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Thread: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

  1. #2701

    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Thank you!

  2. #2702

    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Testing results vs UB Deaths Shadow

    I wanted some idea of the Shadow matchup so me and my friend played about 15-20 Games preboard. The first 2/3 of the games were played with 4 Tarmogoyf and the latter 1/3 with a 2 Mandrills 1 Predict list something like what Sean Brown plays. These are my opinions following that session:

    - The 'RUG has no un-loseable matchups' adage is not falsified here, but the matchup is not good, in the ballpark of 40/60 or 30/70

    - The things people have been saying along the lines of 'Stifle is an outdated card' are very apparent in this matchup. Unless you can manascrew the opponent with it early on there is nothing you can do with Stifle except counter a Street Wraith cycle, and it's very difficult to effectively manascrew them because all their cards cost 1 and all their lands give them both of the 2 colors that they need.

    - The way the games typically play out is that you get ahead on the board early because your threats don't require any setup (Goyf/Goose/Delver vs Delver/Angler/Shadow). Later in the game the opponent will play a large threat that walls your ground attackers. If you get into this boardstall, the longer the game goes the less favoured you are, because it gives the opponent time to find another shadow/angler at which point you basically die in 2 shadow attacks. If your opponent is on a very low life total then you can try to topdeck burn spells but your opponent only needs to be on 8 life to have a 5/5 shadow that already outsizes all of your creatures, so this is often difficult to do if the opponent is managing their life total properly. Overall this means that RUG is 'the beatdown' in the matchup

    - For this reason trying to zoo them out is a generally profitable line, because it gives them minimal time to find multiple threats and you can deal the final points of damage by chump-attack-alpha-striking into their big creature if you have to. (i.e. Multi-creature draws are really good)

    - Spell Snare is a literal blank, and this punishes you a lot because in the matchup all of your relevant cards trade off very quickly, so often when you draw it you will wind up in situations where your last 1-2 cards has a snare but the opponent's 1-2 cards are still live (this is essentially the same reason why stifle sucks). In this matchup the opponent's plan is so efficient that the game will often be over before you can maneuver into a situation you can brainstorm dead cards away.

    - Even though mongoose is smaller than everything it's still relatively good because it costs 1 and is unkillable

    - Tarmogoyf seems like it would be good, because in most other matchups it helps with the zoo-style draws, but costing 2 means that it's very difficult to resolve it through Daze, and it's also a big tempo swing to spend 2 mana on it and have it be Snuffed / Push / Dismembered. For the games with Goyf I was playing 2 Seal of Fire, which potentially helps to beat Angler and dodge dismember, but
    - You need to have them both together, which is relatively difficult because the games are so fast
    - You need to have them both together and your opponent to not have Daze/Push/Thoughtseize etc for your Tarmogoyf
    - You need to have them both together and your Tarmogoyf needs to stick and your opponent has to not just play a 7/7 shadow which beats it anyway
    The 'Boosted Goyf' tech might be worth it in Angler matchups that dont have Shadow (and vs Reality Smasher) but I don't think it improves this particular matchup enough for it to factor into the decision to play it or not

    - Because Goyf is so easily outsized/killed it isn't necessarily better than Mandrills because of its combat stats. Mandrills does dodge push, and being able to cast it for 1 is a significant advantage, but building your deck around Mandrills means reducing your total threat count and it's very hard to deploy multiple mandrills at a time, which are strikes against it. Overall I'm not sure which approach is better in this matchup, I would need to play more games with the Mandrills build

    - TNN is probably the ideal threat in the matchup but good luck resolving it

    - Dismember seems like good removal because it kills Angler, but remember that Dismember is most likely replacing a Burn spell, which are also very powerful cards in the matchup, so it really isn't that much of an upgrade (if at all).

    - The Fire/Ice idea is rubbish, both because it's a 2 mana card and because typically if it's going to force one of your attackers through a board that attacker will just be a Mongoose, which isn't much different to just having Ice be Chain Lightning and aiming it at the opponent's face. I also found that being 2 mana often made it worse vs Death and Taxes than the cheaper options (even with the damage split) because it's hard to cast under Thalia and doesn't kill Mother on turn 1. It's an acceptable hedge if your meta is full of Elves (why would you even play RUG then) but that's about it

    - Don't use FoW to protect your ground creatures (Mandrills/Tarmo) from removal because as soon as your opponent plays a threat they get shut down anyway. Delver on the other hand is often worth protecting because it flies over Shadow/Angler so you can actually force a race with it

    - "Do I just not attack? Maybe I am helping my opponent make a big Death's Shadow". The longer the game goes you give your opponent time to find multiple shadows/anglers. It's a much better approach to just aggro them out ASAP, and hope that you can counter their first threat and they'll be too low on life to play out of it, unable to use Wraiths / Fetches / Forces / Reanimates / Dismembers etc (or at least they have to worry about going into bolt range)

    - Place a very high value on Stifling your opponents first 1-2 lands. You aren't favoured if your opponent gets to execute their gameplan, and it's a huge windfall if you are ever able to Daze a Shadow or an Angler. You can't 'save stifle for later' like you can in some other matchups because there isn't anything else to use it on (e.g. Snapcaster, Stoneforge) and your opponent only needs 1 land to cast all their spells. Your opponent will naturally deal a ton of damage to themselves so casting an early threat is not a priority, therefore you gain more equity from leaving your mana untapped and attempting to counter your opponent's land drops. [So stifle is good? No, but if you've decided to put it in your deck you might as well use it optimally]

    If I think of anything else later I'll edit it in below, otherwise feel free to ask me anything

  3. #2703
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Do you guys have any general tips against Turbo Depths?

    What are your boarding strategies? On the play/draw.

    Thanx
    WESTCOAST
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  4. #2704
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I decided to go for those main deck Nemesises also.
    Creature suite is now like this:
    • 4 Delver of Secrets
    • 4 Nimble Mongoose
    • 2 Tarmogoyf
    • 2 True-Name Nemesis


    I think that even tho my local meta game is very shifty and people most likely play what they desire at each time there will be like lot of combo decks (ANT, Belcher, Show and Tell) and decent amount of slower control decks (UBr Control, Miracles). Threshold is most likely the best fair deck at disrupting combo decks meanwhile giving them reasonable clock to worry. On the other hand Threshold isn't at its best when grinding longer games so Nemesises will hopely help me there. Don't know if I should swap Tarmogoyfs for Mandrills to dodge Fatal Push and forcing damage through opposing Nemesises.

    Mana and tax disruption suite is the stock:
    • 4 Force of Will
    • 4 Daze
    • 4 Stifle
    • 4 Wasteland


    Some people have shaved one Stifle or Daze from the list but I don't like that idea. Never had. Do you guys have experience in lets say main deck Divert or Loam? I saw a wild Threshold with Barbarian Ring in main.

    Cantrips are the stock eight.

    Removal suite is four Lightning Bolts and single Dismember. Dismember is of course for the zombie fishes and Shadows.
    I have two Snags in the sideboard to combat those Grixis and Shadow decks better.

    Flex slots are kind of messy:
    • 2 Spell Pierce
    • 2 Spell Snare
    • 1 Flusterstorm


    Don't actually know if I should lean to one of these spells only. Snare or Pierce and not try to add both. Flusterstorm is in there to combat opposing counterspells and combo. These flex slots have been hard to fill for me since the printing of Abrupt Decay.

    What is your preference for the creature setup?
    Have any of you tried the Courier? I kinda like the grinding aspect of that card but the clock of that card just looks so miserable.
    Threshold

  5. #2705

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by hiski View Post
    I decided to go for those main deck Nemesises also.
    Creature suite is now like this:
    • 4 Delver of Secrets
    • 4 Nimble Mongoose
    • 2 Tarmogoyf
    • 2 True-Name Nemesis


    Some people have shaved one Stifle or Daze from the list but I don't like that idea. Never had. Do you guys have experience in lets say main deck Divert or Loam? I saw a wild Threshold with Barbarian Ring in main.


    What is your preference for the creature setup?
    Have any of you tried the Courier? I kinda like the grinding aspect of that card but the clock of that card just looks so miserable.
    Tarmogoyf has to go: there's simply too many fatal pushes flying around, AND it also regularly gets outsized by Anglers/Shadows. You can try to swap them for 2 Mandrills, but the dyssynergy with Goose is bad, plus it would still end up being the worst creature in your setup anyway, so I'm just playing 10 creatures at the moment and I'm pretty happy with it. The fact that 6 of those are highly resilient to removal mitigates the low count, anyway.
    Every time I pick up a different version of Delver, I try to find an excuse not to play 2 TNN in the main (costs too much, weak to -1-1 effects, blastable, can't play rough/tumble, etc), but I inevitably go back to it after not being satisfied with my win %, which will magically start to improve after its inclusion...

    Having only 10 creatures means you have a few more flex slots, one of which I'm occupying with a maindeck Divert: I haven't used it much, but boy is it spectacular when it works! The fact that it can still function as a pseudo spell pierce in a counter war makes me think it has enough flexibility to stay in the maindeck for now (plus I love me some SPICE). If you don't like fun, I guess you could swap it for a pierce of fluster instead.
    I've also began playing 1 copy of Loam in the SB: I bring it in in all wasteland mirrors (Delver, DnT, Aggro Loam, Lands, Eldrazi) and obviously in mus where wasteland is key (Post Ramp, Depths). It has already won me a couple of games in delver mirrors, so I guess it's staying for the moment.

    I really don't think this deck needs bomat courier. That's something Grixis was gravitating towards to replace DRS, because a tempo deck absolutely needs an additional 1-drop to play 4-of. But we already have Goose, which, hit or miss as it is, makes this the best Delver deck against control (especially UW control), and is still one of the main, if not THE main, reason to play it. I can see Bomat potentially working in a more tap out, proactive deck which wants to empty its hand quickly, but when playing RUG, you want to deploy your hard-hitting threat and hold those counters to protect it/disrupt your opponent's bigger plays.

  6. #2706
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Luca Grease View Post
    Tarmogoyf has to go: there's simply too many fatal pushes flying around, AND it also regularly gets outsized by Anglers/Shadows. You can try to swap them for 2 Mandrills, but the dyssynergy with Goose is bad, plus it would still end up being the worst creature in your setup anyway, so I'm just playing 10 creatures at the moment and I'm pretty happy with it. The fact that 6 of those are highly resilient to removal mitigates the low count, anyway.
    Every time I pick up a different version of Delver, I try to find an excuse not to play 2 TNN in the main (costs too much, weak to -1-1 effects, blastable, can't play rough/tumble, etc), but I inevitably go back to it after not being satisfied with my win %, which will magically start to improve after its inclusion...

    Having only 10 creatures means you have a few more flex slots, one of which I'm occupying with a maindeck Divert: I haven't used it much, but boy is it spectacular when it works! The fact that it can still function as a pseudo spell pierce in a counter war makes me think it has enough flexibility to stay in the maindeck for now (plus I love me some SPICE). If you don't like fun, I guess you could swap it for a pierce of fluster instead.
    I've also began playing 1 copy of Loam in the SB: I bring it in in all wasteland mirrors (Delver, DnT, Aggro Loam, Lands, Eldrazi) and obviously in mus where wasteland is key (Post Ramp, Depths). It has already won me a couple of games in delver mirrors, so I guess it's staying for the moment.

    I really don't think this deck needs bomat courier. That's something Grixis was gravitating towards to replace DRS, because a tempo deck absolutely needs an additional 1-drop to play 4-of. But we already have Goose, which, hit or miss as it is, makes this the best Delver deck against control (especially UW control), and is still one of the main, if not THE main, reason to play it. I can see Bomat potentially working in a more tap out, proactive deck which wants to empty its hand quickly, but when playing RUG, you want to deploy your hard-hitting threat and hold those counters to protect it/disrupt your opponent's bigger plays.
    So it dies to removal is the No.1 reason not to use a card. Ok.

  7. #2707

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by KobeBryan View Post
    So it dies to removal is the No.1 reason not to use a card. Ok.
    Goyf is not a very strong creature these days AND dies a lot. This archetype is suffering, and it's partly because it's threats haven't truly evolved since TNN.

    These are good, sound reasons to look at goyf and suggest that something new/different be tried.

    Day 2 after shaman's banning, I put temur Delver back together. Day 5, I disassembled it. It was goyf's ineffectiveness that made me do so.

  8. #2708

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by KobeBryan View Post
    So it dies to removal is the No.1 reason not to use a card. Ok.
    Dies to ubiquitous and cheap removal, while also lining up poorly against a lot of commonly played creatures (Angler, Strix, Shadow) sounds like a pretty good reason not to play a creature. What's a reason to play it? Where does goyf shine? Certainly not against StP decks. Not against UB based decks, or combo either. Delver, Goose and TNN have their own drawbacks, but they are all excel at a certain role. Goyf doesn't anymore

  9. #2709

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    What it really comes down to is that goose is only really good against miracle. It’s too slow to ”flip”, it’s bad against strix, goyf, angler, knight even when flipped.

  10. #2710
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I am in the same wagon with people who are cutting Tarmogoyf. Of course it is stunning beater if you go toe to toe with only combo and aggro decks but when you start to face Angler and Strixes Goyf turns very fast just underwhelming and sad. Even the Abrupt Decay made Tarmogoyf sad but one mana removal and outclassing threats makes it even worse.

    Is this deck becoming like splash green for Mongoose? Or is it just better to cut it also with Tarmogoyf and add four Mandrills? I kinda like the idea of that over half of threat base dodges Fatal Push and opposing True-Name Nemesis.
    Threshold

  11. #2711

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by JackaBo View Post
    What it really comes down to is that goose is only really good against miracle. It’s too slow to ”flip”, it’s bad against strix, goyf, angler, knight even when flipped.
    This is a lot more debatable. Sure Strix can get walled by opposing creatures, but shroud is still REALLY good against a number of decks other than Miracles, including Grixis control. You can often bolt the strix and not care about the card disadvantage because the virtual card advantage provided by shroud more than makes up for it. For this reason, I would not consider swapping goose with Mandrills: while more resilient than Goyf, they still die to a lot of removal like Stp, chumpblock + bolt, assassin's trophy, Jacebounce, etc, while providing very little upside over goose.

    Besides, goose is definitely not the only reason to play green. Sylvan Library is a necessary maindeck card if you're only playing with 10 creatures imo. And green does have some very interesting cards to offer to the sb such as Revelry, Loam, and Compost

    Quote Originally Posted by hiski View Post
    Is this deck becoming like splash green for Mongoose? Or is it just better to cut it also with Tarmogoyf and add four Mandrills? I kinda like the idea of that over half of threat base dodges Fatal Push and opposing True-Name Nemesis.
    I would ask myself how often I have to play vs TNN (a card that is currently at a low among top decks) vs Swords to Plowshares

  12. #2712
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    Testing results vs UB Deaths Shadow
    Great post. Thank you!

  13. #2713
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Luca Grease View Post
    This is a lot more debatable. Sure Strix can get walled by opposing creatures, but shroud is still REALLY good against a number of decks other than Miracles, including Grixis control. You can often bolt the strix and not care about the card disadvantage because the virtual card advantage provided by shroud more than makes up for it. For this reason, I would not consider swapping goose with Mandrills: while more resilient than Goyf, they still die to a lot of removal like Stp, chumpblock + bolt, assassin's trophy, Jacebounce, etc, while providing very little upside over goose.

    Besides, goose is definitely not the only reason to play green. Sylvan Library is a necessary maindeck card if you're only playing with 10 creatures imo. And green does have some very interesting cards to offer to the sb such as Revelry, Loam, and Compost



    I would ask myself how often I have to play vs TNN (a card that is currently at a low among top decks) vs Swords to Plowshares
    Nice catch on Compost :) I like it a lot! Compost seems to be big deal versus Shadow and Storm. Dunno if it is good enough but I will give it a shot.

    I didn't mean to say that green doesn't offer good sideboard cards but I think in Legacy people don't splash colors to fair decks for sideboard cards only unless the card is like Pyroblast level in power.
    Threshold

  14. #2714

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by hiski View Post
    Nice catch on Compost :) I like it a lot! Compost seems to be big deal versus Shadow and Storm. Dunno if it is good enough but I will give it a shot.

    I didn't mean to say that green doesn't offer good sideboard cards but I think in Legacy people don't splash colors to fair decks for sideboard cards only unless the card is like Pyroblast level in power.
    Yes well, those SB cards are in addition to Mongoose. As a tempo deck, we still need another 1-drop, and bomat courier is no substitute imo.

    As for compost, with black decks moving away from green (and therefore the ability to destroy enchantments) after the DRS ban, I am very excited by the potential of this card, both against fair (UB Shadow, Grixis Control) and unfair decks (Dredge, ANT, Reanimator). It's so good a lot of times I'd be willing to tap out for it on turn 2 against combo, because the amount of cards you immediately draw off it make your chances of seeing FoW, Daze, ad Surgical skyrocket. Even though I'm jelly and want to keep the tech secret, the truth is a larger testing base would help a lot :P

  15. #2715
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Luca Grease View Post
    Yes well, those SB cards are in addition to Mongoose. As a tempo deck, we still need another 1-drop, and bomat courier is no substitute imo.

    As for compost, with black decks moving away from green (and therefore the ability to destroy enchantments) after the DRS ban, I am very excited by the potential of this card, both against fair (UB Shadow, Grixis Control) and unfair decks (Dredge, ANT, Reanimator). It's so good a lot of times I'd be willing to tap out for it on turn 2 against combo, because the amount of cards you immediately draw off it make your chances of seeing FoW, Daze, ad Surgical skyrocket. Even though I'm jelly and want to keep the tech secret, the truth is a larger testing base would help a lot :P
    How do you feel about Stifles? Some people have been cutting them but I like the full set.
    I also saw this wild list which had threat suite of four Mongooses and four Mandrills and couple of Nemesises in the sideboard.
    Threshold

  16. #2716

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I am of the idea that if you're playing a tempo deck as focused as this, stifle is a necessity. Sometimes it will be devastating, sometimes it will be mediocre or awkward, but that's just the nature of playing this deck. If you cut stifle, your soft permission gets worse, and your threats are more likely to get outclassed before they can finish the job.

  17. #2717

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Hi guys! First post for me :)

    I played Canadian at a 100person tournament in Ger called "eternal clash". Playing Canadian since 2-3 Years with some breakes, really big fan of the mongoose!
    Went 4-3, but after all it was very close.
    List had 2 mandirlls and 1 True name, 3 Stifle 1 divert, 3 spell pierce 2 spell snare. Dismember/Forked bolt. Otherwise Stock.
    SB was like: pretty stock (2surgical/2pyroblast/...) too besides that i was going with 2 winter orb, 1 vapor snag, 1 true-name and a single null rod. I wanted to be prepeared for Grixis and this was it.

    1. First match i played against UWb miracles with strixis... this felt like a mean machup because you can not hang on goose only and hope this will be enough because he can, apart from normal UW miracles list, slam another thread that needs to be handled and the virtual CA from goose cant save you the day 100%. So we went 1-1 and in the 3rd game we went to the turns after some grinding and a single bridge wichich i was prepearded for Thx to Ancient grudge from the SB to fight strixes. In the last extra turn i hat the chance to make a draw or go all in with my last copie of bolt. He had mentor, the stack become big, storm count to he had 3 StP with snappie and a FoW and Fluster. My counterwall was not as big. Winter orb was not enough to keep him of Mana. I was one mana/1Life Short of winning in the end. Felt like i throwed the game somwhere but tuff to say when. 1:2
    2. Match against 4Cloam. G1: stifle, waste, Goose->win. G2: he keeps double chalice double mox D. Hand. I have Ancient Grudge. Play Ancient Grudge, flashback, play goose. Counter Knight with Fow, Pierce Liliana->win. 2:0
    3. This was another weird match. He played Shardles Agent with 4 Tarmogoyfs. He drew em all. My list is not well prepeared to fight tarmogoyf. G1 i divert a T2hymn from him beeing on the play and still loose to tarmogoyf :/ Maybe raw CA is not what this deck wants to have. Lost another test match where the exact same thing happended the night bevore. 0:2
    4. UW miracles. Opponent has all cards full artered. Played AK miracles. i resolve goose and hit him hard. 2:0
    5. Death and Taxes. This is funny because i wanted to test the winter orb tech against D&T and hat no way to do so bevore the tournament. G1 i have double Delver. He has flicker T3 and T4 i Dismember one and fly in for the win with bolt. G2 he hast vial followed by waste/waste/port/port/ enough plains. i cant cast any spell and get beat'n out. G3 i resolve winter orb T2 and grind him out on mana, still a close game. It was super importatnt that he had no acces to Rishadan Port thanx to winter orb. 2:1
    6. Leovold/Dark depths grind pile. G1 i drew 2 lands in 25 cards, and my opponent had 2 Wastelands. still pretty close with him having Fow for my last lethal Forked bolt top deck, after i saved my volc from waste with bolt->daze my bolt->cant pay :_(. Game two he had DD combo i had no answer. 0:2
    7. Burn. just had enough t beat burn. 2:0

    So after all i want to cut the divert, i lost games where the card did all it could. even in testing i lost games after killing enemys TNN with it or rederecting hymn.
    Not having Tarmogoyf felt awkward against Shardless agent but i know Mandrills is so much better against grixis control and Delver. I had 2-3 cenarious where mandrills where cutting gooses ability to go big but hey still more power on board with mandirlls, also protects you from edict against black decks which cant push either of the creatures. Oh another fun thing, my mandrills got assassins trophied 3 times in the tournament... lets see where this cards leads.

    it is really tuff to say where canadian wants to be at the moment. Mandrills and Tarmogoyf is a meta call but like me you can just get the wrong opponent and loose. Lets say you meet Eldrazi and other tarmogoyfs wou will cry with mandirlls in the 75, lets say you meet grixis all day you will cry about Tarmogoyf cause he dies to push and can not trample over TNN and Pyro and deal dmg under strix. After all i think Tarmogoyf is the saver choice in an open field because you will not auto loose to other Tarmo/big creature decks meanwhile you can compensate not having a mandrills much better.

    Future changes to my list will look like. -1 divert, +1 Stifle. -1 Spell pierce -2 Mandrills, +3 Tarmogoyf. SB stays as it is: 2 Pyro, 2 Surgical, 1 electrickery, 1 Ancient grudge, 1 null rod, 2 winter orb, 1 Destructive Rev (Good against B2B and weird single ensnaring Bridges from UWx decks), 1 TNN, 1 Izzet staticaster, 1 dismember, 1 vapor snag, 1 fluster storm.

  18. #2718
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bagnold View Post
    Hi guys! First post for me :)

    I played Canadian at a 100person tournament in Ger called "eternal clash". Playing Canadian since 2-3 Years with some breakes, really big fan of the mongoose!
    Went 4-3, but after all it was very close.
    List had 2 mandirlls and 1 True name, 3 Stifle 1 divert, 3 spell pierce 2 spell snare. Dismember/Forked bolt. Otherwise Stock.
    SB was like: pretty stock (2surgical/2pyroblast/...) too besides that i was going with 2 winter orb, 1 vapor snag, 1 true-name and a single null rod. I wanted to be prepeared for Grixis and this was it.

    1. First match i played against UWb miracles with strixis... this felt like a mean machup because you can not hang on goose only and hope this will be enough because he can, apart from normal UW miracles list, slam another thread that needs to be handled and the virtual CA from goose cant save you the day 100%. So we went 1-1 and in the 3rd game we went to the turns after some grinding and a single bridge wichich i was prepearded for Thx to Ancient grudge from the SB to fight strixes. In the last extra turn i hat the chance to make a draw or go all in with my last copie of bolt. He had mentor, the stack become big, storm count to he had 3 StP with snappie and a FoW and Fluster. My counterwall was not as big. Winter orb was not enough to keep him of Mana. I was one mana/1Life Short of winning in the end. Felt like i throwed the game somwhere but tuff to say when. 1:2
    2. Match against 4Cloam. G1: stifle, waste, Goose->win. G2: he keeps double chalice double mox D. Hand. I have Ancient Grudge. Play Ancient Grudge, flashback, play goose. Counter Knight with Fow, Pierce Liliana->win. 2:0
    3. This was another weird match. He played Shardles Agent with 4 Tarmogoyfs. He drew em all. My list is not well prepeared to fight tarmogoyf. G1 i divert a T2hymn from him beeing on the play and still loose to tarmogoyf :/ Maybe raw CA is not what this deck wants to have. Lost another test match where the exact same thing happended the night bevore. 0:2
    4. UW miracles. Opponent has all cards full artered. Played AK miracles. i resolve goose and hit him hard. 2:0
    5. Death and Taxes. This is funny because i wanted to test the winter orb tech against D&T and hat no way to do so bevore the tournament. G1 i have double Delver. He has flicker T3 and T4 i Dismember one and fly in for the win with bolt. G2 he hast vial followed by waste/waste/port/port/ enough plains. i cant cast any spell and get beat'n out. G3 i resolve winter orb T2 and grind him out on mana, still a close game. It was super importatnt that he had no acces to Rishadan Port thanx to winter orb. 2:1
    6. Leovold/Dark depths grind pile. G1 i drew 2 lands in 25 cards, and my opponent had 2 Wastelands. still pretty close with him having Fow for my last lethal Forked bolt top deck, after i saved my volc from waste with bolt->daze my bolt->cant pay :_(. Game two he had DD combo i had no answer. 0:2
    7. Burn. just had enough t beat burn. 2:0

    So after all i want to cut the divert, i lost games where the card did all it could. even in testing i lost games after killing enemys TNN with it or rederecting hymn.
    Not having Tarmogoyf felt awkward against Shardless agent but i know Mandrills is so much better against grixis control and Delver. I had 2-3 cenarious where mandrills where cutting gooses ability to go big but hey still more power on board with mandirlls, also protects you from edict against black decks which cant push either of the creatures. Oh another fun thing, my mandrills got assassins trophied 3 times in the tournament... lets see where this cards leads.

    it is really tuff to say where canadian wants to be at the moment. Mandrills and Tarmogoyf is a meta call but like me you can just get the wrong opponent and loose. Lets say you meet Eldrazi and other tarmogoyfs wou will cry with mandirlls in the 75, lets say you meet grixis all day you will cry about Tarmogoyf cause he dies to push and can not trample over TNN and Pyro and deal dmg under strix. After all i think Tarmogoyf is the saver choice in an open field because you will not auto loose to other Tarmo/big creature decks meanwhile you can compensate not having a mandrills much better.

    Future changes to my list will look like. -1 divert, +1 Stifle. -1 Spell pierce -2 Mandrills, +3 Tarmogoyf. SB stays as it is: 2 Pyro, 2 Surgical, 1 electrickery, 1 Ancient grudge, 1 null rod, 2 winter orb, 1 Destructive Rev (Good against B2B and weird single ensnaring Bridges from UWx decks), 1 TNN, 1 Izzet staticaster, 1 dismember, 1 vapor snag, 1 fluster storm.
    Thanks for the write up bro. I might have to try Winter Orb against DnT soon.
    WESTCOAST
    DREDGE Playlist

  19. #2719

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I'm playing Canadian without Stifle and have to say I have much more success with it than with 3-4 Stifle main. Here's my list:

    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Nimble Mongoose
    3 True-Name Nemesis
    2 Tarmogoyf
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    2 Preordain
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    2 Spell Pierce
    1 Spell Snare
    4 Lightning Bolt
    1 Forked Bolt
    1 Dismember
    1 Tarfire
    9 Fetchlands
    3 Volcanic Island
    3 Tropical Island
    4 Wasteland


    Reasons for not playing Stifle:
    1. holding onto it while our opponent isn't fetching does not grow Nimble Mongoose and seems to be a little to reactive for a tempo deck.
    2. Stifle is against decks like D&T, Elves, Goblins or Eldrazi a pretty weak to dead card. Also against control decks I personally think if you are not on the play Stifle is a very weak card. You delay maybe your opponent on one turn but you also delay yourself by holding onto it instead of Pondering or Brainstorming. Also pro players like LSV always say that Stifle is not a good card so I kind of try to build a list without it. There is this case by saying Stifle is good against Miracles and Storm but I feel like only in those 2 matchups Stifle is actually a good card how I want it to be.

    The reason for 19 lands is I build this list to have a much better matchup against control decks so I want to play 3 TNN which are great. To support 3 TNN I like having 19 lands especially because you do not Stifle opponents Wastelands. I also like Nimble Mongoose now in the current meta. Shroud means a lot, only cards which work are Terminus, Diabolic Edict and Council's Judgement so I like to play a tempo deck right now with Nimble Mongoose. I used to play UR Delver with Swiftspears but Swiftspear is since the bannings very nerfed and Mongoose feels like the better Swiftspear currently. So at the end the idea is to play a tempo - midrange deck while playing resilient creatures (Mongoose and TNN) but without relying to much on the mana denial plan. You play the most efficient spells and creatures and also one of the last remaining blue decks who can actually play 8 cc1 creature to preasure opponents. Also I actually think the deck is better than Grixis Delver right now because Mongoose is a much more resilient threat than Delver, Lavamancer or Pyromancer and right now it is all about beating control decks.

    Has anybody experience with a non Stifle version and can give some ideas or insights?

  20. #2720

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Tournament report 24/11/18 to prove that not all of the content is moving to discord

    A local store runs a regular monthly event with decent prize. They are normally pretty popular because the store loyalty program means that a lot of people get to enter for free (play FNM to get a stamp on your card, enough stamps get free/discount entry, that kind of thing). This month the event was team trios and my friends had the stamps, so I took the legacy seat.

    I'm attending the big Orlov tournament in Bejing in a few weeks and this is probably going to be the last tournament I get to play before then so I wanted to get some testing in.

    4 Delver
    4 Mongoose
    4 Tarmogoyf

    4 Force
    4 Daze
    4 Stifle
    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Bolt

    2 Snare
    2 Pierce
    2 Seal of Fire

    8 Fetchlands
    3 Volcanic
    3 Tropical
    4 Wasteland

    2 Ancient Grudge
    2 TNN
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Honden of Infinite Rage
    1 Winter Orb
    1 Barbarian Ring
    1 Compost

    I added another Snare to the maindeck again because it's good against nearly everything. I was hesitant to play too many Snare after the team PT but most of the Shadow hype has died down and a lot of them are maindecking Hymn now anyway

    Round 1 DNT : My game score 1-1, Team match score 0-1
    I know this player, he has a decent amount of legacy experience and plays DNT and nothing else.
    G1 is long grindy game which I lose after he topdecks better and gets SOFAI equipped
    G2 Is also quite grindy and he untaps with Mom at a low life total facing down my Goyf but has no other board or cards. I Daze his Batterskull and Stifle Recruiter and then topdeck Delver which flips and kills him in 2 hits.
    Unfortunately both of my teammates lost before G2 ended so we don't start G3.

    Recently vs DNT I have been boarding out a mix of Dazes, Pierce, FoW and Stifle.
    While it may be possible to argue that some of these cards are overall better than the others vs DNT, each of these cards does have some application in the matchup. The situation I want to avoid is to have e.g. multiple Stifle or multiple FoW against an opponent's particular draw where these answers don't line up well. You hedge against this situation by boarding out a mix of different reactive cards even though it looks kind of stupid to cut 2 Daze 2 Stifle 2 FoW 2 Pierce. I've been trying this for a while and I think I'm happy with it

    Round 2 Jund : My game score 2-0, Team match score 1-1
    G1 I just RUG him out with Stifle into beatdowns into my Snare/Pierce lining up vs his Hymn etc, I think he gets a decay off but I have another threat to follow it up and I have the Daze for his Liliana
    G2 He gets way too fancy trying to Surgical my mana. He does manage to cut me off green when my hand has 4 green spells but I brainstorm 2 of them away and he's stuck with his only lands as Grove and basic forest. I resolve TNN and hold up Pierce/Snare for the rest of the game. He never draws out of it and 2 bolts finish him off.
    Unlike Round 1 I am finished before my teammates, so I get to join forces with my modern Hollow One player to figure out a line to beat Bogles, and we barely get there.

    Round 3 UR Delver: My game score 2-0, Team match score 2-1
    This list features Risk Factor, Stormchaster Mage, Delver, Swiftspear, Chain Lightning
    Both games I try to play the control role because I know that if I can deal with his threats at a high lifetotal I have Tarmogoyf and Mongoose that are unanswerable and bigger than his prowess creatures. I win both games at 1 life after big counterwars in the final turn, despite mulliganing to 5 in game 2. I have to call the judge over in g2 to double check what happens if we draw the game from Price of Progress killing us both.
    I think watching this match from both sides would have been very instructive for someone learning to play Delver. My opponent was probably a bit of a Legacy novice as he seemed to be fetching every turn only to thin his deck, and playing out all his lands asap instead of holding them for Brainstorm. He did need a decent amount of mana to resolve Risk Factor through Pierce and so on but he ended both games pretty flooded when I only had my minimum 2-3 lands and a grip full of counters.

    Round 4 Eldrazi Post: Game Score 2-1, Team match score 3-1
    This round we are playing against probably the most talented team in the room, unfortunately my opponent is playing Post so doesn't get much opportunity to leverage it.
    G1 I play Turn 1 Goose on the play and have no answer to Ancient Tomb into Chalice, I play Goyf on turn 2 and then turn 3 I spam a fetch and and Seal of Fire and another Goose into the Chalice, it looks like I might be able to aggro him out but I can't find any cantrip to make Tarmogoyf 4/5, so he can stick TKS and stalls into Ulamog
    G2 I just have the nut of turn 1 delver into disruption and my opponent loses the game with 0-1 lands in play and maybe 1 other permanent (Grim Monolith I think)
    G3 is a weird situation where I have Grudge in hand but my opponent is able to resolve both Chalice on 1 and Trinisphere and Monolith. I use Grudge on Monolith first to cut my opponent off Ulamog mana but then he resolves Chalice on 2. At this point the only spell in my deck I can cast is Force - and TNN, which I topdeck immediately. Thanks to Ancient Tombs dealing him like 10+ damage over the game he only has 1 turn to draw All is Dust and doesn't find it. Maybe Grudge on Monolith was playing too scared and I should've gone after one of the lockpieces instead.
    Hollow One lost to Kelvin Chew on his Bant deck so for the first time today I get to watch standard, which I currently have no idea about. We cast some dopey goblins vs control and all 3 of our team miss lethal with Banefire (we can sac off our whole board with prospector to fuel it, this just totally flies over my head despite playing with Prospector in legacy plenty of times). The opponent can't do anything in the 1 turn we give them so we win anyway.

    Round 5 Miracles: Game Score 0-2, Team match score 3-2

    This round was an absolute clusterfuck

    The last 2 Miracles opponents I have played IRL have had maindeck TNN which is super annoying (and is not typical AFAIK?). At one point my opponent played CJ into my Mongoose with 2 islands behind. I Pierce the CJ so he will tap out and then I can Daze the CJ. As soon as I cast the Pierce my opponent instantly snaps off Counterspell on it instead of just paying 2. I feel pretty good about this but then the aforementioned TNN comes down. I commit to the board more and force him to Terminus his own TNN away but then I lose when B2B resolves.
    G2 I play turn 1 Volcanic and my opponent plays turn 1 island. I play wasteland on turn 2 and my opponent Brainstorms in my endphase. I Pierce it (debatably wrong) and after the Brainstorm is countered my opponent plays Surgical on my Pierce, before he even untaps and draws. Somehow the 1 other Pierce in my 75 is in my hand and I effectively lose a few turns later when he resolves Jace.

    Our Experimental Frenzy man at the other end of the table has won his match but unfortunately for our modern seat Burning Inquiry is not a card you want in your deck when your opponent is playing Stinkweed Imp.

    Final individual result: 3-1 (+1 DNF)

    Thoughts on the maindeck:
    - Not playing TNN main seemed to be good just for curve reasons but I board in TNN for every SB game. I think this is still correct but not totally sure about it
    - 2 Snare was good. 2 Pierce is okay and 1 Pierce 1 Preordain is also something I would be happy to play, or maybe even 1 Pierce 1 Opt. I tried predict for a bit but I think it's too clunky at 2 mana.
    - Tarmogoyf showed its strengths vs the chalice deck
    - Seal of Fire was okay for clocking with Tarmogoyf (but not essential, it didn't help beat any Angler/Dismember but almost made a difference vs TKS in g1 vs Post). In some spots Seal were useful for burning face. I think it would be reasonable to cut them for e.g. 1 Abrade 1 Dismember but having 1 mana removal is v good vs DNT/Elves and in Delver mirrors. (Also not paying 4 life is relevant in enough of the creature matchups). So something like Chain Lightning would also be acceptable.
    - I used to think Miracles was a favoured MU but it doesn't seem to be the case anymore even though my plan hasn't really changed against it. I think the newer high amounts of maindeck B2B are part of the reason, as the number of must-answer cheap-ish haymakers in the deck has really increased a lot. I think this might also be because I have gotten overconfident and my SB has slowly drifted away from cards that are good in the MU.
    - Barbarian Ring and Loam might have to go into the too-cute basket. I have been burned by loam not doing anything early enough times (specifically compared to library) and while Barbarian Ring does a lot of different things, it isn't particularly good at any of them.
    - I'm not sure that Compost is good enough
    - I think I want more answers to Miracles and I also want to confirm whether the 'full-shroud' plan is still what we want to be doing

    Maindeck: same (possibly cutting 1 pierce for another cantrip and you can tweak the non-bolt removal)

    SB
    2 Grudge (Very significant benefit to being RG)
    2 Surgical
    2 TNN
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Cage
    1 Winter Orb
    1 Honden
    (Above is same as before)
    1 Sylvan Library (Replacement for Loam)
    1 Extra Removal (Staticaster, Electrickery, Forked Bolt, RoughNTumble etc, replacement for Barbarian Ring. Could be Abrade maybe but I don't think that's needed. Dead/Gone is also an option). [EDIT: Grim Lavamancer seems perfect actually, anybody have any strong opinions on this card?]
    1 Additional Winter Orb (Should increase win % a significant amount vs Miracles, especially seeing as with AK they have so much air in the deck now, effectively a replacement for Compost because it should also be strategically effective for going full shroud vs the black decks, can come in vs DNT).
    1 Red Elemental Blast (I've been disappointed with flusterstorm a lot lately being unable to stop counterbalance, PWs, and TNN, and I think even in the Hymn matchups being able to answer Strix on the stack is worth not answering Hymn/Kolaghans, and I don't know what other matchup I am boarding in flusterstorm where REB isn't acceptable, Elves maybe, Burn? REB just seems better at the moment).

    Thanks for reading
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 11-26-2018 at 06:56 AM.

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