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Thread: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

  1. #61

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Hello All,

    Yesterday I got a chance to play in a local tournie at my lgs. We had 24 folks show up, which, was good for 5 rounds with a cut to the top 8. I have only been playing RUG Delver for about 6 months and finally feel like I am comfortable with the deck. It feels good to be putting decent performances after the disappointing couples of outings the first times I played the deck. I will always play the 2 Pierce and 2 more burn. Forked Bolt has been my favorite lately. I want to try out Tarfire though. The last two spots in the deck go between Probe and Snare weekly. The sideboard changes about day to day I would say.

    My list for reference:

    //Lands
    x4 Wooded Foothills
    x4 Misty Rainforest
    x3 Volcanic Island
    x3 Tropical Island
    x4 Wasteland
    //Creatures
    x4 Tarmogoyf
    x4 Delver of Secrets
    x4 Nimble Mongoose
    //Core
    x4 Force of Will
    x4 Daze
    x4 Stifle
    x4 Brainstorm
    x4 Ponder
    //Flex
    x2 Spell Pierce
    x2 Gitaxian Probe
    x2 Forked Bolt
    //Sideboard
    x1 Ancient Grudge
    x1 Krosan Grip
    x1 Destructive Revelry
    x3 Submerge
    x3 Pyroblast
    x2 Flusterstorm
    x2 Rough//Tumble
    x2 Grafdigger's Cage


    Couple of changes that I have already decided to make: MD -2 Probe +2 Spell Snare and SB -1 Destructive Revelry, -1 Krosan Grip +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Ancient Grudge. I do like Probe, but I think Snare will give me a little more flexiblity. Hopefully I won't miss having the 9th and 10th cantrips. The other thing I want to do is put Life from the Loam back into the sideboard somehow...

    Round 1: Jund (W)
    G1 - I bolt and wasteland him out of the game while I flip first one Delver and get a buddy to join him to make quick work of him. He tries to Pulse the two of them and I Pierce it.
    G2 - He is mana screwed and I beat him down with a Mongoose that he can't get off the board after I Pierce a Lilliana that would have saved his butt.
    -4 Force of Will -1 Daze || +2 Rough +3 Submerge

    Round 2: Re-Animator (L)
    G1 - I have two Dazes for his Reanimate on a Griselbrand. He pays for one and Reanimate is countered. Next turn he has another Reanimate that I try to Force. He Forces back and that's the game.
    G2 - Stifle and Wasteland set him back a little bit and I sit on a hand with double Force + Flusterstorm w/ no clock though. Eventually he goes for it and has double Force himself.
    -2 Forked Bolt -4 Lightning Bolt -1 Tarmogoyf || +2 Flusterstorm +3 Pyroblast +2 Grafdigger's Cage

    This was my first time playing this match. It felt sort of rough to be honest. Maybe I need to mull more aggressively for Cage? He mentioned after the match that he had bounce that he boarded in though. These two-card combo decks really give me problems for some reason (like Sneak and Show). Does anyone have any advice on playing these? Should I lead with Force? Hold back Daze? Pyroblast the first blue card that I can?

    Round 3: NO/Shardless Bant
    G1 - He double Forces when I try to either Stifle a fetch of his. This puts him up to three mana and he lands a Shardless Agent into a Stoneforge Mystic for Batterskull. All the values. I eventually lose this when he lands another Stoneforge for Sword of Fire and Ice
    G2 - I lay Delver T1. Lay Nimble Mongoose and Forked Bolt his DRS on T2. T3 another Delver, a Ponder to ensure my flip, and a Wasteland. I make short work of him from this position.
    G3 - This turned into a marathon affair. I start out fast and get him down early using Mongeese. He plays a Visions and in the mean time digs deep with Jace/Ponder/Brainstorm. He stablizes at 2 life with some chump blocking from Shardless Agent and Stoneforge Mystic. I stifle the Visions enter the battlefield trigger and dig for the Lightning Bolt to win.
    -4 Force of Will -4 Daze -2 Probe -1 || +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Destructive Revelry, +3 Submerge, +3 Pyroblast, +2 Rough

    After the match he showed me a mini NO package. This was a super janky list. In hindsight I would have left three Force in and left out the 3 Pyroblasts.

    Round 4: BUG Delver (W)
    G1 - I won after making the patented RUG Play of leaving him with no permanents in play after Wasteland, Bolt, and Stifle did work. He wasn't able to recover.
    G2 - He played Delver and then double Hymn for T2 and T3. A Tarmogoyf sealed the deal for me.
    G3 - Another Delver led off for him. I continued to Waste and Stifle him, but he landed a Tarmo. He has a flipped Delver with me at 6 life. My turn I play a Delver and Ponder. With my Ponder I see double Submerge and a Wasteland. He has two lands (Sea and Bayou) in play currently. I choose to keep this. I proceed to Submerge the Delver after he plays a Tarmogoyf. I Submerge the Goyf and Waste away his 2nd land AND last blue source. It was a lucky turnaround and I beat him down for 5 turns with a flipped Delver. Using Pierce to stop any Ponder or Brainstorms.
    -4 Force of Will -1 Daze || +2 Rough +3 Submerge

    Round 5: UR Delver (W)
    G1 - He gets an early Wasteland and I don't have any lands. I got a Delver down before he Wastes me, but it gets Bolted.
    G2 - I basically Bolt every creature that he tried to play Delver, Guide, and Young Pyromancer get Blasted, Forked, and Roughed. Mongoose and Goyf do a lot of work and close out the game eventually.
    G3 - I get an early Delver, but it doesn't flip for a while. Thankfully I have three Dazes in junction with Stifle + Wasteland to stop anything. Again all of his creatures die.

    Pyroblast was awesome both post board games and I kept either a Force or Pierce up for PoP at all times.

    -4 Force of Will -1 Stifle|| +3 Pyroblast +2 Rough\\Tumble

    This was good enough for Top 8 where I was 4th seed.

    Top 8: Miracles (L)
    G1 - I get out a T2 Goyf that is Swords. Follow up with a second Goyf and then I Stifle three Miracle triggers in a row of Terminus and ride the Goyf to victory.
    G2 - RIP and then a Helm combo finish
    G3 - Same thing RIP and Helm combo finish
    -4 Daze, -2 Probe || +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Destructive Revelry, +1 Ancient Grudge, +3 Pyroblast

    Nimble Mongoose was a house for me. Stifle is awesome. I never see going below 4 personally, but understand why some people do. The 2-2-2 configuration is like having the ultimate swiss army knife.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoFireheart View Post
    Ask Obama for a Magic: The Gathering subsidy while being dressed in pajamas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    I don't get it, also how does that help me in Australia?

  2. #62

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by alohazendo View Post
    Have you considered: minus some # of Trickbind and plus a # of Vision Charm? It's one mana cheaper. It allows you to save Dreadnought from Abrupt Decay and its own trigger. It fits the tempo plan by changing opponent's land type to some difficult to use color provider for a turn (best done during their upkeep), and fuels Mongoose, putting 5 cards in gy at instant speed. I used to run a BUG version similar to this build and the surprise factor of VC was a lot of fun, especially the stunted time-walk effect of making their mana useless for a turn.
    I think you're absolutely right, and I had that exact thought last night and reconfigured the list a bit, coming to the following:

    4 delver of secrets
    4 nimble mongoose
    3 phyrexian dreadnought

    4 brainstorm
    4 stifle
    4 vision charm
    4 force of will
    4 daze
    4 lightning bolt

    3 gitaxian probe
    4 ponder

    4 wasteland
    4 misty rainforest
    4 scalding tarn
    3 volcanic island
    3 tropical island

    The Gitaxian Probes accelerate both the Nimble Mongoose's threshold and the Dreadnought's assembly, while giving you information necessary to know whether the Dreadnought's very assembly is the correct play.

  3. #63
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    @ cartothemax: Thanks a lot for your detailed, well written and fine structured report! What have you won for your efforts?

    This was my first time playing this match. It felt sort of rough to be honest. Maybe I need to mull more aggressively for Cage? He mentioned after the match that he had bounce that he boarded in though. These two-card combo decks really give me problems for some reason (like Sneak and Show). Does anyone have any advice on playing these? Should I lead with Force? Hold back Daze? Pyroblast the first blue card that I can?
    You know that your opponenet was kinda lucky, don't you?
    I think that you kept a solid hand. Against this kind of two-card-monte decks it's quite hard to mulligan properly, becasue you may always lack one of the necessary tools, be it protection or threat.


    G1 - I won after making the patented RUG Play of leaving him with no permanents in play after Wasteland, Bolt, and Stifle did work. He wasn't able to recover.
    This should be incorporated into the primer!


    @ carefulmug: Again, I am interested in test results!

    edit: Btw, for anyone playing in Batterskull metagame, I recommend trying one Artifact Mutation. it's especially good against DnT, because they can't counter it, they always got at least some target for it (with Aether Vial being somewhat clunky, but any Sword of A+B is pretty solid and Jitte is still not bad) and contrary to other Wasteland.dec they cannot counter the spell. While I like Destructive Revelry, Artifact Mutation may do much more dmg over the turns, it's far less managable, and with our many removal, they should not be able to do much about the tokens, esp. if there are other creatures to control. In my ride to Top8 I won the game against DnT that would not be won with Grudge (or at least it would take lots of additional turns), while the Mutation was an "I win" button.
    Considering that DnT pilots go for the BSK most of the times, I feel like Mutation is very strong now. It breaks not only their equipment, but also the stalls, and the tokens might chumpblock Thalia ad infinitum while Delver's trying to get there.
    Also, while Grudge is quite powerful due to the flashback, RiP changes this.

  4. #64

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    How's it going everyone,

    I had been playing Team America for a good amount of time, but I was in a bit of a slump with it, so I made the switch to RUG. My 1st time playing it was this last weekend at a SCG Super IQ.(6 rounds, cut to top 8) I lost my win and in to the top 8, due to a game loss(accidently drew an extra card to start game 3, didn't realize it, and played my turn... oops :/

    Anyway, I played the stock RUG list with the 6 flex spots being: 3 Spell Pierce, 2 Forked Bolt, 1 Fire//Ice. And a Sideboard of:

    2 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Grim Lavamancer
    2 Submerge
    2 Rough//Tumble
    1 Vendilion Clique
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Ancient Grudge

    The deck felt very strong, especially since it was my 1st time with the deck(I didn't even play test with it before the tournament)

    The changes I am thinking about making:

    54 card stock RUG list
    6 flex spots: 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Chain Lightning, 2 Forked Bolt

    SIDE:

    2 Submerge
    2 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Rough//Tumble
    2 Sulfuric Vortex
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Vendilion Clique
    1 Life from the Loam, or destructive revelry or Flusterstorm

  5. #65
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Hello Kowitz! Sorry to read about your mistake that cost you so much.
    Interesting sideboard choices.
    I met several LftL decks (frankly just on MWS) and I feel like Surgical Extraction might be a good call for a combo/Loam meta. As my field warrants different weapons, I don't use that many gy slots, but I should never forget about the card. How were the Grims? Is one Grudge enough? How come you used sno FLusterstorm? For your proposed sb, do you feel that 1RR cost of Vortex might be troublesome enough to not warrant two pieces of a card?
    Also, the 2/2 CL/FB split is interesting take, you'll have enough power to burn the oppoenent out, while not losing flexibility against Thalia/elves, and simultaneously you won't put your own Delver into the danger. Seems good.

  6. #66

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    The lavamancers were quite underwhelming for me, but I feel like they can be very strong in certain matchups! And yes, the 1RR might be slightly hard to cast reliably, but I would usually board it in against a deck like miracles, where they have no wastelands, and we need some finishing power after they stabilize. I do however really like the 2 cage and 2 surgical, but I like having access to GY hate, just personal preference I suppose!(surgical can have other uses as well, along with cage being good against elves as well!) I could definitely see myself cutting some stuff for an additional ancient grudge, but maybe enchantment hate is better, to not get blown out by RIP. And if I expect a combo heavy meta, probably find room for flusterstorm, along with another pierce or 2 in the main.


    Sorry if there are any typos, I did this response from my phone!

  7. #67

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by carefulmug View Post
    I think you're absolutely right, and I had that exact thought last night and reconfigured the list a bit, coming to the following:
    I have made some changes... And i am also playtesting, which i didnt loose a game yet.

    4 delver of secrets
    4 nimble mongoose
    3 phyrexian dreadnought

    4 brainstorm
    4 stifle
    TWO vision charm+ONE TRICK
    4 force of will
    4 daze
    4 lightning bolt
    FOUR gitaxian probe
    4 ponder

    4 wasteland
    4 misty rainforest
    4 scalding tarn
    3 volcanic island
    3 tropical island

  8. #68

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    What have you won for your efforts?
    Got myself twenty dollars in store credit. I used to get three Judgement packs hoping for Cabal Therapy (it is an uncommon in the set after all). I instead open two Anger, Brawn, and Envelop. Oh well!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    I think that you kept a solid hand. Against this kind of two-card-monte decks it's quite hard to mulligan properly, becasue you may always lack one of the necessary tools, be it protection or threat.
    Yeah, I agree. Game two I mulled to 6 to a double Force hand. I haven't been able to beat a Sneak and Show or (now) Re-animator deck now. Just hard since they always seem to have it.

    Been meaning to grab one when I can, but I am going to going to pickup an Artifact Mutation Every SFM deck in my meta fetches for Batterskull first.
    Last edited by cartothemax; 04-01-2014 at 09:51 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by DragoFireheart View Post
    Ask Obama for a Magic: The Gathering subsidy while being dressed in pajamas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    I don't get it, also how does that help me in Australia?

  9. #69

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by mextremartini View Post
    I have made some changes... And i am also playtesting, which i didnt loose a game yet.

    4 delver of secrets
    4 nimble mongoose
    3 phyrexian dreadnought

    4 brainstorm
    4 stifle
    TWO vision charm+ONE TRICK
    4 force of will
    4 daze
    4 lightning bolt
    FOUR gitaxian probe
    4 ponder

    4 wasteland
    4 misty rainforest
    4 scalding tarn
    3 volcanic island
    3 tropical island
    That's great to hear it's performing well for you. I have also found the only real wiggle room with this variant seems to be in numbers of Vision Charm//Trickbind//Gitaxian Probe//Dreadnought. I think going over 3 Dreadnought creates for too many clunky hands since we don't want Dreadnought to create a reluctance for us to play our original gameplan--Stifling our opponent off mana. So, really, I guess the numbers only vary between Gitaxian Probe and the Vision Charm//Trickbinds.

    Personally, as much as I like the idea of redundant Stifle effects, as soon as I remembered Vision Charm, I think I'm going to stick to it completely. I've long considered keeping the mana cost in Canadian as low as possible the most important aspect to it's deck building. And, while that would suggest I'd be on board with all 4 Gitaxian Probe, an essentially free spell, in this decklist, I think I'm going to stick with 8 Dreadnought enablers to my 3 Dreadnoughts. The reason for this is mathematic:

    In a deck with 57 cards (3 Gitaxian Probe) and 8 Dreadnought enablers, enablers consist of (8 / 57 = .14) 14% of the deck.

    In a deck with 56 cards (4 Gitaxian Probe), and 7 Dreadnought enablers, enablers consist of (7 / 56 = .125) 12.5% of the deck.

    Because there isn't much else we can cut, I think providing the highest rate of seeing enablers is the most 'correct' way of building this version.

    With that in mind, how does the single Trickbind work? How often have you used the mill and land-based effects of Vision Charm to good use? Are there times when you use a Vision Charm or Stifle effect only to draw a Dreadnought a turn later? Also, what have you been testing against? I think the biggest concern I have right now is going all in against an Abrupt Decay.

    @ Bed Decks: I unfortunately do not have any methods of testing right now (recently moved, don't have MODO or Cockatrice, and have not met a play group), so I invite everyone interested in the list to build it or proxy it up and see for themselves. Personally, after some couple dozen test hands, it looks good, but without an opponent, I can only gauge so well.
    Last edited by carefulmug; 04-01-2014 at 03:27 PM.

  10. #70
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Hey guys, I've been experimenting with the 4 Chain Lightning list, and it has been working pretty well. Playing massive amounts of burn let us save our counterspell for more important stuff. And that additional reach is always welcome. I've won many matches digging for damage when my opponent stabilized the board at 6~7 life.

    The list:

    2 Wooded Foothills
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Misty Rainforest
    3 Volcanic Island
    3 Tropical Island
    4 Wasteland

    4 Nimble Mongoose
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Tarmogoyf

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Force of Will
    4 Daze
    2 Spell Pierce
    4 Stifle
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Lightning Bolt

    SB: 2 Submerge
    SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage/Tormod's Crypt (depends on what I expect to face)
    SB: 2 Pyroblast
    SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
    SB: 2 Rough/Tumble
    SB: 1 Flusterstorm
    SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
    SB: 1 Artifact Mutation
    SB: 1 Pithing Needle
    SB: 1 Vendilion Clique

    I've been tracking records of my latest matches against 7 popular decks:

    Elves 7-3-0
    UW(r) Miracles - 5-4-2
    Deathblade 5-2-0
    Jund 4-5-0
    Patriot 4-2-0
    Team America 6-4-0
    Sneak and Show 3-0-0

    This was playing mostly irl with some dudes on my local store, which 75% are pretty good, and the other 25% are newcomers. But this looked good enough to post here.

    Any advices or criticism? How Dreadnought have been working out?
    Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return

  11. #71

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    So I tried the very rough 4 dreadnaught 4 trickbind build last night with some friends. To say the least it wasn't that great. Against stoneblade he always seemed to have a swords to plowshares either in hand or a snapcaster. The 12 life I gained did buy me a lot of time though that's like 4 turns worth of time against stoneblade. Trickbind was definitely good and caused for some really hard to play through situations for him (I had double waste, stifle and trickbind that game he didn't get past one land). I haven't tested it enough, but I do think the value of split second on trickbind is enough to warrant a 2/2 split between that and vision charm.

    In other news I took rug to my lgs yesterday and went to a miserable 0/2 drop. My match ups were miracles 0/2 game one got him down to 7 life before he stabilized game 2 got him down to 2 all while only drawing 1 out of my 8 bolts having another 7 in the other 30 or so cards in my deck. Round 2 was painter stone and to say the least I hate this match up. They always seem to have a turn 1 blood moon effect they can jam or they can slow roll it and have multiple red blasts in hand all the while playing around daze and spell pierce. Any advice for playing against painter stone?

  12. #72

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Whoa did anybody see the rug list that took second at SCG Charlotte? http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=6997&d=240222&f=LE

    It's really interesting I've been seeing more and more lists lately that are trimming 1 or 2 tarmogoyfs for Vendilion Cliques. I mean it makes sense it's a house against combo and flys over TNN, but is worse in some of the fair decks because you have less ways to deal with opposing tarmogoyfs. Another interesting choice is going down to 3 stifles which seems bad especially since it's more or less a counter against miracles.
    His sideboard also has some weird singletons. Sylvan Library, Arcane laboratory and Ooze pop out at me. I mean sylvan and ooze I get for grindy mathc ups and graveyard hate respectively, but arcane laboratory confuses me. It's great against storm and other combo decks since essentially your counters become uncounterable. The only thing I don't like about the laboratory is it's 3 mana which is a bit of a stretch and we have to tap out to do it.

  13. #73
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Arcane Laboratory is kind of a card that very few storm pilots would expect. In fact I guess they sb no removal at all, because Thresh is not really famous for playing cards like CotV, CB, 3sphere and such. Otoh, when I played ANT I always took at least one CoV or Decay, as there might be need to destroy Cage or (fast) Delver.
    Considering Sylvan Library, I already wrote my opinion on it, and it's basically this: it's a nice card for a different deck, one that plans to play lots of turns to use the card filtering (and the potential CA). May and should Maverick play this card? Definitely! Thresh? I'm not sure.
    I like the two Cliques, they may be essential in certain metagames/matches, because they fly over TNN, mess with Terminus/SFM triggers, help to fight combo, etc., all know facts and applications. I wouldn't cut two Goyfs, though. Maybe one, but definitely not two. Goyf is pretty fast, it's a great wall against opposing aggro decks (and Goyfs) and there might be other less useful cards to cut: I'd start with Thoguht Scour that in my opinion does very little.
    However, a 2nd place out of 361 players ain't anything to sneeze at. Good job, and if the guy is registered on the forum, I'd love to read the report.

  14. #74

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    Arcane Laboratory is kind of a card that very few storm pilots would expect. In fact I guess they sb no removal at all, because Thresh is not really famous for playing cards like CotV, CB, 3sphere and such. Otoh, when I played ANT I always took at least one CoV or Decay, as there might be need to destroy Cage or (fast) Delver.
    Considering Sylvan Library, I already wrote my opinion on it, and it's basically this: it's a nice card for a different deck, one that plans to play lots of turns to use the card filtering (and the potential CA). May and should Maverick play this card? Definitely! Thresh? I'm not sure.
    I like the two Cliques, they may be essential in certain metagames/matches, because they fly over TNN, mess with Terminus/SFM triggers, help to fight combo, etc., all know facts and applications. I wouldn't cut two Goyfs, though. Maybe one, but definitely not two. Goyf is pretty fast, it's a great wall against opposing aggro decks (and Goyfs) and there might be other less useful cards to cut: I'd start with Thoguht Scour that in my opinion does very little.
    However, a 2nd place out of 361 players ain't anything to sneeze at. Good job, and if the guy is registered on the forum, I'd love to read the report.
    yeah I've tried sylvan before with a 3 goyf build that Sasan suggested and it worked great. It allowed me to achieve better card quality in games that went long like stoneblade and was pure card advantage against combo decks. Quick question what are CotV, CB, and 3sphere? I'm guessing trinisphere not sure the other two. Yeah I've seen some cut one goyf for a vendilion clique which seems fine, but two is a first for the specific reasons you just said. Clique does have it's advantages in it's interactions with SFM and Miracles. Another cute interaction is assuming the opponent is playing conservatively around daze or force clique can snag a TNN.

  15. #75
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Contract Killer View Post
    yeah I've tried sylvan before with a 3 goyf build that Sasan suggested and it worked great. It allowed me to achieve better card quality in games that went long like stoneblade and was pure card advantage against combo decks. Quick question what are CotV, CB, and 3sphere? I'm guessing trinisphere not sure the other two. Yeah I've seen some cut one goyf for a vendilion clique which seems fine, but two is a first for the specific reasons you just said. Clique does have it's advantages in it's interactions with SFM and Miracles. Another cute interaction is assuming the opponent is playing conservatively around daze or force clique can snag a TNN.
    My main concern (and frankly: one and only, yet serious), so, my main concern with Library is that it's quite slow and that it does nothing the turn we play it. I'm not sure if a tempo deck can use this card, otoh, I know that in particular matchups (like Miracles/ non-ToA combo) we may easily draw tons of cards with it, not to mention all the card selection gained over the turns. Definitely a sb material, I wouldn't play it main, because there are some matchups where I wouldn't love to draw it.

    CB - Counterbalance
    CotV - Chalice of the Void

  16. #76

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    @ Contract

    3sphere = Trinisphere

    --


    Heffner's list from the invitational is interesting, and warrants some testing if that's anyone is interested in it, but if I'm not mistaken, he cracked the top8 due to his Standard run (8-0), not his Legacy record (5-3, I think).

    Unless I'm incorrect in how the invitational top8s are decided. Nonetheless, I'm pretty sure his record leading up to the top8 was strictly above average.

  17. #77

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    So last night with nothing better to do I got together with some friends and decided to test this abomination that is RUG + Nought lol. I played 4 games against shardless BUG with a shell of 3 noughts, 2 vision charm, 2 trickbind and 3 gitaxian probe and 2/2 so not horrible. There was at least one game where it resolved and it's like swing you go from 16 to 6 lol. At the very least it doesn't get chump blocked by everything under the sun like goyf does which is really relevant against shardless bug. The trample also makes baleful strix a little less annoying. Fighting through discard was a bit hard and on top of that they have Liliana... and abrupt decay . To say the least this is probably one of our worst match ups (I would say worse then jund) especially with this combo nought build.

    After those games I switched to 2 goyf 2 nought, 2 trickbind, 1 vision charm, 3 probe. This resulted in 2 wins 4 losses over the next 6 games. It's interesting how with the trickbinds it makes the deck play more of a controlish more mana denial oriented build. I think at the very least it's worth pursuing. I'm sure there's plenty of times that I could pull this off against combo and force them to just have it or die in a turn or two. That shear fact alone is relevant putting a clock on the table that can't be ignored what so ever. It just feels so bad at the card disadvantage with abrupt decay and swords to plowshares. Let's face it though what's miracles going to do about a 12/12? If we have a force, stifle etc to protect it miracles is a much worse position then if it was just a 3/4 goyf. In addition they can't lean nearly as much on RIP in that match up if we have nought.

    Other notes Vision charms land ability still has me puzzled if it's worth using. I tried it once and probably cost me a game I had perfect information and new crap was going to hit the fan that turn. He had 2 lands and deathrite out with shardless in hand I think so I decided to turn swamps into plains or something irrelevant nuking his two lands for the turn. Naturally he top decks another land plays it plays shardless and yeah. It's probably more relevant against mana tight decks like bug delver, patriot delver, d&T hahaha etc. At first I thought it would be awesome against something like miracles in response to a terminus turn plains into mountains, but because of when the trigger happens they float mana and don't care. If they flip top on your turn then do it they still float mana. I want it to be good, but outside of making mana tight decks blank for a turn it's not that great. Everything that we care about aka removal via abrupt decay, swords, terminus etc is instant speed at most we might be able to mess up planeswalkers and make them not play jace or Liliana. Even that though merits something seeing as it really screws up dread nought.

    After that it was getting late but we did a quick best 2/3 with my regular 8 bolt build and it was great. Game 1 I won, but in retrospect he realized he messed up in the last turns after swinging with a deathrite + jitte vs 2 goose that were beating his head in. The first swing was right, but after that he should have only used one counter for life and then left deathrite back on defense shooting me while fending off geese with the +2/+2 from jitte. Game 2 was close and I narrowly won after drawing price. He's at 8 taps both deathrites to shoot me knowing he can just do this over the next few turns while goyfs stare at each other then bam 8 to the face off of price for exact . SB I like this match a lot more because we side out 4 daze 4 force and 2 pierce (at least I did) and in 3 pyroblast, 2 submerge, 2 price, 1 sylvan, 1 grudge, 1 vendilion clique. There is some argument to keep pierce in (and some number of daze otp) after sb since it still hits Liliana. This was the build I was playing for those two games
    MD 8 bolt, 2 pierce, stock list
    SB 3 pyroblast, 2 submerge, 2 price, 2 cage, 1: sylvan, flusterstorm, vendilion clique, ancient grudge, artifact mutation, rough
    Instead of trying to avoid the x / 3 bracket and in turn manaless dredge like the plague I broke down and put more than one graveyard hate in the sb hahaha still want to cut it for something more relevant like a second rough.

  18. #78

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    As much as I like Trickbind, I truly think Canadian Dreadnought needs 3-4 Vision Charm, likely eschewing the Trickbind entirely. Trickbind may be a viable flex slot, but not in the Dreadnought build. The mana efficiency of Vision Charm is a part of the reason. The ability to save your Dreadnought by phasing him out is another. And the third, most important reason to use 3-4 Vision Charms is to occasionally take advantage of a faster Mongoose against Abrupt Decay decks.

    However, the major issue I have been concerned with, and what I imagine is the ultimate downfall of Canadian Dreadnought (if it does not end up doing better in tests and is abandoned) is the dance with inconsistency it exhibits in trying to assemble a two-card combo. For Canadian to perform ideally, there is a great stress placed on consistency. Tarmogoyf isn't a 12/12, but he's a creature alone. Further, I believe redundancy in spells is essential, as we usually want the same hands every game: stifle, brainstorm, daze, delver//mongoose, bolt, waste, fetch...

    This idea of consistency + redundancy is precisely why I came up with the 8 bolt version in the first place, and I'm glad that it has been performing well, and, believe me, I am happier than anyone that testing has proven there is sufficient blue to easily run all 4 Forces.

  19. #79

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I completely agree that vision charm is better in terms of efficiency/protection, but it seems to be dead the rest of the time from my 10 games of testing or so. I don't really think we ever want to mill 4 with vision charm because that's just straight card disadvantage without snapcaster mage. How does making mongoose bigger even help us against abrupt decay decks anyways? I mean if you look at jund, shardless bug, bug, and the stoneblade/deathblade mesh (I swear they're one in the same these days) all have at least 3 - 8 creatures that just eat mongoose threshed or not (not counting the other 3 edict effects probably). The main issue is more so the fact that he doesn't stick. Every time I played him he immediately got tagged with Abrupt Decay or Swords (like most of our threats to begin with). With that being said it might be worth trying more charms. Since it phases out and then in on our turn we will have mana up and can try to protect him better. In addition this plan negates Liliana as a possible out for them which is a huge plus in my opinion. Then again this is based on them not just using spot removal in response to charm phasing out nought to begin with something that if they can they will.

  20. #80
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    With Wasteland, Port (and I already saw Ghost Quarter!) all over the metagame, I'm starting to consider Teferi'S Response as my 15th sb slot. It's a narrow card and it definitely doesn't warrant more than one solt (if only), and maybe LftL would be far better. But I like the hypothetical blow out it may do, as in certain situations this is (conditional) two mana Ancestral Recall - you draw only two cards, but the third one is the one that the opponent has lost.
    While Stifle is good for saving our fragile manabase, I still think that against DnT-like decks even a set of Stifles might be not enough, esp. in the early game when we struggle to do anything against the imminent threat of being Wasted out of game. In the midgame it's a bit better (and in the late game it's worse again, as many more mana-denial tools get online, yet it's not the time when it matters anymore...), but my main concern are those opening turns when one Waste or Port may kick us out of game. Countering that activation and even gaining a CA out of it seems like a powerful option.
    Frankly, for this to work, all the Divert-related troubles pop up: you need to play enough copies to have them at ready, and then you're simply better with a singleton Loam and a bit of luck with your cantrips to find.

    Maybe I just want to see their faces when I'll respond (pun intended) to their Port activation, and in fact it looks like a bad idea. Otoh, it still continues to vex my mind. After all, there's not much we need to do in DnT matchup: we must protect our lands and then resolve the removal. But yeah, Needle and Loam might be the best.

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