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Thread: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

  1. #1041

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    What do you think of this recent list by Steve Mann http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=77678

    Creatures
    4 Delver
    4 Swiftspear
    3 Goyf
    3 Pyromancer

    Instants/Sorceries
    4 Force
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Treasure Cruise
    2 Daze
    2 Forked Bolt
    2 Pyroblast

    Lands
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 polluted Delta
    3 Misty
    1 island
    1 tropical island
    4 volcanic island

    Sideboard
    1 needle
    1 izzet Staticaster
    1 goyf
    2 vortex
    1 grudge
    1 electrickery
    1 envelop
    2 hydroblast
    2 pyroblast
    2 spell pierce
    1 forked bolt

    Personally I think it looks really weak. I mean all he's using green for is goyf which is definitely worth it, but seems not worthwhile for just goyf. In addition with the light green spell count having only one green mana source to cast it off of seems bad. I could see 3 volc 2 trop split with a list that ditched goose for swiftspear (again something that seems bad to me), but only 1 green source really?
    It just looks like UR cruise Delver with goyf smashed in it. Why run goyf if you're playing UR delver and can afford to go with a more basic mana base and have Price of Progress which will probably do at least 1 goyf hit which is all you really need when running a fast UR list.
    In all it just seems like a UR delver cruise list stretched for added goyf support. I could see add goose because the bin will get filled fast and a 3/3 for 1 with shroud is a thing I hear, but there's the non-bo with cruise to worry about. Anyways food for thought I might try to look up his matches and watch it in a day or so.

  2. #1042
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by sawatarix View Post
    I just saw Lam Phans Landstilldeck in the top8 of GP NY which is a tempodeck (!) and i was wondering if there is a way to build a *better* tempo-landstill deck
    For whats worth, Lam is a regular at my local. Lam's deck is not a tempo deck. He'll tell you that himself. All his threats are lands, which is inherently not tempo BC you can only play one land a turn. The power of the deck is the ability to run pyroclams which is so good right now against so many match ups.

  3. #1043
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    What is usually the plan of attack against ANT? I'm going to be playtesting myself to get a better idea, but I figured I would ask so that I generally know what to expect.

    My current list is the traditional stock list with the flex spots being 2x Gitaxian Probe, 2x Forked Bolt, and 2x Spell Pierce.

    Here is my current SB (this will prob change based off my meta, but I liked it so far):
    It is Nick Johnson's board:
    2 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Null Rod
    2 Grim Lavamancer
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Blue Elemental Blast
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Hydroblast
    1 Krosan Grip
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Surgical Extraction
    2 Rough

    EDIT: is Null Rod simply for Top? Playing in my lgs it didn't really help much against equipment (at least not batterskull).
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  4. #1044
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Null rod is for:

    -jitte
    -led
    -Lotus petal
    -Æther vial
    -top
    -sword of X and Y
    -chrome mox
    -mox Diamond

    Its just so good vs storm

  5. #1045
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Que View Post
    What is usually the plan of attack against ANT? I'm going to be playtesting myself to get a better idea, but I figured I would ask so that I generally know what to expect.

    My current list is the traditional stock list with the flex spots being 2x Gitaxian Probe, 2x Forked Bolt, and 2x Spell Pierce.
    The plan is to play 2 Snare instead of GPs.

    I sb out two FBs and one LB, then I cut some number of crappy creatures (Goyf vs. NM depending on draw/play) to make room for:
    - 2 Grafidgger's Cage that stop PiF
    - 3 Pyroblassts to hinder their cantripping
    - 2 FLusterstorms for obvious reasons
    - at least one Rough to lackluster (or cantrip) into it if goblins show up.

    You basically play the heavy control role in first turns and once you're on three colored mana, you land your threat, otp you may play it a turn faster, esp. if you have some number of Dazes. Cantrip into any sort of permission, Waste lands at first sight (no need to try cut them of color, it doesnt work agaisnt deck with nine fetches and four LPs), Stifle fetchlands (as they'd CT/Duress you before storm triggers), keep Bolts for Xantid Swarm.
    Sometimes they need to destroy Cage if they cannot play the IT chain or EtW, but be prepared for anything ugly like Decay-your-Goyf or natural-ToA-from-hand.
    Play cautiously but don't give them too much time. As I already wrote I prefer to lay my threat after I got my game under control (Volc open for REB/BS, Trop/fetch open for Snare/Pierce), but you need to evaluate your hand and play accordingly. If you lack reasonable hand, you may play threat asap so that you got untaped lands later when you draw some counterspells.
    Look, I know it's disheartening to lose on turn1 with what would otherwise be a "hand with potential", but not every game goes like this...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    G3 was pretty intense, and I sat on one land and handful of countermagic, then I drawn a Foothills (commented by Pavel - datanaga on Source - as "this is gamebreaking draw"). I played Delver...
    ...so it isn't completely silly to tap out on turn1 to lay Delver/Mongoose and then hope for more gas later.
    But I mostly prefer to have one land open for Pierce/Stifle/w-e (or at least bluff the card) so that the opponent doesn't have that easy time playing solely around Daze and FoW.
    Speaking of pre-board games, these are pretty often a disastrous affair, as we pack far too many dead cards (too many threats, all FBs) and our permission is light (contrary to say CB or CotV) and our zero CA tools make it often impossible to acquire enough cards before the stream of Duresses forces through a winning card. Also, the lack of lifegain kinda suck, because natural Tendrils are far easier when the storm dude is playing against an opponent that effectively starts on 18-16 life.

    I know that I'm a bit too much stuck on the "threat/tempo/permission" theme, but this one is really tricky.
    You need to play some creatures because if you don't apply pressure, the opponent has all the time to sculpt a winning hand, esp. preboard when he can choose w/e route he wishes to due to our inability to fight the gy and liability to IT chains or natural Tendrils.
    But you also need to out-maneuver the oppoent via the usual tempo tools (andby this I mean StifleWaste), because you cannot trust your deck to win against an opponent with several lands and lots of discard. You really need to Stifle the fetches (I keep the card for strom trigger only in a desperate or in already won situations), as het will get rid of it before going off, and your soft counters work only against a mana-deprived opponents, which definitely isn't a dude firmly sitting on two basic Islands and a set of Petals.
    Yet you need an open mana for when they start to threaten you, and frankly, this might happen as soon as turn1, altough more realistically: turn2.
    Finding the balance between:
    - laying threats and applying pressure
    - keeping their options limited via mana denial
    - and having mana open for permission
    is quite a task. From what ideas and experiences I gathered from both sides of the fences, I'm like 100% sure that preboard this mu is in ANTs favor, while postboard it's about our particular build, ANTs tricks and sb surprises and of course, about the plan they choose or are forced into. While RUG plays still the same, storm might decide to go the gy route, win with EtW, surprise with Swarm, build the IT chain or natural Tendrils, Extirpate FoWs, chumpblock with SCM...
    Also, I don't follow the ANT thread anymore, but I know that at least Slosh plays two Bolts main which are extraordinary effective against threat-light RUG deck, because both Goyf and NM are slow (one is small, the other is expensive), so killing the Delver may buy them lots of time, esp. if we've BS-ed away all the other dudes to sculpt a solid hand.

    From all the less expected cards that we may sb (Cage, REBs and Flusterstorms are kinda obvious, right?), I'd say that those are solid:
    Tormod's Crypt. Hinders threshold and/or flashbacks. Has some limited applications in LftL.dec matchup and is pretty solid against gy based decks. Playable?
    Additional counterspells. Pierce no.3-4 or Envelop are quite solid in Miracles matchup, so I may see them in sb
    Null Rod is an extremely effective card, but it comes at a price which is cmc2. But it stops all of their artifact mana, and that's pretty good especially considering the power of LED.
    Surgical Extraction to mess with their gy and to gain information on their sb plan.
    Vendilion Clique is a really fine card, but that's not a surprise...

    Also, Cabal Therapy is a real skilltester, and if you play against a dude who knows how to play it, your chances go down accordingly. You may somehow balance this buy playing lots of unexpected cards (Envelop, Extraction or anything like that), but there's a border you cannot cross and playing say Disrupt is a bit too silly.
    Unless my lgs would be 50% storm, I'd stay away from Spellstutter Sprite or Riptide Pilferer, although these are exactly the dudes I'm always itching to try out, as the one dodges Duress and the other messes with their hand.
    Also... play Scavenging Ooze.

  6. #1046

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Que View Post
    What is usually the plan of attack against ANT? I'm going to be playtesting myself to get a better idea, but I figured I would ask so that I generally know what to expect.

    My current list is the traditional stock list with the flex spots being 2x Gitaxian Probe, 2x Forked Bolt, and 2x Spell Pierce.

    Here is my current SB (this will prob change based off my meta, but I liked it so far):
    It is Nick Johnson's board:
    2 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Null Rod
    2 Grim Lavamancer
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Blue Elemental Blast
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Hydroblast
    1 Krosan Grip
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Surgical Extraction
    2 Rough

    EDIT: is Null Rod simply for Top? Playing in my lgs it didn't really help much against equipment (at least not batterskull).
    Pretty much what Bed Decks Player said is on the money in terms of how to play the match up. As for that specific sideboard I would do something like the following:
    +2 cage (shuts off past in flames)
    Null Rod (hits LED, but similar to cage this isn't full proof. They can still go rit, rit, rit past in flames, rit, rit, rit win without having petals/LED)
    +2 pyroblast
    +1 extraction (hold until past in flames then hit IT and they probably won't be able to go off)
    - 2 forked bolt
    - 1 bolt
    -3 goyf (personally I prefer cutting goyf always as the two mana just seems worse even when on the play than being able to drop a t1 threat)
    I also think adding a single rough out of the board is a bit much against ANT. They tend to be more resilient and just wait to kill you with Tendrils. Now against TES I would hands down board in the 2 roughs since their main game plan against tempo is T1 or T2 dump lethal goblins.

  7. #1047
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Pretty much what Contract Killer said is on the money in terms of how to sideboard Roughs. In fact the more I think about it, the more I'm sure that while 2 Roughs are a must against TES, you don't really need them against ANT, as they'd go for the slower ToA kill most of the times, especially if you know that the player likes to use the double ToA or natural Tendrils plan.
    I dislike the snail pace of NM and that it chews the hit points really slowly, otoh, there were many times where I simply couldn't play the Goyf, although it'll be an immediate 5/6. Definitely sb out the Goyfs, not Mongooses...

  8. #1048
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Thank you guys for all your advice. Very insightful. I will try to apply the strategy :)
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  9. #1049

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Hello everybody,
    i recently discussed watching a SCG video with some friends about starting a game with RUG delver.

    When you are on the play and don't know what your opponent is playing it's sometimes difficult to choose the best way to start. For example, that seems a good hand:
    delver of secrets
    Spell Pierce
    Brainstorm
    Fetch
    Wasteland
    Ponder
    Lightning Bolt

    Knowing what tour opponent is playing is easy:
    • fetch-delver against control or not winning turn 1 combos
    • fetch-go against the rest to be able to :
      • play pierce
      • protect your only blue land against a possible wasteland
      • kill a mana curve creature like deathrite shaman at end of opponent's turn
      • playing brainstorm at end of opponent's turn if nothing before happened for better choose what to do in your next turn






    If you don't know what your opponent is playing, what would be your start?
    thanks and happy new year!

  10. #1050

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Being on the play, and against an unknown opponent, I would fetch volcanic, delver, go.

    Early pressure is key against almost any deck. If my opp wastes my volcanic, it's ok, my delver is still alive. If my opp kills my delver, it's ok, I'll cantrip for another threat and will protect it with pierce.
    Currently playing: T.E.S. & RUG Delver

    @vermiis

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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    What Niggurath wrote.

    I find the Rough/Tumble pretty appealing in main. It's not that good to warrant say two slots, namely considering cmc2, but the fact that it takes out YP and his team, or kills any amout of Deathrites, or Mor plus dude, or several Elves is pretty solid. Any opinions?

  12. #1052
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    The right Play is

    fetch -> volc-> Ponder

    And searching for a Daze fow and 2nd manaland. As we Only Play 14 Real lands The risk of being wasted turn 1 and dont find a 2nd Land is in too high imo. delver t1 is too high Risk vs unknown Decks because of being able to get easy knocked out the Game.

    Greets

  13. #1053
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I want to see somebody wasting me after I deploy Delver of Secrets turn 1.

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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Einherjer View Post
    I want to see somebody wasting me after I deploy Delver of Secrets turn 1.

    Greetings
    Happens every time. With the very few lands we play, it's often a game over, although it takes a few more turns.
    I'm not sure. On the one hand, this is how I very often start. On the other hand, I just now finished a game where I lost simply becasue of the "turn1 Delver" doctrine. Seems like Ponder for a second land is safe. It also depends on your metagame. Even if you're playing against an unkonwn dude, it's still not in a vacuum, it happens in some timespace. Post Khans? Everyone plays TC so I guess I'm against URx something. Silly lgs like our own? I dig for Force as there are several ppl with ANT.

  15. #1055

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Imo otp it can't be right to cast Ponder if we have Delver in hand.

    The only time i would do that is, if i know i play against a rly bad player and he plays Wasteland. Cause if he Timewalks himself while we have a Delver in play that's just fine for me....
    Though we do play not much lands, the blind T1 Wasteland is such a bad play i don't think any worthy opp would do that.

    Reguards

    E: +1 Einherjer

  16. #1056
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    If you are on the play against a completely unknown opponent, definitely play Delver first. But if you have knowledge your opponent is running Wasteland and 1cc removal, hedge your bet and play Ponder first. Smart opponents know we often have to keep land-light hands, it is often your opponent's best bet to try and Waste you out of the game. If your only cantrip is Brainstorm with no Ponder, just jam Delver, Brainstorm is a lot worse than Ponder at finding your second colored source.

  17. #1057

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Excactly,don't forget that we actually want to win games with this deck ;)

  18. #1058

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    thanks for your replies. fetch delver is my same play, but other colleagues would play differently like some of you.

    happy new year!

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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by apon View Post
    thanks for your replies. fetch delver is my same play, but other colleagues would play differently like some of you.

    happy new year!

    pondering without a plan is in general bad practice. knowing what they are playing will help resolve the ponder more effectively. i would play delver with this hand unless i knew for certain my opponent was on a turn one combo deck

  20. #1060

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    if u think delver on turn 1 is wrong, stop playin tempo
    if ur opponent wastes you after turn 1 delver, thx for timewalk for free :)

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