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Thread: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

  1. #2601

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by GoatLust View Post
    Long time lurker, but have been playing the deck since 2016.

    Went 10-0-2 in Legacy challenges this weekend at the Milwaukee Open.

    The two draws were with friends I rode up with. (Stoneblade and Sneak and Show)

    I can go into detail of overall gameplan / decklist for those interested, but here's what I faced:

    Challenge 1:
    Elves 2 - 0
    Charbelcher 2 - 0
    Grixis Delver 2 - 0
    Friend on SnS - ID

    Challenge 2:
    DnT 2 - 0
    BR Reanimator 2 - 1
    Tin Fins 2 - 0
    Aggro Loam 2 - 0

    Challenge 3:
    BR Reanimator 2 -1
    Grixis Reanimator 2 - 0
    Czech Pile 2 - 0
    Friend on Stoneblade ID

    Overall I made some tight plays and Ground Seal was an amazing SB card this weekend. Being more patient with BS and Ponder has gone a long way in improving my win rate, lol.
    Where we can find your decklist? I searched it no web but couldn't be able to found it.

  2. #2602

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mammonth View Post
    One Leyline is pretty good, it gives you free wins vs Reanimator and Dredge more often than not. At GP, I kept a hand with no lands but with a leyline on the draw and won easily. The thing is that against reanimator on the draw even surgicals don't work sometimes, and Leyline locks them out of the game. I think it is better than 3rd Surgical or Grafdigger's Cage. However, I would not play less than 3 gravehate cards in SB

    I play blind Predict about 25% of the time, mostly to fill graveyard for goose and mandrills. It is not hard to set it up, slowrolling it is usually a good plan unless we need to draw an out to something asap. It requires slightly different fetchland cracking strategy, e.g. when I side second Predict in, I tend to crack fetchland to have 2 duals before playing brainstorms/ponders
    Have you consider use faerie macabre over leyline? The chances of a single leyline be in your open-hand are extremely low.

  3. #2603

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiago View Post
    Where we can find your decklist? I searched it no web but couldn't be able to found it.
    I think you're thinking of the Legacy Classic. They don't post Challenge decks.

    Anyway, here's the list.

    Creatures: 11
    4 Nimble Mongoose
    4 Delver of Secrets
    2 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Tarmogoyf

    Instants + Sorceries: 31
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    4 Lightning Bolt
    2 Spell Pierce
    3 Stifle
    2 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Ponder
    1 Fire // Ice
    1 Spell Snare
    1 Forked Bolt
    1 Dismember

    Lands: 18
    2 Flooded Strand
    3 Misty Rainforest
    1 Polluted Delta
    2 Scalding Tarn
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island
    4 Wasteland

    Sideboard: 15
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Abrade
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Price of Progress
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Hydroblast
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Ground Seal
    1 Tarmogoyf
    1 Dead / Gone
    1 Rough / Tumble
    1 Standstill

  4. #2604

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by GoatLust View Post
    I think you're thinking of the Legacy Classic. They don't post Challenge decks.

    Anyway, here's the list.

    Creatures: 11
    4 Nimble Mongoose
    4 Delver of Secrets
    2 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Tarmogoyf

    Instants + Sorceries: 31
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    4 Lightning Bolt
    2 Spell Pierce
    3 Stifle
    2 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Ponder
    1 Fire // Ice
    1 Spell Snare
    1 Forked Bolt
    1 Dismember

    Lands: 18
    2 Flooded Strand
    3 Misty Rainforest
    1 Polluted Delta
    2 Scalding Tarn
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island
    4 Wasteland

    Sideboard: 15
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Abrade
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Price of Progress
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Hydroblast
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Ground Seal
    1 Tarmogoyf
    1 Dead / Gone
    1 Rough / Tumble
    1 Standstill
    That standstill is awesome. I like your MD too. I like 7 "bolts" and 2 probes.

  5. #2605

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by JackaBo View Post
    That standstill is awesome. I like your MD too. I like 7 "bolts" and 2 probes.
    Thanks! Standstill is a great card on the play after landing a threat. Kinda a pet card, too. I've tried 2 before but that felt clunky.

    The Git Probe split felt correct. I used to run 4, but nixed 2 for 1 Spell Snare and 1 Fire / Ice. I would often board them out once I knew what I was playing against.

    Hydroblast is a hedge against how much Moon based decks I've been running into lately. But didn't see any this weekend.

    7 kill spells is def the way to go, and in the current meta I wouldn't go with less than 6.

  6. #2606

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Hi Folks,

    Kept meaning to finish my GP Madrid report and couldn't find time! GP Madrid was a team GP and it's a little far off now but here are the high level points:

    - We missed cash on breakers (28th place, 9-5 finish, team tourneys are 14 rounds) and overall I had a decent tournament, wailing on pile players and had a good run against Grixis decks. Losses came to Lands, BUG Delver, 2/4 Grixis Delver opps and 1/4 Pile opps (yep, that's 8/14 matches vs. Pile or Grixis.) Other wins were vs. Jeskai Blade, Burn, SnS and ANT. Did not finish my camera match (here for all matches, here for legacy G2 only) vs. Grixis Pyro (because my team mates are studs) where we were 1-1 going into G3 (beware, terrible legacy commentary ahead.)

    - I went with a Goyf build after testing both Apes and Goyfs for months. I decided that folks were going down on push and that Goyf would be a good choice for the weekend. (I also thought I'd play against more Burn and Eldrazi with this being a team tournament - this was incorrect.) This did pay off though, I beat up a bunch of pile players favouring bolts for the weekend. Going forward I'm back on the Apes, it's just so much better than Goyf when you do meet a push deck (especially BUG Delver that also has Decays!), better against combo, burn/eldrazi just aren't prevalent enough and they're very similar in many other matchups (big green idiot, bad against plow, etc.) I might consider a single SB Goyf if your meta calls for it.

    - I played 2 Winter Orb in the side as I expected more Miracles and wanted a tool vs. Lands - I suspected that a deep run would require beating up some lands players, again this was a team tournament assumption. Played Lands only once, lost a in tight G3 without seeing Orb, shrug. I'm off it and back on to Loam/Ring last few weeks.

    - Spell Snare was a superstar, no surprises there. Don't play less than 2 in my opinion.

    - Nikolas Labahn (good Euro Legacy player) was the Pile player that beat me, I found out after the game that he was on a build with a ton of bolts and no pushes. Felt vindicated in my choices but sideboarding was a bit of a guessing game where I brought all my Goyfs back in G3 when I was sure after losing G2 to some hot bolt, bolt/snap/bolt action after fighting over something the previous turn and taking 8 from my Library earlier in the game. Great games. Rest of his team was the Goertzen brothers and they made decent cash finish.

    - At X-2 going into Day 2 we played against Dominguez/Calcano/Mengucci. Dominguez was my opp on BUG Delver and this is where my build was miserable. Goyf is so incredible bad in this matchup, dying to push, decay and very daze-able. We had a good 3 game match but he came out on top. We won the Jund mirror in the middle. Standard was interesting (sorry, boring Standard incoming, tune out if you don't care) we were were on Mono Red vs. UB and we put them in a position where they had to draw Hazoret removal that very turn or lose to Hazoret activations when we untap (board was stable with a Scarab God and a Gearhulk.) They almost decided to reanimate something (not sure why) but Mengucci argued to draw with mana avail to cast whatever is there and they drew Coup! Outs were only Coup and Contempt as nothing in yard for hulks to flashback. Great matches and they unfortunately missed on top 4, coming 5th.

    - Single SB Counterspell was good. Great in the grindy matchups when you need to hit stuff blasts can't and great in the combo matchups. It showed up vs. SnS and ANT at some very key moments for me to take games and subsequently matches.

    This is my list going forward and I'm testing hard for GP Birmingham. It's basically Sean Brown's (ChemicalBurns) so shoutout to him with only 1 main deck Predict, 1 TNN taking its place and 1 Staticaster in side with the room created by that 2nd TNN. A good chunk of SB slots are up for debate but I'm pretty locked in on the main deck, single Predict has been stellar.

    I have also created a RUG Discord channel! I just created this today so it's a little tumbleweedy but feel free to join and we can get some discussion drummed up in there and share lists, data and results.

    Cheers folks.
    Last edited by Danzan; 04-11-2018 at 11:25 AM.

  7. #2607

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Wow, asian / eurpoean meta must really be a lot different from the american meta for this many RUG players to have problems with push...

    But btw, hooting mandrills doesn't fill the role of "big green idiot". You gain some % points against pile, but as you noted I believe eldrazi is not winnable without goyf, and burn suffers too. Overall I think having goyfs in your deck makes your deck more well rounded, but don't want to rehash the goyf vs mandrills debate

    Bummer that you didn't see your winter orbs, I would encourage you not to give up on those yet!

  8. #2608

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    Wow, asian / eurpoean meta must really be a lot different from the american meta for this many RUG players to have problems with push...

    But btw, hooting mandrills doesn't fill the role of "big green idiot". You gain some % points against pile, but as you noted I believe eldrazi is not winnable without goyf, and burn suffers too. Overall I think having goyfs in your deck makes your deck more well rounded, but don't want to rehash the goyf vs mandrills debate

    Bummer that you didn't see your winter orbs, I would encourage you not to give up on those yet!
    I feel you on Mandrills, "big green idiot" was probably the wrong term but I just meant that there's common drawbacks and boons between the cards compared to your other threats (good vs. bolt, bad vs. plow, etc.)

    What's your most recent list look like rlesko? I've not entirely given up on the Goyf/Orb build and I like to have a good version in my pocket if I want to use it. I played this at Madrid.

  9. #2609

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    Wow, asian / eurpoean meta must really be a lot different from the american meta for this many RUG players to have problems with push...

    But btw, hooting mandrills doesn't fill the role of "big green idiot". You gain some % points against pile, but as you noted I believe eldrazi is not winnable without goyf, and burn suffers too. Overall I think having goyfs in your deck makes your deck more well rounded, but don't want to rehash the goyf vs mandrills debate

    Bummer that you didn't see your winter orbs, I would encourage you not to give up on those yet!
    Further questions... How do you find the BUG Delver matchup as a Goyf player? What decks are you siding in Orb against? Just want to see if there's any unexpected positive matchups for it there.

  10. #2610

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Gotcha...yea fair enough. Both are bad vs plow agreed. But goyf doesn't nuke your GY and shrink your geese at least :)

    I bring in winter orb against miracles, lands, stoneblade decks, stompy decks, and aether vial decks. I've been experimenting with it vs sneak & show but don't have conclusive testing on that. Obviously if you bring it in against vial decks, you must make a priority to destroy / force their vials. The part I like the most about Orb is that, I feel like I can execute the RUG mana denial plan + soft countermage vs any deck. When stifle is bad and / or my opponent plays an excess of basics I want an opportunity to tax their mana still. And it converts the "worst" late game top deck (Daze) into one of the best cards you can draw. This has a cascade effect of freeing up sideboard slots.

    Last I played a bug delver deck he was playing like 3 abrupt decay and 2 push. I find it pretty easy to screw with their colors via stifle / wasteland. Playing snares is hugely important here as we have a much harder problem with resolved goyfs than they do. They are kind of a weak midrange deck so its possible to get "under" them.

    My latest list is very similar to the one you posted. I play preordain instead of Sylvan Library main, and tarfire over seal of fire. In the sideboard, the only difference is I play 2 Ancient Grudge instead of Abrade split, and a Seal of Fire instead of the Flusterstorm.

  11. #2611

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    My latest list is very similar to the one you posted. I play preordain instead of Sylvan Library main, and tarfire over seal of fire. In the sideboard, the only difference is I play 2 Ancient Grudge instead of Abrade split, and a Seal of Fire instead of the Flusterstorm.
    Sorry, I’m probably missing something obvious here, but the list linked to at MTGGoldfish doesn’t align with the changes you mention. What list are your referring to?

  12. #2612

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by now View Post
    Sorry, I’m probably missing something obvious here, but the list linked to at MTGGoldfish doesn’t align with the changes you mention. What list are your referring to?
    Quote Originally Posted by Danzan View Post
    I played this at Madrid.

  13. #2613

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Thanks! I was looking in all the wrong places.

  14. #2614

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    Wow, asian / eurpoean meta must really be a lot different from the american meta for this many RUG players to have problems with push...

    But btw, hooting mandrills doesn't fill the role of "big green idiot". You gain some % points against pile, but as you noted I believe eldrazi is not winnable without goyf, and burn suffers too. Overall I think having goyfs in your deck makes your deck more well rounded, but don't want to rehash the goyf vs mandrills debate

    Bummer that you didn't see your winter orbs, I would encourage you not to give up on those yet!
    I also get this wow effect when watching american tournaments on stream: all those grixis delver. In europe it's more pile and pushes. I love some w orb too, that's the very reason to go Canadian IMO.

  15. #2615

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    Gotcha...yea fair enough. Both are bad vs plow agreed. But goyf doesn't nuke your GY and shrink your geese at least :)
    For sure!

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    I bring in winter orb against miracles, lands, stoneblade decks, stompy decks, and aether vial decks. I've been experimenting with it vs sneak & show but don't have conclusive testing on that. Obviously if you bring it in against vial decks, you must make a priority to destroy / force their vials. The part I like the most about Orb is that, I feel like I can execute the RUG mana denial plan + soft countermage vs any deck. When stifle is bad and / or my opponent plays an excess of basics I want an opportunity to tax their mana still. And it converts the "worst" late game top deck (Daze) into one of the best cards you can draw. This has a cascade effect of freeing up sideboard slots.
    Yep, this is what I was doing, made the DnT matchup much more palatable. JonLX used to side in Orb vs. Sneak and Show and I think it's worth exploring as it gives them a hard time rebuilding after we've won a fight. All your other points around Orb are great and a big reason why I brought them to the tournament. There's just so much Pile here and it's not useful in the Delver mirrors, I ended up siding them in in only 2 matches out of 14.

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    Last I played a bug delver deck he was playing like 3 abrupt decay and 2 push. I find it pretty easy to screw with their colors via stifle / wasteland. Playing snares is hugely important here as we have a much harder problem with resolved goyfs than they do. They are kind of a weak midrange deck so its possible to get "under" them.
    Yep, Snare is great against them. Screwing colours can be so tough on the draw and I feel it's more devastating when we can't do that compared to vs. Grixis. This play pattern is horrible: T1 they play Shaman, T1 you kill it (even though you have Snare in hand), T2 they hymn you.
    I know what you mean about going under though, need to play the matchup more if I'm honest and I plan on testing it a lot more before Birmingham with and without Goyfs.

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    My latest list is very similar to the one you posted. I play preordain instead of Sylvan Library main, and tarfire over seal of fire. In the sideboard, the only difference is I play 2 Ancient Grudge instead of Abrade split, and a Seal of Fire instead of the Flusterstorm.
    What do you find attractive about Tarfire? Instant speed is great but I found the ability to play Seal on the play before they have Daze access invaluable. (Obviously the DRS not being able to eat it point is valid too but this is known.) I feel I would rather have 2 Seals in the 75 before a Tarfire but I'm probably missing something.

  16. #2616

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Thanks to everyone who has joined the Discord so far! Nice and lively in there already with some good discussions.

    If anybody else would like to join, fire in.

    Cheers folks.

  17. #2617

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Danzan View Post
    Thanks to everyone who has joined the Discord so far! Nice and lively in there already with some good discussions.
    Why do we need a second place to discuss what we’re already discussing here?

  18. #2618

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Danzan View Post
    Yep, this is what I was doing, made the DnT matchup much more palatable. JonLX used to side in Orb vs. Sneak and Show and I think it's worth exploring as it gives them a hard time rebuilding after we've won a fight. All your other points around Orb are great and a big reason why I brought them to the tournament. There's just so much Pile here and it's not useful in the Delver mirrors, I ended up siding them in in only 2 matches out of 14.


    Yep, Snare is great against them. Screwing colours can be so tough on the draw and I feel it's more devastating when we can't do that compared to vs. Grixis. This play pattern is horrible: T1 they play Shaman, T1 you kill it (even though you have Snare in hand), T2 they hymn you.
    I know what you mean about going under though, need to play the matchup more if I'm honest and I plan on testing it a lot more before Birmingham with and without Goyfs.


    What do you find attractive about Tarfire? Instant speed is great but I found the ability to play Seal on the play before they have Daze access invaluable. (Obviously the DRS not being able to eat it point is valid too but this is known.) I feel I would rather have 2 Seals in the 75 before a Tarfire but I'm probably missing something.

    The problem I found with Winter Orb vs sneak and Show is that normally the game is won or lost after the big fight. Typically all resources are expended and both players are basically hellbent (except Sneak player probably has a griselbrand in his hand). Winter Orb only lines up against those draws of theirs where they have a bunch of enables and a lack of countermagic. In my limited testing I often died with Winter Orb in hand, never having the opportunity to deploy it profitably.

    To your comment about Snare, I actually think it may be correct to let shaman live for a turn and leave spell snare up. Obviously it depends on a number of factors - did you play a fetch or a dual? (e.g. are you insulated vs a wasteland or not), do you have soft countermagic or hard countermagic (bolt + daze vs bolt + snare)? Deathrite is kill on sight but it is not uncommon to play "control" the first few turns (let them play our their spells and counter kill all of them, then deploy 2 creatures in the same turn taking all the tempo back)

    And against an unknown opponent I prefer instant speed burn spells. If I'm against an unknown opponent I would not necessarily lead with seal of fire -> pass. It gives them a lot of information and you are still blind. If you are playing a combo deck they no longer have to respect spell pierce / snare, if you're playing a creature deck they can choose what their worst one drop is. I would save it with the intention of brainstorming it back later, bluffing more spells, and hiding more information.

  19. #2619

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    The problem I found with Winter Orb vs sneak and Show is that normally the game is won or lost after the big fight. Typically all resources are expended and both players are basically hellbent (except Sneak player probably has a griselbrand in his hand). Winter Orb only lines up against those draws of theirs where they have a bunch of enables and a lack of countermagic. In my limited testing I often died with Winter Orb in hand, never having the opportunity to deploy it profitably.
    I see what you mean with regards to the play patterns, obviously it depends if you have a threat or not but you're making mulligan decisions with that in mind. We probably have better tools in the 75 here.

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    To your comment about Snare, I actually think it may be correct to let shaman live for a turn and leave spell snare up. Obviously it depends on a number of factors - did you play a fetch or a dual? (e.g. are you insulated vs a wasteland or not), do you have soft countermagic or hard countermagic (bolt + daze vs bolt + snare)? Deathrite is kill on sight but it is not uncommon to play "control" the first few turns (let them play our their spells and counter kill all of them, then deploy 2 creatures in the same turn taking all the tempo back)
    Yep, hand is very dictating here. I guess I just fear them playing a 3 mana creature if I don't have Daze but I'm not losing that mana if I can still kill the shaman but still behind on tempo. But you're right, very dependant on hand and many other factors. I think I was just remembering a particularly bad game where I had to make this play.

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    And against an unknown opponent I prefer instant speed burn spells. If I'm against an unknown opponent I would not necessarily lead with seal of fire -> pass. It gives them a lot of information and you are still blind. If you are playing a combo deck they no longer have to respect spell pierce / snare, if you're playing a creature deck they can choose what their worst one drop is. I would save it with the intention of brainstorming it back later, bluffing more spells, and hiding more information.
    This makes a lot of sense. I was thinking more about playing it out T1 postboard but being in the dark, on the play in G1 is a big one. Can still grow Goyf to 5/6 vs. Eldrazi and the like that don't play DRS. I'll test it, as I said I'm keen to give Goyf another shot before Birmingham.

    Quote Originally Posted by now View Post
    Why do we need a second place to discuss what we’re already discussing here?
    I'm absolutely not saying we stop discussing things here. As you can see I'm still posting :)
    Some folks prefer a different format and/or are long time readers that don't necessarily want to post but would be happy using chat. Plus there's channels for more casual talk, etc. which don't really work through this medium. Phone app does make things very easy as well and using it while commuting, etc. is great.
    Essentially I'm not trying to replace this thread at all, I want to build on it if anything and expand the RUG family! It might not be for everyone but that's absolutely fine.

  20. #2620

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Thought this card was interesting: https://media.wizards.com/2018/dom/en_47k2GBWc6i.png

    Destroy chalice -> wasteland you

    Destroy aether vial -> play a delver / goose

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