makes me want a additional pierce in that matchup.

    1 Izzet Staticaster
    My mass removal of choice as it's easily capable of dominating the board against Elves or taxes while also helping against goblin tokens of ANT/TES. Yes you can remove it but even if it's hit by a sword eot you still tradet at least 2 for 1 as haste and flash makes it pretty scary for some decks especially if you untap with it.

    1 Snapcaster Mage (Barcelona) / Compost (Hamburg)
    Compost was a way to keep up on cards against pile or a additional hate versus storm. This worked out pretty nicely but I wanted an additional threat against combo so I choose Snapcaster. Sadly I drew him only once but he was pretty good in that very moment so.... Another factor was that with my boarding plan against czech pile they wouldn't have much targets for their decays so compost would die pretty fast so I choose to reduce the numer of targets even more.

    What I didn't play
    Pithing Needle:
    While very flexible and strong in some matchups I didn't see which common matchups I want it at the moment. Lands isn't that big at the moment so is D&T and against the most common decks (Pile,Grixis, BUG) it's not really useful.

    Invasive Surgery:
    On paper Surgery looks quite impressive (Counter + Surgical your Show and Tell?) but in reality you will rarely reach dilirium as most of the decks you want Surgery won't kill your creatures - Sneak Show / Storm / Miracles
    So in most matchups it's just envelope with a lot of flavor text which is fine but most probably not good enough.

    Rough//Tumble
    Pretty good against Elves as it's able to kill every Elve compared to Staticaster but can't touch strixes or flickerwisp which is a real drawback. Especially against Taxes you shouldn't underestimate that you bring in 2 TNN which get killed by your own rough / Tumble. Also 2 Mana seems a lot when your opponent hast Thalia and/or Port in play. Against Storm it's also pretty clunky (sorcery so they can flashback cabal after making goblins) and can't hit Xantid swarm which forces you to keep in more Bolts.

    Grim Lavamancer
    Similar to Staticaster Grim is able to dominate the board in a brutal way. It's woth a lot that he is able to kill shamans but sadly 4 Mungoose 2 Mandrills and Grim would be too reliant on the grave :(

    Winter Orb
    While pretty powerful in some Matchups (Miracles, 12 Post, Lands) none of these matchups is very common at the moment. Thats why I choose Sylvan library instead although I really love Winter orb.

    Sulfuric Vortex
    I don't see in which matchups you want these. In all matchups vortex shines orb is usually better.


    Of course there are a lot more sideboard options so I just covered the most common. Did I miss something? If yes let me know :)

    Regards,

    Marius

  3. #2403

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by koten View Post
    Hi Marius,

    Thanks for the detailed write up! Just out of curiosity, what would your list look like if you ran the goyfs instead?
    I think thats the last tournament I played with goyfs so I would start from this:

    http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21826&iddeck=167829

    But at this time Miracles and Eldrazi where big players so you have to tune the list for YOUR current meta - As you want to play goyfs it must be heavy on Eldrazi and burn so I would cut Dismembers for tarfire/seal of fire at least. But again I think in the current "international" meta the mandrills version is far superior.

    Regards
    Marius

  4. #2404
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Hi Marius, can you tell what you think about some SB options:
    1. electrickery - do we need that as an additional sweeper atm?
    2. sulfur elemental to answer DNT and mentor?
    3. Maybe to answer eldrazis we can use some Narnam Renegade?
    4. What do you think about Dead // Gone? With it problems whith big creatures can be solved. You can kill shaman or bounce marit lage sometimes or gurgag/tombstalker.
    5. Cursed Totem is still fine option for sb, but now maybe it is not that needed.
    6. Do we need Price of Progress to punish midrange and control decks now?

  5. #2405

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by MTB View Post
    [COLOR="#FF0000"]What I didn't play

    Rough//Tumble
    Pretty good against Elves as it's able to kill every Elve compared to Staticaster but can't touch strixes or flickerwisp which is a real drawback. Especially against Taxes you shouldn't underestimate that you bring in 2 TNN which get killed by your own rough / Tumble. Also 2 Mana seems a lot when your opponent hast Thalia and/or Port in play. Against Storm it's also pretty clunky (sorcery so they can flashback cabal after making goblins) and can't hit Xantid swarm which forces you to keep in more Bolts.
    Personally, i think a lot of the appeal to RUG is getting to play this one sided sweeper.

  6. #2406

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by LewisCBR View Post
    Personally, i think a lot of the appeal to RUG is getting to play this one sided sweeper.
    The problem is, what are you bringing it in against ? Deathrite is kill in sight. Mother of runes is kill on sight. There is little comeback potential for the card since youíre primarily 1 for 1ing or trying to be ahead on board. Itís even just mediocre against elves (all sorcery speed removal is mediocre vs them). Doesnít kill Leo or other big guys. Itís good in theory but the meta is not good foR it right now

  7. #2407

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    The problem is, what are you bringing it in against ? Deathrite is kill in sight. Mother of runes is kill on sight. There is little comeback potential for the card since youíre primarily 1 for 1ing or trying to be ahead on board. Itís even just mediocre against elves (all sorcery speed removal is mediocre vs them). Doesnít kill Leo or other big guys. Itís good in theory but the meta is not good foR it right now
    I think Rough is a huge trump vs any creature deck; Merfolk, Elves, D&T, Mav, etc, and I wouldnt call it mediocre versus any of that. I dont know, we've obviously had different experiences with the card, but traditionally, RUG doesnt get the luxury of running evasive/unstoppable damage like TNN and DRS. So, you have to clear the way, which makes other creature decks rather difficult to get through sometimes. Its not like the replacement cards the previous post listed out are 'Leovold killers'.

  8. #2408

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by LewisCBR View Post
    I think Rough is a huge trump vs any creature deck; Merfolk, Elves, D&T, Mav, etc, and I wouldnt call it mediocre versus any of that. I dont know, we've obviously had different experiences with the card, but traditionally, RUG doesnt get the luxury of running evasive/unstoppable damage like TNN and DRS. So, you have to clear the way, which makes other creature decks rather difficult to get through sometimes. Its not like the replacement cards the previous post listed out are 'Leovold killers'.
    I second this. The biggest deck currently, Grixis Delver, is actually quite succeptible to Rough/Tumble and I often times get a 2-for-1 when I play it. Sometimes I also get a ooze/mandrills attack in when they have an Angler out.

    On an unrelated note I can confirm that ground seal isn't that hot against DRS. I thought it would be a nice card to have, but you simply can't bring it in otd because the biggest boost DRS gives is on t2 where they wasteland/play leovold/whatever, ground seal only prevents that otp which is simply not enough for a sideboard card.
    I'm currently playing 2 Oozes in the sideboard. I don't like TNN since it's super expensive and EVERYBODY is prepared for it with -1/-1 effects/pyroblast/daze. Besides it goes badly with rough/tumble.
    The Scooze is just a really good card vs. all these fair decks, the life gain and the gy-hate gives the deck an additional, unexpected angle of attack imo. It's a bit like ground seal in that it's good against DRS/Snapcaster, but it has the upside that it's good on its own and advances our gameplan instead of being a situational answer. I like it against Delver, Elves, D&T, Burn, 4c-loam, Deathblade, even Miracles and just in general U/W control decks.

  9. #2409
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by LewisCBR View Post
    I think Rough is a huge trump vs any creature deck; Merfolk, Elves, D&T, Mav, etc, and I wouldnt call it mediocre versus any of that. I dont know, we've obviously had different experiences with the card, but traditionally, RUG doesnt get the luxury of running evasive/unstoppable damage like TNN and DRS. So, you have to clear the way, which makes other creature decks rather difficult to get through sometimes. Its not like the replacement cards the previous post listed out are 'Leovold killers'.
    I cast Tumble the other night against Aluren to kill double Baleful Strix and a Parasitic Strix. Wheeeee mana flood!

    Then I died with three lands in my hand. Six in play, three in my hand. Not where Thresh wants to be.

    That's a dumb aside but I also agree that I like the card. Actually, with Mongoose in the deck, beaing able to clear out late DRS + Snapcasters simultaneously so they can't shrink + chump is pretty nice. It's also good at finishing off Anglers that have chumped Goose or Mandrills.

  10. #2410

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by BeTeP View Post
    Hi Marius, can you tell what you think about some SB options:
    1. electrickery - do we need that as an additional sweeper atm?
    2. sulfur elemental to answer DNT and mentor?
    3. Maybe to answer eldrazis we can use some Narnam Renegade?
    4. What do you think about Dead // Gone? With it problems whith big creatures can be solved. You can kill shaman or bounce marit lage sometimes or gurgag/tombstalker.
    5. Cursed Totem is still fine option for sb, but now maybe it is not that needed.
    6. Do we need Price of Progress to punish midrange and control decks now?
    Not Marius but my opinions:
    1. I like Electrickery in most matchups where you would board in Rough/Tumble, this seems to be a personal preference thing
    2. Sulfur Elemental is okay but is a big metagame call because it's extremely narrow
    3. I have also considered Gnarlwood Dryad, the reason why I am not a big fan of this angle is that again it is very narrow (against Delver mirrors it is -okay- but do you really want it against anything else) and I don't like boarding in 1 mana cards as targeted hate vs a Chalice deck
    4. Three mana is a lot for an Unsummon and I am not sure if that is enough of an upside for a shock that can't go face, in matchups that you would board in this card is it better than Submerge?
    5. Falls under same umbrella as Sulfur Elemental: 'decent in the matchups you want it but those matchups aren't so much of the meta to warrant playing this'
    6. Possibly not the worst option vs those decks, you need to decide if you want to approach these matchups with a burn plan or a grind plan because it doesn't make too much sense to be boarding this in alongside Sylvan Library.

    With respect to rough/tumble discussion:
    - I mostly agree with Ryan that against decks like DNT/Delver you will be sad that you can't kill things on turn 1 with it, and agree with Marius on the downsides vs other matchups.
    - In general I don't like the fact that against decks where you want to Pyroclasm their creatures you also want TNN and this is an obvious nonbo.
    - Reading comments along the lines of "I like R/T because it gives me the option to 2-for-1 myself by attacking Mongoose into Angler" has caused my eyebrows to lodge in the ceiling. (I get that you can also sweep away a YP or a DRS at the same time but anytime you are attacking your goose into an Angler you are obviously telegraphing a burn spell so your opponent will always have the final decision on whether it's worth it for them to block or not).
    - LCBR's comment that 'we have no evasive damage like TNN so we need to sweep blockers' seems a bit disingenuous when nearly everybody has 2 TNN in the 75 (although your list doesn't so I guess I can see where you are coming from). But generally I feel that you can beat the small blockers by attacking into them with big dudes and you can't beat the big blockers with R/T anyway.
    - The only stated drawback I disagree with is that I don't agree with Ryan that it's suboptimal against Elves (Can you post how you SB for this MU?). But I think that other cards are good enough against this matchup that are also much better in other matchups that you don't need to play Rough/Tumble (or at most 1 copy) (e.g. Electrickery, Forked Bolt).

    Scooze is fine but I don't like that it dies to Bolt (if they have it immediately) AND Strix AND Swords AND Push so I wouldn't consider it a TNN alternative.
    I agree that TNN has drawbacks but I don't think there's a very good replacement. I think the closest comparison is maybe Troll Ascetic? Which is unpyroblastable and has 2 toughness but is still 3 mana (and needs double green).
    Jolrael's Centaur is also an amusing idea (Flanking lets you attack into Strix/Snapcaster/TNN/Thalia etc) but it's not very good at blocking and 2 power is pretty anemic (also double green again).
    Wilderness Elemental I think would be an interesting option if it had 4 toughness (Skyshroud War Beast is similar I guess).
    Similarly Scythe Tiger would maybe be interesting if it had at least 3 toughness but dying in combat to everything seems like it's not worth its ETB trigger.
    You can look to noncreature wincons/damage to fill this 'shroud' role but most of them are too slow (like Curse of the Pierced Heart or something) and/or cost 3+ mana anyway (Sulfuric Vortex)
    I guess the other option would be to approach these TNN matchups with a totally different sideboard plan but it seems like TNN covers too many different strategies for this to be effective.
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 11-10-2017 at 09:06 AM.

  11. #2411

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    When I say mediocre vs elves I mean it is sorcery speed and 2 mana

    In my experience when I've cast this card they typically bounce 2 things with quirion ranger / symbiote, then untap and play several things again

    And the good players won't walk into it anyways, and I generally find it hard to board sweepers in since our gameplan revolves around 1 for 1ing, the effect isn't redundant enough with only 2 cards in the 75 to reliably craft a game plan around.

    Minimally, I would board like this against elves

    -4 mongoose
    -1 Preordain
    +2 TNN
    +1 Vendilion Clique
    +1 Grafdigger's Cage
    +1 Seal of Fire

    I'm not sure if spell snare should be left in. Having a clean answer to visionary and scooze is nice (and GSZ for 1), but that is a small part of their deck. If Spell snare is bad, I would bring in 1 spell pierce + 1 flusterstorm for the snares.

  12. #2412

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I play elves, and saw the discussion, so I'll put on my side about Rough//Tumble

    The truth is, board wipes are overestimated usually against elves, it is true that usually against a good elf player you probably won't get more than 2-for-1, but I think if you have it in you SB you must play it. Not because it will blow out the elves plan, because it won't, but the tempo gain is huge. So usually a Rough//Tumble on an empty board by the RUG side is actually pretty bad and doesn't usually do much since you are also needing to bolt the early creatures, but a Rough when you have pressure like Delver and even more, it turns on ground pressure like Nimble, and that tempo gain is what can bring you the victory on the MU.

    I think Rough//Tumble against elves must be seen more as a tempo play than actually a board wipe, to set the game plan he has 1-2 turns back which can allow you to out tempo the deck.

  13. #2413

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Skyshroud war beast was a card i haven't seen before. That card is perhabs not so synergestic with waste/Stifle but very synergestic with winter orb. Not sure how good orb is when half the meta plays the black mana-dork. But an intriguing card, for sure

  14. #2414

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Raizen884 View Post
    I play elves, and saw the discussion, so I'll put on my side about Rough//Tumble

    The truth is, board wipes are overestimated usually against elves, it is true that usually against a good elf player you probably won't get more than 2-for-1, but I think if you have it in you SB you must play it. Not because it will blow out the elves plan, because it won't, but the tempo gain is huge. So usually a Rough//Tumble on an empty board by the RUG side is actually pretty bad and doesn't usually do much since you are also needing to bolt the early creatures, but a Rough when you have pressure like Delver and even more, it turns on ground pressure like Nimble, and that tempo gain is what can bring you the victory on the MU.

    I think Rough//Tumble against elves must be seen more as a tempo play than actually a board wipe, to set the game plan he has 1-2 turns back which can allow you to out tempo the deck.
    Thanks for chiming in with the Elves perspective!

    Quote Originally Posted by JackaBo View Post
    Skyshroud war beast was a card i haven't seen before. That card is perhabs not so synergestic with waste/Stifle but very synergestic with winter orb. Not sure how good orb is when half the meta plays the black mana-dork. But an intriguing card, for sure
    Obviously the card we are in need of is WHIRLING DERVISH...

  15. #2415

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    How do you guys approach the Delver mirror, especially grixis or BUG?

    I'm new to the deck and struggling with this part - it seems like we are the aggro, and that plan can work sometimes, but are there any good silver bullets in the board we could be bringing in?
    Don't recall, Don't imagine, Don't think, Don't examine, Don't control, Rest

  16. #2416

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by BeTeP View Post
    Hi Marius, can you tell what you think about some SB options:
    1. electrickery - do we need that as an additional sweeper atm?
    Although I really like it I think Staticaster is a better choice atm. Staticaster is much better against Elves and also against Taxes despite him beeing not able to handle a turn 1 Mother. Not beeing able to hit DRS or prelate/SFM is also a drawback but I think its on par with Rough//Tumble as it is able to hit T1 Mother, Flickerwisp, Strix but not SFM, Shaman etc.

    2. sulfur elemental to answer DNT and mentor?
    If your meta is very saturated with DNT I could see it but in a normal meta it's much to narrow for my taste.

    3. Maybe to answer eldrazis we can use some Narnam Renegade?
    Why would you board in Narnam Renegade when you could board in Goyf which seems far superior? Goyf won't die to chalice and can block more than once while also providing real offensive power.


    4. What do you think about Dead // Gone? With it problems whith big creatures can be solved. You can kill shaman or bounce marit lage sometimes or gurgag/tombstalker.
    I don't think it's a big issue that you can't go face with it but the unsommon part seems pretty expensive. I think it could be playable but I haven't tested it yet.

    5. Cursed Totem is still fine option for sb, but now maybe it is not that needed.
    Cursed Totem has the same problem as Sulfur Elemental, it's great in very few matchups - Lot's of Elves/Taxes/Maverick (that meta would be weird :D) go for it otherwise probably not.

    6. Do we need Price of Progress to punish midrange and control decks now?
    I prefer to use the "shroud plan" against midrange and control. Price is very anti synergistic with this plan (you need a lot of landdrops for TNN+protection) so I am not a fan. If you wan't to go the maximal aggression plan against midrange + Control why don't you simply play UR Delver?
    Quote Originally Posted by LewisCBR View Post
    I think Rough is a huge trump vs any creature deck; Merfolk, Elves, D&T, Mav, etc, and I wouldnt call it mediocre versus any of that. I dont know, we've obviously had different experiences with the card, but traditionally, RUG doesnt get the luxury of running evasive/unstoppable damage like TNN and DRS. So, you have to clear the way, which makes other creature decks rather difficult to get through sometimes. Its not like the replacement cards the previous post listed out are 'Leovold killers'.
    I don't think R/T is such a trump against Mervolk as it's pretty useless against TNN or all Merfolks if they got 2 lords out (or an untapped Vial @2). Same goes for Taxes they will protect one of their threats with mother or vial in Flickerwisp (which survives R/T) and your still not in the greatest spot. Against Elves they will expect it and bounce part of their board but you can swing through for at least 1 turn. So you can run evasive threads in TNN and Mandrills which will provide you the ability to go through Elves or Taxes chump blocker or tricks and you can use Staticaster / Grim to keep them under control.

    Quote Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi View Post
    How do you guys approach the Delver mirror, especially grixis or BUG?

    I'm new to the deck and struggling with this part - it seems like we are the aggro, and that plan can work sometimes, but are there any good silver bullets in the board we could be bringing in?
    Depends on your list and your oppnent. Against Grixis I wouldn't say you have to rush them - if you get the double delver nuts go for it but your threads are larger (except of Angler or Pyromancer if he completly goes of control) so I would focus on removing shamans, keeping Angler of the board and resolving the creatures they can't remove.
    BUG on the other side can be little bit more difficult as they run Goyf (sometimes STalker) but beside from that they struggle against mandrills and Submerge comes in handy here.
    Silver Bulltes:
    Life from the Loam - Manadenial them into oblivion but won't help you to come back if they already landed a thread (especially shamane)
    Submerge - Great at removing Goyfs - sadly useless against Grixis
    Mind Harmness - Old shool way to beat goyfs also useful against Aggro Loam, Maverick etc.
    Dismember - Helps you to kill Angler/Goyf but the lifeloss can be a pain if you play more than 2 (although the second already comes with a real cost)
    TNN - Can get you damage through while also blocking Angler / Goyf forever - I like. But against Grixis you have to be careful as Pyroblast is pretty good against TNN.
    Snare - Good against BUG (Goyf, Hymn) but against Grixis not so much.
    Tarmogoyf - An additional big thread against Grixis is nice but he really sucks against BUG as they can Push, Decay it.
    Roast - Another way to deal with Angler/Goyf although 2 mana sorcerys are easy targets for Flusterstorm.



    Regarding Scavenging ooze
    I would see him as Tarmogoyf #5 not as TNN. He is soft to all removals in the format and you don't have enough green sources to really abuse his potential. What is in the hand of your Czech pile opponent that won't kill Ooze? Push, Bolt, Decay and even K. Command (except you have at least one G open and your oppenent has no shamane) kills it. Same goes for UW control most of the time it's a better Grizzly bear as your opponent won't kill many of your creatures as Swords exiles and Terminus puts them under your library. Also Scooze seems pretty lackluster against decks like taxes where TNN shines as he blocks forever and can't be stalled by Thalia+Karakas or Mother nor can you sword him. So if you really wan't to go deep on the Goyf plan (Burn/Eldrazi) you could go for 1 Ooze in the board as he shines in those matchups but Goyf is also great here...

    Regards
    Marius

  17. #2417
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    First off, congrats to MTB and rlesko for their recent success with the deck. I have built this variant of Delver now and am trying to get better with it. Thank you both for taking the time to help us out in this thread.

    @Marius I have a few questions for you if you have any more time for these.

    -You mention siding out Delvers against Czech. What's generally the full SB plan vs this deck?
    -What's your general rule for siding out FoW? Against which decks do you absolutely not want any copies in all games of the match?
    -How do you pilot this deck against Storm? I was testing against Storm this weekend and just couldn't seem to win. With that said, I was probably not applying enough pressure and always trying to hold some sort of counter magic that eventually got picked off with targeted discard.
    -rlesko mentions a SB plan (for his build) against Blade decks of +2 TNN, +2 Ancient Grudge, +2 Pyroblast, +2 Winter Orb -4 Stifle, -3 Tarmogoyf, -1 Preordain. How would yours look? Also, have you found it good to side out Stifles in this matchup?
    -You mentioned maybe cutting a Submerge. If you did that, do you know which card you would use as replacement?

    Thanks!

  18. #2418

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by biglongjohns View Post
    -You mention siding out Delvers against Czech. What's generally the full SB plan vs this deck?
    Against Czech Pile I usually board like this:
    +2 rebs
    +1 snapcaster
    +1 staticaster
    +1 abrade
    +1 grudge
    +1 fluster
    +1 library

    -4 delver
    -1 fow
    -1 daze
    -1 stifle
    -1 pierce

    The Delvers are sided out as close to all cards in their deck can handle it - Push, Strix, REB, Command, Decay....
    The other cuts are balanced out as all these cards are good but not fantastic. MVP in your maindeck is Snare as it's a clean way to deal with Strix and Snapcaster. So you see my plan resolves around the "untouchable" creatures and loadin up on permission as hard as possible. If I see in game 2 that my opponent sided out the removal for Delver, in anticipation of my "shroud plan", I could see boarding them in again.

    Quote Originally Posted by biglongjohns View Post
    -What's your general rule for siding out FoW? Against which decks do you absolutely not want any copies in all games of the match?
    There's no Deck you will side out all. If you side out too much forces (or dazes or a combination) the deck won't work anymore. You need the tempo boost the free spells offer. However you can side out 1-2 forces against some midrange decks or in the Delver mirrors if they don't have critical plays like Knight etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by biglongjohns View Post
    -How do you pilot this deck against Storm? I was testing against Storm this weekend and just couldn't seem to win. With that said, I was probably not applying enough pressure and always trying to hold some sort of counter magic that eventually got picked off with targeted discard.
    You need a good combination of pressure and disruption to get a chance. It's tough before boarding but depending on your Sideboard G2/3 can get much easier as you get rid of cards like Dismember or TNN.
    I board something like this:
    +2 Surgicals
    +2 Flusterstorm
    +1 Snapcaster/Compost
    +1 Izzet Staticaster
    +1 REB
    +1 Spell Pierce
    -1 Dismember
    -1 Forked Bolt
    -1 TNN
    -2 Nimble Mungoose
    -2 Bolts
    -1 Tropical

    If you want silverbullts for this matchup you could consider the following
    Mana Maze - Pretty narrow but very powerful as it's really hard to go of through this....also nice vs. Burn and Elves
    Grafedigger's Cage - Offers permanent Grave hate but is slower than Surgical and has a dissynergy with Snapcaster
    Compost - He goes off - You draw your deck you should be able to get some counter at some point....
    Null Rod - Shuts down the easiest way to get hellbend for them also pretty good VS Taxes and some random decks

    One last note - Don't try to hold Stifle for the stormtrigger they will use a PIF loop and flashback the discard. The idea to catch a stormtrigger with stifle is a smiliar good idea like stopping a tank with a club.

    Quote Originally Posted by biglongjohns View Post
    -rlesko mentions a SB plan (for his build) against Blade decks of +2 TNN, +2 Ancient Grudge, +2 Pyroblast, +2 Winter Orb -4 Stifle, -3 Tarmogoyf, -1 Preordain. How would yours look? Also, have you found it good to side out Stifles in this matchup?
    With riesko's list I would side similar as I feel Stifle is the weakest disruption in this matchup if you play a goyf list.
    I would side something like:
    + 2 REB
    +1 Sylvan library
    +1 Abrade
    +1 TNN
    (+1 Spell Pierce - against Jeskai)
    (+2 Fluster - against Esper)

    -4 Delver (I think Mandrills is better here as he can ignore REB (if Jeskai), Push (if Esper), Decay (if Deathblade) and TNN.
    (-1 Dismember - leave in vs Deathblade)
    (-1 Stifle - against Jeskai)
    (-2 Spell Pierce - against Esper&Deathblade)

    Maybe I would side in the grudge for one Daze or Stifle. Against Deathblade I probably would side out Pierces and against Esper I would change the Pierces to Flusters. However against Jeskai I would keep the pierces for Bloodmoon.

    Quote Originally Posted by biglongjohns View Post
    -You mentioned maybe cutting a Submerge. If you did that, do you know which card you would use as replacement?
    I would make these changes based on your meta. You could add silver bullts or cards with a wider application - third REB comes to my mind.


    Regards,

    Marius

  19. #2419
    freebird
    biglongjohns's Avatar
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Thank you so much for taking the time to write these responses! It was all very helpful.

  20. #2420

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by biglongjohns View Post
    Thank you so much for taking the time to write these responses! It was all very helpful.
    +1
    Very thorough. Thanks Marius!

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