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Thread: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

  1. #341

    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Guys, Dismember is so good, and it's been played to plenty of top8 and first place finishes. Stephen Mann played 2 copies to 1st out of >300 people at SCG Atlanta...with 2 G. Probe as well!

    It is, short of Tarfire, our only 1 mana Instant Speed removal on top of Lightning Bolt. This is important because we always want that one mana up for Stifle or Spell Pierce, right? So we don't play our Chain LIghtning or Forked Bolt on their creature and hold back. But sometimes they don't do anything and we reallllly wish we'd have had killed the creature on our turn. But how could we have known? More instant speed removal helps remedy this.

    It is active on Tropical Island.

    It kills creatures that made it through a Spell Snare, yes, and it does not kill a RiP or Counterbalance, sure, but it also kills plenty of creatures who do not cost 2 mana.

    There are large portions shared in the Spell Snare to Dismember Venn Diagram, but they are both their own cards, suitable for different metas, and they are both VERY effective cards.

    Also, the life loss is not a very big deal for the trade-off of opening up the ground for Nimble and Goyf to attack or taking out an early, opposing Delver.

    It doesn't double as dmg to the opponent, but it does function very effectively in the way StP and PtE was used in Zoo lists...to open up the ground for your big beaters.

    If your meta has lots of SFM//Batterskull, Mother of Runes, and Tarmogoyfs it is a very reliable pick.


    Now, compromise. If you are playing Dismember over Spell Snare (though you can play it in addition to!) then I would absolutely advise at least a singleton Krosan Grip in the Side to help against Counterbalance and RiP.

  2. #342
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by ShiftyKapree View Post
    Couldn't agree with you more about spell snare. How do you guys feel about cutting grafdiggers cage from the board and bringing submerge down to two cards? And why does everyone seem to think flusterstorm is so good in the sideboard? I never found it as useful as spell pierce
    Good luck playing against Elves without Cage. Also, the last time I went to a six-rounder without having a Cage, I met Dredge in round1.True story...
    Submerge is still good even with Maverick out of pictrue. There are quite some Goyf.dec. Otoh, it may be cut to two, depends on your metagame.
    Flusterstorm counters what Pierce cannot. It's good when you need to resolve your Stifle and it's solid against Terminus. Not to speak about Storm mu.

  3. #343
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    graf cage = 1 drop counterspell vs NO, GSZ! real good vs elves! used to ran 2 when greenmen are rampant in my meta...
    and since there has been a huge drop of mavs, elves in my meta...this lead me to 1 graf, 1 surgical as my gy hate as of the moment...

    and ill be trying out

    SIMIC CHARM over the 3rd submerge...
    lots of applications ... as it can protect our crits from decay, pump tnn or delver in time of need and bounce annoying crits without any condition..
    of course it's fow friendly too : )
    ive been testing this card with my infect deck and i kinda like what it gives whenever i draw it..
    tests results to follow...soon.
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  4. #344
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Been playing alot of true-name rug lately on modo (no goyf, 4 mongoose 4 nemesis).

    It is really good. Feels alot like we get to go in the old rug grind control wagon pre-decay because our threats can no longer be murdered spontaneously. Am something like 6-0 against miracles who has a really hard time with all the shroud creatures. I am even experimenting with removing the delvers in some matchups (jund f.egs.) where you can blank 1 million spot removals and make them rage as they die to nemesis :-).

    Still need to make sure i have good plans for shardless, esper and d&T....

    Not going back to tarmogoyfs.....

  5. #345
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    Re: [DTB] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Goddik View Post
    Been playing alot of true-name rug lately on modo (no goyf, 4 mongoose 4 nemesis).

    It is really good. Feels alot like we get to go in the old rug grind control wagon pre-decay because our threats can no longer be murdered spontaneously. Am something like 6-0 against miracles who has a really hard time with all the shroud creatures. I am even experimenting with removing the delvers in some matchups (jund f.egs.) where you can blank 1 million spot removals and make them rage as they die to nemesis :-).

    Still need to make sure i have good plans for shardless, esper and d&T....

    Not going back to tarmogoyfs.....
    I really want to test this as well, but I really don't want to drop sixty bucks on two more Nemesises (Nemesi?).
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    Canadian Threshold Primer!
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  6. #346

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    What changes do you normally make for TNN RUG? Something like: +1 Island, +4 TNN, -4 Goyf, -1 flex (forked bolt?)

    I'm going to drop one Submerge in my SB this week for 1 Dismember. Yes the life-loss hurts, but I'd rather take 4 to kill a Goyf than have to endure the tempo loss (of not being able to attack) AND still be taking 4 per turn from a live goyf. Snare is still our best card against Goyf, RiP, Counterbalance, Infernal Tutor, Thalia, Chalice on 1, SFM, Jitte...the list goes on and on. I won't be cutting it anytime soon.

    Quick question, how do you guys normally SB against Shardless BUG (or the variant that I hit at my LGS, 4-color cascade w/ bolts and BBE)? I run the 2/2/2 pierce/snare/FB split variety with the following SB:
    1 ofs: Ancient Grudge, Dismember (new), Flusterstorm, Grafdigger's, K-Grip, Sulfur Elemental, Surgical Extraction, V-Clique
    2 ofs: Rough//Tumble, Submerge
    3 ofs: REB/Pyroblast

    I missed going 3-0 last week at my LGS after getting roflstomped by this guy with 4c cascade. BBE -> Shardless Agent -> Izzet charm killing my VClique seems strong...

  7. #347

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHeff View Post
    What changes do you normally make for TNN RUG? Something like: +1 Island, +4 TNN, -4 Goyf, -1 flex (forked bolt?)
    That's about right. I'm currently trying:

    4 Delver
    4 Nimble
    3 TNN

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Stifle
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    2 Spell Pierce
    4 Lightning Bolt
    2 Dismember

    2 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Ponder

    4 Waste, 8 Fetch, 6 Dual, 1 Island

    This way, chances of blind flipping Delver remains at 50%. Also, when compared to a typical 54 Thresh + 2/2/2 Spell Pierce, Snare, Forked, the Blue count has been increased by 2. Additionally, the Dismember is active on Island, providing us Creatures, Disruption and Draw, and Removal all w/ a single Basic.

    The concession with a list that runs basic Island is, if you wish to trick your opponent with misleading fetches, is in using the far more expensive Deltas and Strands as opposed to getting away with Foothills and Tarns. I believe in this tactic, but I sold my Blue Onslaught fetches a long time ago and will not buying them again.

    ---

    Also, Purgatory, I believe (without looking it up, so I can't be sure) that it would be Nemeses. The "-i" ending is usually tacked onto plural forms of words like "colossus" or "octopus", words with "-us".

    ---

    Poxy, nice spot on Simic Charm. Let us know how it goes.

  8. #348
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    How is this not a DTB still, where do they collect the data for their selection of DTB? The deck has been top 8ing SCG circuit for awhile now.

  9. #349

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by ShiftyKapree View Post
    How is this not a DTB still, where do they collect the data for their selection of DTB? The deck has been top 8ing SCG circuit for awhile now.
    TCDecks.net

    There was a good string of top8s in the SCGs, but there are a lot of other tournaments to consider. For instance, there were 0 Canadian in the most recent BoM, which was instead populated with DnT and Miracles. There were also zero Canadian in the most recent SCG, with a top8 comprised of several Team America and Deathblade builds. And if you look at the 'Tier Decks' as supplied by TCDecks itself, indeed, these four archetypes are the primary movers of the format's top tables right now.

    The deck is doing better, but I don't know if it will ever regain the dominance it once had (2007 and 2011-Winter 2013), and may only occasionally be a "DtB".

    Nonetheless, that doesn't mean it's not a solid pick.

  10. #350
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by carefulmug View Post
    TCDecks.net

    There was a good string of top8s in the SCGs, but there are a lot of other tournaments to consider. For instance, there were 0 Canadian in the most recent BoM, which was instead populated with DnT and Miracles. There were also zero Canadian in the most recent SCG, with a top8 comprised of several Team America and Deathblade builds. And if you look at the 'Tier Decks' as supplied by TCDecks itself, indeed, these four archetypes are the primary movers of the format's top tables right now.

    The deck is doing better, but I don't know if it will ever regain the dominance it once had (2007 and 2011-Winter 2013), and may only occasionally be a "DtB".

    Nonetheless, that doesn't mean it's not a solid pick.
    Ya they're kind of late if there using that data because as of now Rug is in 5th place right below team America. If the trend keeps following the way it does, as much as I hate to admit this on the sole fact I hate TNN we might have to use him. Or do some serious changes to our sideboard which I now run needles and surgicals, I no longer run Graf because I never see elves and feel it is a wasted slot it's not as versatile as other cards

  11. #351
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    A deck going out of favor and losing DTB status is a good thing for those who still play the deck*. Less people will be playing cards geared towards beating this matchup.

    *assuming of course that the reason is due to the deck is simply going through a period of declining popularity, not because new cards or metagame shifts invalidate the entire strategy.

    In RUG's case, I think it's just because lately people want to play BUG variants, TNN, or decks geared towards beating TNN (e.g. Miracles). RUG is still a great deck. All it really needs is a decent card to deal with a resolved TNN and I think it will go back to being a regular Tier 1 option. Perhaps they will print a color shifted Sulfur Elemental that does +1/-1 to Blue Creatures. Until then you'll need to be able to beat the card on the stack via counterspells, or play TNN yourself or more evasive threats. Cards like Abrupt Decay, Deathrite Shaman, and Rest in Peace have definitely put a damper on the power of RUG, but the deck is far from dead.

  12. #352
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I have never seen a deck tumble this far from DTB status within a month. It's one thing to fall out, but it was 16th place in the most recent period.

    I'm sure this is just a fluke, but this is one hell of a statistical oddity!

  13. #353

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Part of the reason why RUG doesn't put up a lot of numbers I think is just because of the skill level. I mean when you think about it you can screw up with BUG and still have outs probably in the form of Abrupt Decay, Liliana, TNN, JTMS, etc. Now if you screw up with RUG and miss that crucial fetch that you need to stifle (maybe you don't have an actual answer for the play that comes after that fetch resolves) then you're usually dead. The whole idea of tripping up the opponent while simultaneously advancing your board state is like playing catch with a grenade. Eventually someone will end up blown up hand. If you don't stifle their fetch, leave countermagic (spell snare, spell pierce) up at the right time, etc then you'll probably be the one that's dead.

  14. #354
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Contract Killer View Post
    Part of the reason why RUG doesn't put up a lot of numbers I think is just because of the skill level. I mean when you think about it you can screw up with BUG and still have outs probably in the form of Abrupt Decay, Liliana, TNN, JTMS, etc. Now if you screw up with RUG and miss that crucial fetch that you need to stifle (maybe you don't have an actual answer for the play that comes after that fetch resolves) then you're usually dead. The whole idea of tripping up the opponent while simultaneously advancing your board state is like playing catch with a grenade. Eventually someone will end up blown up hand. If you don't stifle their fetch, leave countermagic (spell snare, spell pierce) up at the right time, etc then you'll probably be the one that's dead.
    There's no such thing as a deck in Legacy that doesn't have a high skill cap.

  15. #355

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by lordofthepit View Post
    There's no such thing as a deck in Legacy that doesn't have a high skill cap.

    This is probably true, but, comparatively, one might argue Canadian's skill cap is higher than many other Legacy decks. I think that was what Contract was suggesting.

    But I don't know if that's the reason for Canadian's decline. Both Maverick and Canadian are hard decks to play optimally, yet both of them absolutely dominated the rankings for months and months and months.

    CK is right about the unforgiving nature of Canadian. Playing the deck is like tight rope walking across two very tall buildings. You're looking around and see that you are higher than anyone else by an incomprehensible margin. But, like Contract alluded, one slip...and you're done.

    Still, for a long time, there were a lot of tight rope walkers making it from one building to the next.

  16. #356

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13650&iddeck=100269

    8 Bolt list with 2 Vapor Snag. 3 Spell Pierce in the Sideboard. I like it.

    3 Mind Harness in place of Submerge. I like that, too.

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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by carefulmug View Post
    http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13650&iddeck=100269

    8 Bolt list with 2 Vapor Snag. 3 Spell Pierce in the Sideboard. I like it.

    3 Mind Harness in place of Submerge. I like that, too.
    Why MindHarness? It wasn't widely played even back when Mav was real deck. But now? Is there any other creature than Goyf that one may steal? All other important creatures are non-green, except for DRS, which is an annoying creature, of course it is, but it should be bolted, not stolen.

    edit: I've thought about Vapor Snag a bit in the past. Namely after being defeated by Tombstalkers and/or Decays. I'm undecided on the card, but it's definitely pretty solid choice.

  18. #358

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by lordofthepit View Post
    There's no such thing as a deck in Legacy that doesn't have a high skill cap.
    Right I completely understand that. Every deck in legacy has a substantial skill level to be achieved to even pilot them remotely well. The main thing that I've noticed from my own experience is how many critical turns there are in RUG about leaving correct spells up in anticipation of spell x. This is probably true for a lot of other decks that I just haven't piloted to understand. I've borrowed and played with some of my friends decks and they all seem to have more "resilience". I mean RUG can be put to a grinding halt if they resolve something as simple as Goyf or TNN.

  19. #359
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by carefulmug View Post
    That's about right. I'm currently trying:

    4 Delver
    4 Nimble
    3 TNN

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Stifle
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    2 Spell Pierce
    4 Lightning Bolt
    2 Dismember

    2 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Ponder

    4 Waste, 8 Fetch, 6 Dual, 1 Island

    This way, chances of blind flipping Delver remains at 50%. Also, when compared to a typical 54 Thresh + 2/2/2 Spell Pierce, Snare, Forked, the Blue count has been increased by 2. Additionally, the Dismember is active on Island, providing us Creatures, Disruption and Draw, and Removal all w/ a single Basic.

    The concession with a list that runs basic Island is, if you wish to trick your opponent with misleading fetches, is in using the far more expensive Deltas and Strands as opposed to getting away with Foothills and Tarns. I believe in this tactic, but I sold my Blue Onslaught fetches a long time ago and will not buying them again.

    ---

    Also, Purgatory, I believe (without looking it up, so I can't be sure) that it would be Nemeses. The "-i" ending is usually tacked onto plural forms of words like "colossus" or "octopus", words with "-us".

    ---

    Poxy, nice spot on Simic Charm. Let us know how it goes.
    I've taken this build for a few spins around the Cockatrice block, and although the competition leaves something to desire on the client, I'm very impressed. I've won plenty of games that I'd outright just lose if TNN was Goyf.
    Currently playing:

    Canadian Threshold Primer!
    Team America

    My blog about Legacy, limited, EDH and stuff!

  20. #360
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I stopped running goyf, I've come to terms that he is no longer good. On too TNN or YP
    My current list:
    4 Delver
    4 Goose
    4 TNN

    2 spell pierce
    4 BS
    4 Ponder
    4 Daze
    4 FOW
    4 Lightning bolt
    4 Stifle
    1 Forked Bolt
    1 Fire/Ice
    1 Life from the loam

    1 Island
    3 Trop
    3 Volc
    4 Misty
    4 Tarn
    4 Wasteland

    SB:
    1 ancient grudge
    1 null rod
    1 tormod's crypt
    1 surgical
    1 grafdiggers
    1 K grip
    3 Submerge
    2 REB
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Pithing Needle or Sulfur Elemental
    1 EE
    1 Firestorm or E-trickery

    This isn't a final list for me, putting more testing into it tonight and tomorrow. The power of the basic island and TNN maindeck is a powerhouse and I now feel comfortable keeping 1 land hands and cracking for an island playing my delver and passing the turn. So if I do miss the land drop I still can bs or stifle.

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