Re: Miracles
Postboard I am more reluctant to Stifle a Miracle trigger, because it puts you down a card and the games tend to go very long where your opponent is likely to find a way to Brainstorm it back and/or just get to 6 mana and hardcast it.
A more useful application for Stifle in g2/3 against Miracle is to counter a Snapcaster trigger, also remember you can Stifle the Portent draw on upkeep just to 1-for-1 the opponent. (EDIT: Miracles players also often use EE as an answer for Nimble Mongoose)
Since the Divining Top days I have fewer Orb to board in so I end up keeping some bolts in order to have outs to a resolved Mentor
In my experience quite a few Miracles players are trying Azcanta now, which means that Wasteland becomes much more useful than it was in the past (where it was still fine just to pressure your opponent's mana because they were unlikely to draw only basics).
Using my list
50 Stock
4 Tarmo
2 Seal of Fire
2 Snare
1 Pierce
1 Preordain
1 Loam
1 Barbarian Ring
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Blast
1 Winter Orb
2 Grudge
2 TNN
2 Surgical
1 Honden of Infinite Rage
1 Pierce
1 Forked Bolt
-4 Tarmogoyf
-2 Seal of Fire
-4 Delver of Secrets
-2 Bolt
+2 TNN
+3 Red Blast
+1 Winter Orb
+1 Loam
+1 Barbarian Ring
+1 Pierce
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Honden
This is what I am on at the moment
Not 100% sure about the 2nd Surgical
Re: Dack Fayden
a 3 mana PW is something that I would be interested in a few matchups, but it needs to be something that is generically threatening on its own and I don't think Dack does this well enough. I have thought about Domri Rade or the UGX Nissa but the problem with these two is that in matchups where a PW would be good you are often boarding some number of your creatures out (and therefore it's too hard to get an advantage from these).
I mean sure, sometimes a Stifle on terminus isnt worth it, but sometimes it wins the game.
Playing winter orb makes this matchup so much better.
Hi,
I would board like this:
-4 Delver
-2 mandrills
-1 dismember
-1 forked
+1 library
+2 reb
+1 pierce
+2 fluster
+1 tnn
+1 snapcaster
Lately I wasn't that happy with snapcaster and I am looking for something else for that slot. If your meta is saturated with miracles you could use orb but I think the matchup is good even without orbs.
Regards
Marius
For the Orb slot in my SB I wanted a card that's good against control matchups like Miracles and CP.
I guess another option for me would be to include another counterspell instead (I have 3 REB 0 Fluster 1 Pierce compared to your 2/2/1) which also makes combo matchups slightly more favourable, but at the moment I think Orb is good in enough matchups that I'm ok with having 1 copy.
Is there a discord group for RUG or any other resources online?
I am going to start testing a Pithing Needle in the place of Snapcaster Mage. Here is my reasoning:
- Low mana cost so it fits the deck well
- DRS decks where you side it in will usually side out Pierces
- Can shut off DRS but can also shut off fetch lands in corner cases, forcing your opponent to fetch into Stifle
- Opponents will have no artifact hate (aside from the small amount of Decay still around)
Plus, it can most of the time serve as a direct swap against the decks where we were already siding Snapcaster: Portent Miracles, BG Depths, Lands, Sneak & Show, Blade Decks...and most importantly DRS decks.
I played in a local 1k yesterday (78 people) and went 4-2-1
Burn 2-1
Sneak and Show 2-0
Game 1 I started with Moongoose beats and put in a Tarmogoyf off S&T. Stifle Emrakul's annihilator trigger and swing back with bolt to finish. :)
UWR Stoneblade 2-1
Czech Pile 1-2
Death and Taxes 1-1-1
BUG Stiflenaught 2-1
Grixis Faeries 1-2
List:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Chain Lightning
1 Dismember
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
SB:
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Winter Orb
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Seal of Fire
2 Submerge
Shardless
BUG Delver
List:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Chain Lightning
1 Dismember
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
SB:
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Winter Orb
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Seal of Fire
2 Submerge
[/QUOTE]
How did you feel about the lack of goyf growers in the main? What happened in the Czech match up? I feel like I don't know how to play that match up.
In my experience playing an almost exact 75 is the Czech Pile matchup is all about clearing out Baleful Strix and getting there with Mongoose. You need to try and just bait out as much removal as you can with Delver and Goyf. Play around Diabolic Edict as much as possible to protect your goose.
Post-board gets a lot easier since you get to play 6 shroud threats with TNN and Winter Orb/Pierce do work.
I just won the Saturday 'Big Prize Legacy' side event at GP Singapore.
2-1 RB Reanimator
2-0 BUG Crane Aluren
2-1 RGb Charbelcher
2-0 Azcanta Miracles
2-0 Eldrazi Post
List was the same as my most recent suggestion (first time I have played this in an actual event) (as opposed to cockatrice '2 man queues' kappa)
4 Goyf
4 Goose
4 Delver
4 Force
4 Daze
4 Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
1 Preordain
1 Pierce
2 Snare
2 Seal of Fire
3 Volcanic
3 Tropical
4 Wasteland
8 Fetches
SB
1 Winter Orb
1 Pierce
2 Surgical
2 Grudge
3 Pyroblast
1 Honden of Infinite Rage
2 TNN
1 Forked Bolt
1 Loam
1 Barbarian Ring
Notable plays/lessons
- In 5 Rounds Stifle hit 2 Snaps, 1 EE, at least 3 fetchlands, 1 Charbelcher, 1 Animate Dead, 1 Glint Nest Crane
- I won a game against RB when my opponent had Griselbrand in play (by blocking with Delver and then shooting it with Seal of Fire to prevent the lifegain, and Stifling his follow up Animate Dead to kill him on the swingback).
- I punted game 1 against Charbelcher where my opponent is basically topdecking with Charbelcher and 1 Mox in play vs my Aberration, and played a 2nd Mox. I reasoned that because I had already destroyed both his lands I would be able to save my counter for whatever his last mana source was going to be (I was particularly afraid of him drawing LED if I counter the mox) but of course his deck is playing 8 Spirit Guides so I died immediately.
- Game 3 I kept a 6 card hand of 1 FoW and 5 blue cards, my opponent Probed me to see my 1 FoW and plays Xantid Swarm, which I basically have to FoW, then before my opponent tries to go off I topdeck a 2nd FoW and counter his Seething Song for a pretty big blowup.
- Honden was insane G2 against Miracles, it killed 2 Snapcaster, 1 Monk token, and dealt my opponent like 10-15 damage. The only creature I cast all game was 1 TNN which immediately got killed by Supreme Verdict, all I had to do was protect the Honden (he tried to kill it with CJ, EE, AND Wear/Tear) and that was enough to win the game. Near the end of the game when I extracted his Mentors he had 2 Swords and 1 Terminus in his hand
- Recently against all my Miracles opponents they have no real win conditions (snapcaster beatdowns lul) game 2 if you can extract their Mentors. I'm not saying you should aim for this all the time, but Surgical is playable in the matchup anyway vs Snapcaster/Terminus, so you should value this play more highly than in the Top era when the opponent typically had 1-2 Entreat
- Regarding the Goyf/Mandrills split, Goyf was clearly the best choice for this event. Didn't see any Push, my Goyf did get Decayed once but I had both Delver and Goyf in play anyway and it was a pretty close decision which one my opponent wanted to target. It may have helped me race in the combo matchups (wasn't trying to think about that too much at the time), and if I didn't have 4 Goyf in the Eldrazi matchup I think it's highly likely I would have lost. I wouldn't even say my matchups were weird for the meta because there were at least 2 more RB reanimator players and 1 other Eldrazi Post player in a tournament with like ~25 people, the number of 'fair decks' didn't seem to be very high. Maybe you can argue that at a big Eternal-Weekend-style event (where more people are likely to be playing Underground Sea) Mandrills is better but I'm not totally convinced of this (as per my post on the last page).
[edit, page 119, I'm clearly a bit behind haha]
I think this list is very good, in the SB I might want to either -1 Pyroblast or -1 Winter Orb for +1 Pierce or +1 Flusterstorm. Against the combo decks without Pyroblast targets I feel a bit light on interaction.
Why play Honden of Infinite Rage when you could instead run Curse of the Pierced Heart?
Edit: oh, I see that you can target creatures with the Honden. That's actually pretty tech, I was thinking you were running it as just a single-sided Sulfuric Vortex.
That said, CotPH stacks and could be used as a potential alt-win condition against control decks that have tons of creature removal or methods of preventing you from profitably attacking. It's less versatile than Bitterblossom in some ways, and obviously on it's own is slower than the aforementioned Sulfuric Vortex, but perhaps it's worth considering if UWr Miracles or similar decks become a real problem.
Last edited by wcm8; 12-18-2017 at 10:54 AM.
Never underestimate streamlining the deck and playing big dumb beaters Congrats kombatkiwi!
I saw a list doing well that's running 4 copies of Chart a Course, 2/2 split between main and SB. Seems easy enough to enable as a straight-ahead Draw 2 for 2. Has anyone had much experience with this card in RUG or a similar deck?
A book about the dark side of Legacy: "Magic: The Addiction" // Conversations with Magic players: "Humans of Magic"
There was a similar event on day2 which I played with the same list to a semi-flop result
R1 2-0 Eldrazi Post (same guy)
R2 1-1-0 Miracles (same guy)
R3 "0-2" Grixis Delver (Result of games played was 1-1-1 but I was paired up after my draw in round 2 (my opponent had 6 points rather than 4). Under the prize payout for the event a 2nd draw was essentially a loss so I just conceded.
R4 0-2 Moon Stompy (In game 2 my opponent was on 1 life when he stabilized and I had like 5 turns to topdeck ANY land so I could cast Honden and kill him but I didn't find one)
R5 "0-2" Rector Fit (I got paired up again so now with my record I don't get any different amount of prize even if I win the match, but my opponent is guaranteed more prize if he wins so I concede immediately. We play to 1-1 but don't get into G3 because his wife confiscates him.)
I would argue that both me and Miracles guy played at a reasonable (albeit not lightning-fast) pace and that it would be hard to claim that one player was more at fault than the other, although we both should have probably been trying to play faster (also, the way the matchup works every game goes for like 20 turns).
The Grixis Delver player was a fucking snail and after I called him out for tanking like 1min+ on whether he wanted to cast Therapy or not (on turn 2, after seeing my whole hand with probe) he got pretty belligerent so I just dropped it.
At the end of game 3 I was at a very low life total but he had already used 3 of his bolts and I had Loam/Waste/Ring going and destroyed all his lands, so I think I probably would have won.
The game against the Moon dude reinforced my thoughts of wanting another Spell Pierce
lol dude,
i was the sneak show player at the same touranment who share the points with you and the other guy for a case of ixalan booster.
Pretty tickled by my miracles friend who said he was gonna quit magic if he was ever gonna let Honden of infinite rage resolve again. That's how bad you tramutised him lol.
Is a tarfire strictly better than a 2nd seal of fire? Probably 2nd spell pierce in mainboard would be safer than a preordain in the combo meta of the tourney. I was wandering whether you have considered a 3/1 or a 2/2 splilt between tamogofy/hooting mantrils prior to the touranment?
@kombatkiwi: Congratz! Really like the 2 seal of fires, the fact that they can't be removed by drs seems like a major advantage paired with the fact that you get 5/6 goyfs against Eldrazi and Anglers in the maindeck.
Yeah I agree 2 Pierce main would have probably been a good decision, that is still always an option.
You can play 1 Seal 1 Tarfire if you want
Pros for 2 Seal
- Seal doesn't get eaten by DRS and there is a reasonable chance of not finding the 1 copy of seal and the Tarfire getting exiled
- I think Seal is a slightly better removal spell than Shock (it's better vs things like Thalia or Eidolon of the Great Revel, etc and you can play it whenever you feel you can spend mana to gain tempo later on, e.g. you play Seal turn 1 on the play and if your opponent plays DRS turn 1 on the draw then they can't protect it with Daze)
Pros for 1-1 Seal/Tarfire
- Tarfire can flip Delver
- If you have both of them in the graveyard it pumps Goyf twice
It's such a small % decision either way but I think I like 2 Seal.
I haven't considered playing a split of Hooting Mandrills and Tarmogoyf, I can't think of a strong argument not to do this but I think Tarmogoyf is better at the moment. (Additionally, if you play fewer copies of Tarmogoyf the decision to play Seal of Fire instead of e.g. Chain Lightning becomes worse)
Last edited by kombatkiwi; 12-21-2017 at 01:32 AM.
How come no one considers Cryptic Serpent? Has anyone tested it? On paper it seems better then Tarmo (its bigger and dodges most removal, also pitches to Fow) or Mandrils (better sinergy with threshold).
5/6 is better than 6/5, but the main reason why I think this card is not good is that it's just way harder to cast than it seems at first. Sometimes it's annoying having to wait to fill up your graveyard for Mandrills, and Serpent isn't even fueled by wastes or fetches.
It could be okay but I think you would need to play some copies of Probe or Thought Scour, and its consistent large size isn't much better than Tarmo (it also gets blanked by RIP). As we mentioned a few pages ago pitching to force is a plus for Serpent but this also means it dies to Pyroblast.
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