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Thread: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

  1. #2461

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Hey guys, I've been playing RUG Delver for the past few months with this list and I'm absolutely sold on Spell Snare. It counters all the big problems for this deck; Rest in Peace, Thalia, Stoneforge, Jitte, Baleful Strix, etc.

    Creatures - 11
    4 Nimble Mongoose
    4 Delver of Secrets
    3 Tarmogoyf

    Spells - 31
    4 Force of Will
    4 Daze
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Stifle
    1 Preordain
    1 Chain Lightning
    1 Forked Bolt
    2 Spell Pierce
    2 Spell Snare

    Lands - 18
    3 Polluted Delta
    3 Flooded Strand
    2 Wooded Foothills
    3 Volcanic Island
    3 Tropical Island
    4 Wasteland

    Sideboard
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Winter Orb
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Destructive Revelry
    1 Null Rod
    2 True-Name Nemisis
    1 Vendilion Clique
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Sulfur Elemental
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Submerge
    "The enemy is getting too close! Quick! Inflate the toad!"

  2. #2462

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    5/6 is better than 6/5, but the main reason why I think this card is not good is that it's just way harder to cast than it seems at first. Sometimes it's annoying having to wait to fill up your graveyard for Mandrills, and Serpent isn't even fueled by wastes or fetches.

    It could be okay but I think you would need to play some copies of Probe or Thought Scour, and its consistent large size isn't much better than Tarmo (it also gets blanked by RIP). As we mentioned a few pages ago pitching to force is a plus for Serpent but this also means it dies to Pyroblast.
    Serpent dying to REB is also a big downside

  3. #2463

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Serpent is absolutely unplayable in this deck, regardless of what it dies to. It could have shroud and be uncounterable it would still be unplayable. It isn't doing anything that synergizes with what "Canadian Thresh" is doing.

  4. #2464
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    It could have shroud and be uncounterable it would still be unplayable.
    Eh, let's not get crazy here -- obviously it's a moot point since it's neither of those, but I would *absolutely* play Serpent in Delver decks (and possibly other deck types as well) if it had the additions of Hexproof and Uncounterable. At that point you could probably drop Tarmogoyf and/or Mongoose in place of it and maybe consider running some Thoughtscour to help rush it out earlier. A 6/5 for essentially just UU that has hexproof and uncounterable is *insane*, and achieving 5 spells in the graveyard is easy given the deck's configuration. Players have had some success running Bedlam Reveler without having to entirely retool the basic structure of a Delver deck, so this really would be no different.

    I also disagree with the comment that a 5/6 is better than a 6/5. This is true in creature matchups where there's 5/5's involved, e.g. Eldrazi. But given the ubiquity of self-inflicted life loss in Legacy (via Force, fetches, Probe, Ancient Tomb, Dismember, etc.), very often an opponent will be at 18 or less life by the time you start attacking them. In this scenario, a 6/5 presents a 3-turn clock versus the 4-turn clock of 5/6. Just worth noting in case a playable 6-power creature is introduced to the Legacy card-pool.

    Anyways, I agree with the general sentiment about running Seal of Fire in lists running 3-4 copies of Tarmogoyf. Goyf is still a monstrous clock, and he's excellent in a metagame full of Eldrazi and Grixis Delver. However if you expect to face more 4C control, it's arguable that Hooting Mandrills may be the better threat since it dodges Fatal Push and can push damage through their blockers.

    I also agree with running some copies of Spell Snare in RUG -- back when I was playing this deck almost exclusively, I ran the full playset and it hardly ever got sided out except against Sneak and Show and a few other random decks without many/any valid targets. It's just so good at mitigating the disadvantage of being on the draw, and it tends to be cards costing 2 that most frequently present the biggest problems for RUG, e.g. Chalice on 1, Thalia, Strix, opposing Goyfs, Stoneforge Mystic, Counterbalance etc. it's also excellent having a hard counter as the game goes on. Often you'll be able to deal with cards costing 3+ thanks to your soft counters and mana denial strategy; it really seems like Snare is patching up a weaker "blind spot" for the deck.

    Aside from Honden, has there been any new tech singletons in the sideboard? Has anyone liked the versatility of Abrade, or is Ancient Grudge still just way better for RUG? And lastly, any comments on Chart a Course in RUG?

  5. #2465

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by wcm8 View Post
    Eh, let's not get crazy here -- obviously it's a moot point since it's neither of those, but I would *absolutely* play Serpent in Delver decks (and possibly other deck types as well) if it had the additions of Hexproof and Uncounterable. At that point you could probably drop Tarmogoyf and/or Mongoose in place of it and maybe consider running some Thoughtscour to help rush it out earlier. A 6/5 for essentially just UU that has hexproof and uncounterable is *insane*, and achieving 5 spells in the graveyard is easy given the deck's configuration. Players have had some success running Bedlam Reveler without having to entirely retool the basic structure of a Delver deck, so this really would be no different.

    Hyperbole aside, I do think the restriction of instant / sorcery (as opposed to delving) is absolutely prohibitive in playing the card, regardless of the potential upside. But not worth discussing hypotheticals even further.

    I also disagree with the comment that a 5/6 is better than a 6/5. This is true in creature matchups where there's 5/5's involved, e.g. Eldrazi. But given the ubiquity of self-inflicted life loss in Legacy (via Force, fetches, Probe, Ancient Tomb, Dismember, etc.), very often an opponent will be at 18 or less life by the time you start attacking them. In this scenario, a 6/5 presents a 3-turn clock versus the 4-turn clock of 5/6. Just worth noting in case a playable 6-power creature is introduced to the Legacy card-pool.

    You're spot on here. Not sure who said 5/6 > 6/5 or how far back, but I 100% agree with this logic. Actually I have played weird games against miracles in the past where my goyf was a 6/7 and they were >15 life but <19 (for the exact reasons you've provided - fetches / forces) and able to win with short amount of time left

    I also agree with running some copies of Spell Snare in RUG -- back when I was playing this deck almost exclusively, I ran the full playset and it hardly ever got sided out except against Sneak and Show and a few other random decks without many/any valid targets. It's just so good at mitigating the disadvantage of being on the draw, and it tends to be cards costing 2 that most frequently present the biggest problems for RUG, e.g. Chalice on 1, Thalia, Strix, opposing Goyfs, Stoneforge Mystic, Counterbalance etc. it's also excellent having a hard counter as the game goes on. Often you'll be able to deal with cards costing 3+ thanks to your soft counters and mana denial strategy; it really seems like Snare is patching up a weaker "blind spot" for the deck.

    Are people cutting snares from their lists now? This is absolutely crazy to me. I only play 2 but would love to play more. The card is so insane in this deck. Theres no worse feeling than forcing a snapcaster mage or bolting a baleful strix.

    Aside from Honden, has there been any new tech singletons in the sideboard? Has anyone liked the versatility of Abrade, or is Ancient Grudge still just way better for RUG? And lastly, any comments on Chart a Course in RUG?

    I tested abrade in the sideboard a little bit, I wished it was a grudge every. single. damn. time. It is my opinion that it is a main deck card in delver that doesn't want to be totally cold to resolved artifacts. Its a sideboard card in combo decks where you can consolidate being able to kill hatebears / ensnaring bridges / chalices with the same card. If the card could deal 3 damage to a player I would probably play it main deck though.

    When Chart was spoiled I was convinced this card would make its way into RUG delver. After thinking about it , tapping 2 mana sorcery speed is just not really what we want to be doing most of the time, especially if we just attacked with a creature. If we are attacking, we want to use our mana to disrupt our opponent / protect our own things. And while drawing cards is nice, I don't think this card quite makes the cut.

    Last edited by rlesko; 12-22-2017 at 07:24 PM.

  6. #2466
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I did a fair bit of testing with running 3 copies of Chart a Course in RUG. I actually think the card is fantastic. In the early game you won't be casting it, instead holding up mana for counterspells, killing threats and deploying your own creatures. But then once you're just about empty, Chart gives you an effective way of pulling ahead. And even if you don't have a creature to attack with, frequently you'll be able to afford dumping an extra land or other irrelevant card.

    I've always been a fan of Sylvan Library in RUG, and perhaps 1 still warrants a slot in the SB, but Chart fills a similar function but with several very relevant advantages: flips Delver, is Blue for Force, builds up the yard for Mongoose (or Mandrills if you're running them), doesn't cost life to draw cards, immediately replaces itself and draws an extra card, and is more useful in multiples.

    I think anyone who is dubious about Chart's power in RUG really ought to give it a fair shake and test out 2-3 copies. I think you'll very quickly find that in practice it's a really powerful card and a welcome addition to a deck that's severely lacking in forms of card advantage. Yes there are plenty of theoretical reasons why it might seem mediocre or weak, but seriously, just test it. It feels somewhat akin to the Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time era -- and in a sense it's a bit like a hybrid toned-down (but still powerful) version of those two cards.

    Perhaps needless to say, Chart's also good in other Delver decks. I'm sure it's similarly powerful in other creature decks playing Blue, e.g. infect. And perhaps it may also find a place in Modern.

    You heard it here first folks: I'm making the prediction that Chart a Course will catch on in Legacy Delver decks in a very serious way in the not-so-distant future. It's already been showing up in successful UR Delver lists and a few spotting here and there in RUG lists. Give it a little time and it'll probably be near ubiquitous.

  7. #2467
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by wcm8 View Post
    I did a fair bit of testing with running 3 copies of Chart a Course in RUG.
    Well could you please elaborate a bit more ?

    Because 2 or 3 slots is not an easy thing to include, especially in RUG where the list is already pretty tight.

    Cheers,

    Ralf

  8. #2468
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    The list I tested, which could be further modified per local meta considerations:

    8 fetch
    3 Volcanic
    3 tropical
    4 Wasteland

    4 Delver
    4 mongoose
    4 goyf

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3 Chart a course

    4 force of will
    4 daze
    3 Spell Snare
    2 Spell pierce

    4 L Bolt
    2 seal of fire

    As previously mentioned, Seal is there as a way to make Goyf a fairly reliable 5/6. I tested a bunch of times against Grixis Delver and a few other tier decks and felt quite favored. Chart is a huge help. Note that I cut stifle completely as I feel it is not an essential card for RUG's success, but actually given how common RUG plays stifle you often get the advantage of opponents still playing around it.

  9. #2469

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by wcm8 View Post
    The list I tested, which could be further modified per local meta considerations:

    8 fetch
    3 Volcanic
    3 tropical
    4 Wasteland

    4 Delver
    4 mongoose
    4 goyf

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3 Chart a course

    4 force of will
    4 daze
    3 Spell Snare
    2 Spell pierce

    4 L Bolt
    2 seal of fire

    As previously mentioned, Seal is there as a way to make Goyf a fairly reliable 5/6. I tested a bunch of times against Grixis Delver and a few other tier decks and felt quite favored. Chart is a huge help. Note that I cut stifle completely as I feel it is not an essential card for RUG's success, but actually given how common RUG plays stifle you often get the advantage of opponents still playing around it.
    This list looks sweet. I think it is a right direction in a fair meta. The pure tempo route is increasingly difficult to get the job done with more effecient answers like push and decay printed in recent year.

    Seal of fire is good, but one drawback is unable to flip a delver. Would a tarfire to split them 1:1 an option?

  10. #2470
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jsang View Post
    Seal of fire is good, but one drawback is unable to flip a delver. Would a tarfire to split them 1:1 an option?
    Yeah, I suppose if you wanted to you could do a 1/1 split. And occasionally you'll be glad to have your Delver flip and very rarely have both cards in the yard to support 6/7 Goyfs. But statistically speaking, it's rare that either scenario would occur enough to make a huge difference... but what *does* seem quite relevant now is 1) having a card that can't be touched by unanswered Deathrite Shamans, and 2) occasionally being able to generate a kind of tempo by pre-emptively casting a removal spell in advance of a threat for it to answer, thus opening up mana later.

    It's also worth noting how good Seal can be against a deck like D&T. You don't know for sure whether they'll be casting an Aether Vial or Mother of Runes on Turn 1 (if anything), so you'll still be able to deploy Seal to eventually answer a creature regardless of their early play. It's also particularly helpful against Thalia since you'll sidestep the issue of needing to pay an extra .

  11. #2471
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    For those of you playing Tarmogoyf, how much worse it the Czech Pile matchup with Goyf as opposed than more difficult to answer threats? I have been playing with 4 Delver, 4 Goose, 2 Mandrills, 1 TNN for a little bit now and am wondering if playing Goyfs to improve the Grixis Delver matchup is worth sacrificing your pile matchup by however much adding Goyf makes the Pile matchup worse. So my question is really how is the Czech Pile matchup with Goyf? Are we favoured, unfavoured or is it even?
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilkin View Post
    I tap all 5 of my lands on my turn. He's like....OMG not Shriekmaw. I land Batterskull. He's like. Ok sure. LOL, not very often someone is more happy to see Batterskull then a Shriekmaw.
    ______________________________________
    The patient Brainstormer always wins.

  12. #2472

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheManWithaPlan View Post
    For those of you playing Tarmogoyf, how much worse it the Czech Pile matchup with Goyf as opposed than more difficult to answer threats? I have been playing with 4 Delver, 4 Goose, 2 Mandrills, 1 TNN for a little bit now and am wondering if playing Goyfs to improve the Grixis Delver matchup is worth sacrificing your pile matchup by however much adding Goyf makes the Pile matchup worse. So my question is really how is the Czech Pile matchup with Goyf? Are we favoured, unfavoured or is it even?
    Most pile players at my LGS play bolt instead of push. Maybe one push, one edict main. Dont know if that's common out there.. but I have had good results versus pile.
    I go delverless versus them since goyf is hard to deal with as is. If they played 4 push i would rather keep the delvers (for the busted double delver start) and board out goyfs.

  13. #2473

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheManWithaPlan View Post
    For those of you playing Tarmogoyf, how much worse it the Czech Pile matchup with Goyf as opposed than more difficult to answer threats? I have been playing with 4 Delver, 4 Goose, 2 Mandrills, 1 TNN for a little bit now and am wondering if playing Goyfs to improve the Grixis Delver matchup is worth sacrificing your pile matchup by however much adding Goyf makes the Pile matchup worse. So my question is really how is the Czech Pile matchup with Goyf? Are we favoured, unfavoured or is it even?
    I wouldn't say that Goyf helps the Grixis Matchup that much as I feel the Apes are similar good. Some Grixis lists run 1-2 pushes between main and side and edict handles Goyfs and Monkys alike. Besides that Mandrills are much better against Pyromancer as they cant be chump blocked and against Angler both feel lackluster (except you play tarfire/seal of fire ofc). What is in your sideboard? You could change the TNN for 1 Goyf which feels fine in a very Red-based meta (especially burn -.-).

    Regards
    Marius

  14. #2474

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Long time no talk y'all. I am just back from Japan, Top 8ing a small event with this list: http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD40032S/
    Nimble Obstructionists are actually Mongoose, of course. Some notes:
    - I hated Chain Lightning and wanted an instant-speed piece of removal (another Dead or Dismember) every time. I feel more and more I've tried to angle the deck to be as end step orientated as possible, but the sorcery-speed Bolts don't really help with that.
    - Sideboard Predict is SICCCCKK. With Library and eight cantrips post-board to set it up it, in addition to Loam, provides a non-permanent based way to accrue card advantage. Again, instant-speed also means you can hold up countermagic during your Predict turn as well. I have yet to live the dream of Submerging something and then Predicting it away.
    - I was impressed with the sideboard counterspell as a skeleton key card against midrange and combo alike. In someways it is like a less efficient Snare in its role.
    - The main deck True-Name bailed me out of a lot of situations but the list feels a little threat-heavy now and could see it being swapped with the Counterspell or Predict in the sideboard.

    A list very similar to mine also came 9th in the recent Classic:

    http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=118101

    Happy RUG life!

  15. #2475

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChemicalBurns View Post
    Long time no talk y'all. I am just back from Japan, Top 8ing a small event with this list: http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD40032S/
    Nimble Obstructionists are actually Mongoose, of course. Some notes:
    - I hated Chain Lightning and wanted an instant-speed piece of removal (another Dead or Dismember) every time. I feel more and more I've tried to angle the deck to be as end step orientated as possible, but the sorcery-speed Bolts don't really help with that.
    - Sideboard Predict is SICCCCKK. With Library and eight cantrips post-board to set it up it, in addition to Loam, provides a non-permanent based way to accrue card advantage. Again, instant-speed also means you can hold up countermagic during your Predict turn as well. I have yet to live the dream of Submerging something and then Predicting it away.
    - I was impressed with the sideboard counterspell as a skeleton key card against midrange and combo alike. In someways it is like a less efficient Snare in its role.
    - The main deck True-Name bailed me out of a lot of situations but the list feels a little threat-heavy now and could see it being swapped with the Counterspell or Predict in the sideboard.

    A list very similar to mine also came 9th in the recent Classic:

    http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=118101

    Happy RUG life!
    Interesting that you don't like chain lightning. This could be a play style thing but I find that a lot of my removal is played sorcery speed, so its uncommon for the sorcery speed to matter muchin my experiences.

    Single counterspell is great, I've played with it main sometimes. Sideboard is a great spot for it.

    Predict is a card that I've always felt is too hard to set up, and actually was probably in a better spot when top was legal . I would love to hear about how predict played out for you

  16. #2476

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    Interesting that you don't like chain lightning. This could be a play style thing but I find that a lot of my removal is played sorcery speed, so its uncommon for the sorcery speed to matter muchin my experiences.

    Single counterspell is great, I've played with it main sometimes. Sideboard is a great spot for it.

    Predict is a card that I've always felt is too hard to set up, and actually was probably in a better spot when top was legal . I would love to hear about how predict played out for you
    I think the sorcery speed matters a lot when you are wanting to hold up Snare/Pierce/Blast/Bolt to use at EoT potentially. I think more relevant is the additional reach that Chain Lightning gives, which I do feel is worthwhile. Again, maybe just a play style thing. It's not awful.

    Predict I actually am very high on. I've never found it hard to setup (in all the times I've cast it, I've actually always gotten full value,which says something), since eventually you will definitely hit a cantrip in long games where you are bringing it in. I also found it really useful to clear a Brainstorm lock and it can be nicely cast off a Wasteland too! I also tend to bring it in against combo when I have room, since in the early game it can be pitch food to Force, but in the midgame it is a card that can be setup at instant-speed (so shields aren't down) to refuel. I found it strong vs. Storm post-board where they often tear your hand apart with discard and Brainstorm tricks etc. are very pertinent. I think the only knock against it is that unlike Loam or Library it can get snagged by opposing Pyroblasts.

  17. #2477

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChemicalBurns View Post
    I think the only knock against it is that unlike Loam or Library it can get snagged by opposing Pyroblasts.
    -1 Predict
    +1 Think Twice

    kappa

  18. #2478

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    This is going to be a tough question to answer - but do you have any idea how many turns on average you had to wait to set up predict?

  19. #2479
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Hi guys, I've been playing Canadian Thresh for some time, but never at a bigger event. With SCG Worcester on its way, I'd like to present my current list for your opinions:

    RUG 50 (no goyf) 2 Hooting Mandrills, 2 Gitaxian Probe, 2 Snare, 2 Pierce, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Dead // Gone

    Essentially, I've replaced Goyf with Mandrills and probes, and the rest is fairly stock.

    SB:
    3 Pyroblast
    2 Abrade
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Destructive Revelry
    1 Submerge
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Vendilion Clique
    1 Dismember
    1 Dead // Gone
    1 Rough // Tumble

    I've been doing pretty good in my own local meta, losing to Nic Fit and occasionally to Jund and Eldrazi. I don't get many games in against Lands, which is a shame as that matchup seems hard.

    All in all, I feel that having fewer threats (10) is rarely an issue. I tried having a True-Name Nemesis as an 11th creature, but I did not like having a three drop in the deck. I much rather leave mana up every single turn. I've been loving what the Mandrills can do, be it to selectively reduce Goyf or neuter their DRS from using my Graveyard (if DRS actually survives).

    The probes have been doing great work, as a way to fill my yard for my two yard dependent threats and also to make sure I know when to keep U open or play a threat.

    The Dead // Gones are a great card, but I mostly use them to kill DRS and I've been wondering if a second Submerge SB might be better there, also as insurance against Marit Lage. Goyf seems to be coming back also, so maybe that'd be a good call.

    SO, for an SCGO, how would you shape up your Canadian Thresh? Am I awfully wrong on some aspects? I'll post SB strategies soon after.

    Thanks!

  20. #2480

    [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I think you need to dedicate slots to fight control. Yes, you're better positioned (compared to grixis and bug) thanks to Goose. But im not sure it's enough. I used to run sylvan, winter orb and 2x TNN in the board. Sometimes i even ran loam. Mandrills is good versus push and decay but actually worse than goyf vs swords to plowshares.

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