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Thread: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

  1. #401

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Hello all,

    Been lurking for a bit, first time poster, big RUG Delver fan.

    I've really enjoyed the discussion regarding gitaxian probe up to this point, I run two of them along with three spell pierce one forked bolt for my combo-heavy meta.

    The reason I'm posting is because of some Caleb Durward said on his latest banned series videos. In match 3 game 1 of the gush video Caleb begins a short thought on the idea of playing probe and going over 60 cards.

    Now obviously this goes against the conventional wisdom of why we play the minimum in the first place but when you look at the incredibly low opportunity cost of drawing gitaxian probe vs. the card you would have rather drawn the idea gains some merit.

    Anyways just wanted to kick the idea around in here and see what shakes out.

    Video here, about 33 seconds in
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzGEFxfno-Y

  2. #402

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    @forcing a top or not:
    Jacob wilson is right,top requires a ton of mana each turn so it is ok to let it resolve in the early turns.
    However,in the mid/lategame when our opponent has already a solid manabase i counter senseis top if possible because otherwise its going to be unfair...

  3. #403

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by BKclassic View Post
    -Do you guys Force of Will Sensei’s Divining Top against Miracles? My old plan against Miracles was to let Top resolve since it uses up their mana and fight over Counterbalance. However, I am thinking that FoW’ing Top helps keep the game in Phase II and is therefore where I want to be. I will need to figure out a way to up my game to beat the mighty Oarsmen. Possibly the 2nd Surgical Extraction is greedy and could be a Sulfuric Vortex or something, but I really like Surgicals against combo and I already have 7 spells to bring in against Miracles. I would like to just do a better job of executing a phase II gameplan.
    I never Force top unless they have mulliganed. I've found that miracles when they mulligan even to just 6 the hand (if it has top) is something like: top, 1 - 3 lands, 1 - 3 business spells. More to the point their hands when they mulligan seem to be rough due to the amount of dead cards they have until mid to late game. When you force top it might inevitably become a wasteland or two because they can't find lands.

    What do you guys think of the 4 probe build that took third at Indianapolis? I can see the value in 2 - 3 so that you sufficiently find 1 per game, but 4 seems excessive. Eventually there's a point where multiple probes have diminished returns in only revealing 1 card that you may have not known. It just seems like you lose some percentage of value when running a full play set due to the consistency of drawing probe (I know it sounds ass backwards and probably is ).

    Another important card that just became legal is Council's Judgment. Not only does it deal with TNN, but our geese just got a little less shroud-y. Do you guys think this defeats the purpose of trying to run TNN? I mean the only reason we want it is because it has the shroud ability of goose and the wings of a delver. Take the shroud part away and what do you have? A 3 mana delver which is really bad. I mean if people see TNN mainboard then they will side in 2 - 3 of these against us at which point more mana efficient versions of our creatures become the go-to again. This is all just hypothetical and only changes the esper match up, but other colors also have answers to it already that are equally bad for us (edict effects, Liliana, toxic deluge, etc).

  4. #404

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    @4 probes:
    Nothing is worse than chaining probes,especially in the mirror like we saw on camera last week because you fall behind in the race.
    You just want to have a peek at the opponents hand once in a game,hopefully on turn 1 where probe is at its best.
    2-3 would still be the best number i guess to draw 1 copy during a game.

    @Councils judgement:another sorcer y for 3 mana?
    Should be an easy target for spell pierce :)
    It's as clunky as vindicate

  5. #405

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Hey guys. I've been thinking about picking up RUG. I was wondering is there any particular points I should know about playing against Elves and Death and Taxes. I'm a little worried about the latter since games seem very swingy and/ or bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysandros View Post
    I'm a crusty "old" player who would play nothing but Vintage, Legacy and 93/94 if I could, so I'm probably biased...but I'll never understand the draw to Modern. It's the Communist Soviet Union of MtG formats.
    In regards to Legacy:
    Quote Originally Posted by GrimoirePath View Post
    I dont know, I guess I like the anarchistic, outlaw format that allows everything and can thrive with or without the papal blessing.

  6. #406

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90 View Post
    Hey guys. I've been thinking about picking up RUG. I was wondering is there any particular points I should know about playing against Elves and Death and Taxes. I'm a little worried about the latter since games seem very swingy and/ or bad.
    Main deck forked bolts go a long way in both these match up, and potentially catch 2 for 1's or allow you to kill a single creature through mother runes. Side boarded rough tumbles can swing these matchups from slightly unfavorable to slightly favorable.
    Submerge is an allstar against elves as you get to submerge dryad arbors and mess their day up. Artifact mutation is my haymaker of choice against death and taxes where resolving it normally means a win the following turn.

    Against death and taxes the most important card is stoneforge, counter it on sight as you will reach the point in the game where they just hard cast batterskull, I've also noticed them getting sword of fire and Ice on a first attempt a lot so be careful as that is capable of being cast the next turn whether or not you kill stoneforge. After that mother is the next biggest card, if you can take care of those two you have a decent shot of winning.
    Additionally opening hands which are a little land heavy are fine because their mana denial plan Is better then ours in the match up.

    Against elves glimpse nat. Order and harassing Craterhoof is how they win, so avoid these things. Tarmogoyf tends to be a edict every turn which is good but not amazing. Pierce and daze glimpse even if it doesn't counter it as it makes it harder for them to draw cards with it. Goose is terrible here as even when he reaches a 3/3 he can be double blocked and killed without problem were goyf requires triple or quadruple blocks to kill him.
    Bolts should normally go after Wirewood symbiote, and save your wastes for cradles. Be careful trying to waste bayou's or Savannah's or trying to bolt dryad arbor when quirion ranger is out as they will bounce is response

    It's late here and I'm not sure exactly how well spelled everything is but hopefully this is mildly useful

  7. #407
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Trollking wrote it perfectly, I just want to stress that Forked Bolts (and Artifact Mutations in DnT matchup) are extremely helpful. Speaking of it, if you find your lgs pestered by these two decks, you should play a 54 RUG 2/2/2 Snare/Pierce/FB split as Snare stops annoying two drops (SFM, hardcast Jitte, RiP, Thalia on play), Pierce is a necessary evil due to the other matches (and it still works against StP or Glimpse) and then of course the FBs that clear the way. I'd go as far as playing the 4 FBs just becasue of these two decks.

    Also, Needle is solid, it stops Port/MoR/Jitte/Vail or Symbiote. Rough is amazing, of course. GrafCage for Elves. Grudge for DnT.

    In short: it's about their plan being better than yours, while your critters being better than theirs. Force them to play YOUR game by YOUR rules. No hordes of 1/1 or 2/1 or 2/2 dudes with crapload of equips/draw/abilities. No way. You'll be having a 5/6 Goyf and it'll be the only creature alive... Everytime they play equip be ready to smash it. Everytime they'll try to combo, fire of the airbags. Everytime they overcommit against your walls, rough away their side of board.

    And... be careful of Cataclysm and Choke.

    PS: Really, I won games simply on Art. Mutation. DnT can't do much when you bolt their dudes and then their desperate attempt to recover is met with "nice play tapping those five mana, now how do you like this card?"

  8. #408

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by trollking21 View Post
    Side boarded rough tumbles can swing these matchups from slightly unfavorable to slightly favorable.

    "Slightly unfavorable" the pre-board matchup vs D&T?
    And it can become "slightly favorable" after having boarded Rough/tumble in?

    Either I'm a terrible RUG player or you played vs D&T very few times.
    Probably the first, honestly.

  9. #409

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by anakyn View Post
    "Slightly unfavorable" the pre-board matchup vs D&T?
    And it can become "slightly favorable" after having boarded Rough/tumble in?

    Either I'm a terrible RUG player or you played vs D&T very few times.
    Probably the first, honestly.
    I have a slightly modified deck list that is just a little better against fair decks
    54 can thresh
    2 forked
    1 snare
    2 pierce
    1 TNN
    SB:
    2 Grafdigger's cage
    2 pyroblast
    2 submerge
    2 rough
    1 fluster storm
    1 artifact mutation
    1 ancient grudge
    1 krosan grip
    1 sulfur elemental
    1 TNN
    1 vendillion clique

    Also against anything with rest in peace I often board out 1 goyf and 1 mongoose while mainting a high creature count

  10. #410

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Thanks guys! Your advice has provided good food for thought and should help a lot. If anyone has anything else to add do chime in. From my play experience elves seems "easier" than death and taxes, though still something to respect. Like I said earlier, the death and taxes match-up has been very swingy for me so far. This could be in part (or in whole) due to my inexperience with Canadian in general. As for my local meta, I know I'll be seeing a good amount of elves so I'll plan accordingly. Not sure if there is any death and taxes at the local meta I'll be playing at but I wanted some advice on the matchup since whenever I've played against it online I seem to get my butt whooped and can't win a match. I'll working on overcoming those pesky hate bears.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysandros View Post
    I'm a crusty "old" player who would play nothing but Vintage, Legacy and 93/94 if I could, so I'm probably biased...but I'll never understand the draw to Modern. It's the Communist Soviet Union of MtG formats.
    In regards to Legacy:
    Quote Originally Posted by GrimoirePath View Post
    I dont know, I guess I like the anarchistic, outlaw format that allows everything and can thrive with or without the papal blessing.

  11. #411

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I find death and taxes very skill intensive but preboard I would only put it like 45/55 in their favor. Post board all depends on what you have in the board

  12. #412

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I find death and taxes to be a far worse MU than elves...there is so much that D&T does to hurt us...i would say game 1 is 60-65% in their favor if it is a competent player. they can pretty easily control the ground. they are running a ton of flyers now with the meta shift to TNN (delver less effective). SoFaI is becoming a main deck inclusion which turns off our removal. thalia is a humongous bitch, and their mana denial plan is superior to ours (stifle against 10 plains ).

    out of the board, things like grudge are useful as well as sulfur elemental and rough tumble. but they really bring in haymakers like RiP. rough tumble seems like a great thing until give pro red with their mom, bounce their thalia, and doesn't hit flickerwisp anyways. spirit of the labyrinth is also potentially very troubling.

  13. #413
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I never seem to have a problem against DNT, I play two needles in the board though which helps greatly against elves aswell. I also still play sulfur elemental

  14. #414
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by ShiftyKapree View Post
    I never seem to have a problem against DNT, I play two needles in the board though which helps greatly against elves aswell. I also still play sulfur elemental
    Best thing about Needles though is that you can name Sneak Attack and Griselbrand. F S&T >_<
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  15. #415

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    I find death and taxes to be a far worse MU than elves...there is so much that D&T does to hurt us...i would say game 1 is 60-65% in their favor if it is a competent player. they can pretty easily control the ground. they are running a ton of flyers now with the meta shift to TNN (delver less effective). SoFaI is becoming a main deck inclusion which turns off our removal. thalia is a humongous bitch, and their mana denial plan is superior to ours (stifle against 10 plains ).

    out of the board, things like grudge are useful as well as sulfur elemental and rough tumble. but they really bring in haymakers like RiP. rough tumble seems like a great thing until give pro red with their mom, bounce their thalia, and doesn't hit flickerwisp anyways. spirit of the labyrinth is also potentially very troubling.
    I will say this Is a match TNN swings I often find myself actively looking for him and winning because of him. For me game 1 couldn't be worse then 55/45 their favor

  16. #416

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Do you guys see RUG becoming more of a force in the meta again?

    I miss playing it

  17. #417
    Rob Rogers
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    It's definitely still a good deck. My buddy Alex got 9th at SCG Providence with a 7-1-1 record. I don't think he even prepared much for the tournament since hes been busy with school and stuff. I do know that he played 4 Gitaxian Probe, which seems weird to me but apparently it works.
    Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly.
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  18. #418

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    These matchup-percentages presume equality of your and your opponents skill level.
    (Of course the death&taxes matchup will turn 70:30 in rugs favour when you get paired against your grandma )
    I did a lot of testings against death&taxes recently and also before true name,even before rest in piece was spoilered.
    Lets face it: the mathup against death&taxes is not great after all.
    There are a ton of other decks i would love to play against rather than the white army.

    If death&taxes and elves are popular in your local meta,increase your rough-count to 3.
    I did when goblin was a deck (now it is not anymore before anyone asks :D )
    True Name Nemesis is the best creature against them if you can resolve it.

  19. #419

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by sawatarix View Post
    These matchup-percentages presume equality of your and your opponents skill level.
    (Of course the death&taxes matchup will turn 70:30 in rugs favour when you get paired against your grandma
    My grandma is blind deaf and more then just a little dead, if you lose 30% of your match ups there you may need to reconsider your deck choice ;P

  20. #420
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    what's everyone playing these days in the sideboard?

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