I certainly haven't. Been playing RUG a lot with moderate-to-great success. I love mongoose and especially rough/tumble in the side. Obviously playing Young Pyro will not allow me to run rough/tumble and I'm also not to fond of playing with probes. I'd rather pack pierces and more reactive elements in my deck.
Last edited by Sunday Funday; 07-02-2015 at 12:26 PM.
I've been thinking the same thing and it might be worthwhile testing it as a 1 or 2 of at most. It can grow goose which is plus. The only thing that has me hesitating is the impact the card could have against fair decks running wasteland ie other delver decks, maverick, d&T etc. Against mid range stoneblade, miracles, shardless bug and miracles it seems fine since the games go long.
I wouldn't change the initial 54 stock at all. Everything after that spell pierce, snare, forked bolt etc is sub par from the stock list. That's not to say they're bad, but they're a far cry from daze, force, wasteland stifle etc. I think something along the lines of this might be worth testing:
54 stock 2 pierce 2 forked bolt 1 snare 1 magmatic insight
The card does a lot of things rug wants and some that it just hasn't been able to do (card advantage). Since we cap out at 2 mana we really only need 1 - 2 lands out of the 14 we have (18 if wasteland is a dud in a match up). If we only run 1 or 2 I think lands wouldn't be too much of a problem. Despite the advantages and disadvantages I'm not sure if there really is room I think 2 pierces are a must and 2 secondary removal are as well. I really like snare, but we only ever want 1 or 2 which is why it's the first to go imo. I'm not keeping my hopes up, but I think it's worth testing at the very least.
Top RUG decks in Lille used 4 of the flex spots for extra removal, 2 Forked Bolt and 2 Dismember, rather than just 2 of the slots.
By the way, at this point are 2 Spell Pierce even considered optional anymore?
I dunno if 2 pierce are absolutely necessary. It's just the most versatile and arguably powerful counter we have after force and daze. Which is why most people play at least 2 of them. Snare is the next best counter which is close to pierce in terms of power level they just do different things. Pierce helps close out counter wars where as snare starts them (cb, snap, IT, goyf, stoneforge, YP, etc). I think if your meta is full of fair decks than snare is better since you hit a lot of the important cards rather than needing a force/daze to start a counter war with pierce as back up. It's just a preference I think. The only deck that I would say you really want pierce against is SnT every other deck snare hits most of their powerful stuff and they can't play around it as easily.
As for 4 flex spots devoted to removal that seems excessive. I'm an advocate of the 2 pierce, 2 snare, 2 forked split since it seems the most balanced. I haven't had a lot of practice against the gurmag angler heavy grixis builds lately so running dismember might be a necessity if that becomes more popular. Dismember is just so bad against any non fair deck ie miracles, combo or even like d&t. In those match ups it's either a dud or the 4 life might just be too high of a cost.
i had success last weekend and 3-0'ed a mini going back to rug.. i think the most versatile list would have a 3pierce 7 removal built.. pierces helps our vs the rise of omnitell...and usual combos like reanimators..storms..etc.. while carrying a versatile removal buil of dismember, forked, fice alongside 4bolts helps us against opposing goyfs, anglers, yp's... i up'ed my submerges back to 3 and are key vs my final matchup vs bugdelver.
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Considering 2 MD red blast. Seems like a staple in most decks carrying volcanics. Thoughts?
Our bUrg cousins sometimes play 1 in the MD. I don't see much of an advantage to running them over any of the other flex options we have though as our OmniTell matchup is already pretty decent. I guess it can hit Counterbalance but I think it would be hard to resolve if there's a Counterbalance in play already. It can kill opposing Delvers, Cliques, but so does Lightning Bolt, Forked Bolt and Dismember. I like Pyroblast a lot but I don't think I want it more than Spell Pierce or more versatile removal.
From what I've gathered our biggest difficulty right now is generating true card advantage that can keep up with Dig Through Time.
I wouldn't cut the two best cards of the deck ;) Mongoose and Stifle are basically reason to play this deck, and they enable wins that couldn't otherwise be possible.
I think the best way to counter Dig Through Time decks is to literally counter the spell if you can or just try to keep the opposing side of the table clean and swing with the trusty Goose :)
I also think that if someone would want to play Dig themselves, then maybe it would be better to just replace the Geese with Deathrites and play 4-color. But I'm still an advocate for Nimble Mongoose ^^
I hear you, bruh. Nonetheless...
http://tinyurl.com/qyb6ue9
...I'm referencing when Daryl Ayers and Ralph Betesh top 8'd w/ nearly identical RUG lists a week before TC was banned. RUG had been dismissed from the top tier because it couldn't contend with Treasure Cruise card advantage...until it implemented its own.
Fwiw, I'm messing w/ a list that simply moves 3 Spell Pierce to SB for 3 DTT main, thus retaining 4 Stifle.
I'm playing 4 red blast effects on my sb now. Works fine for me.
Cheers
Actually I am currently testing this list on MODO and it feels pretty strong:
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Tarmogoyf
2x Young Pyromancer (wanna try -1 YP and +1 Goyf)
2x TNN
4x Daze
3x Spell Pierce
4x Force of Will
1x Pyroblast
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Dismember
1x Forked Bolt
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
3x Dig Through the Time
1x Sylvan Library
4x Wasteland
1x Island (maybe swap for another Volcanic)
3x Volcanic Island
3x Tropical Island
4x Flooded Strand
4x Místy Rainforest
SB:
2x Submerge
2x Flusterstorm
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Forked Bolt
1x Sulfur Elemental
1x Sulfuric Vortex
1x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Grafdigger Cage
1x Pithing Needle
1x Null Rod
1x Krosan Grip
I still have these Delver blowouts + I can play longer grindier games thanks to powerful lategame bombs. I am still unsure if i wanna stifle in this build. I will probably try swap something for 3-4 Stifles and see how it goes.
Its still just testing list so I am open for ideas.
How sick would it be to Predict a Terminus in response to a Top draw? I might actually play 1 of that card right now.
Just got done at the monthly IWMC tournament nearby Denver. Played the following:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Dig Through Time
3 Forked Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Delta//Strand
3 Volcanic//Tropical
4 Wasteland
Matches were TES 2-0, Elves 2-0, OmniTell 2-0, Grixis Delver 1-2 (0-2, maybe?..), and 12 post MUD 2-1. Split T8.
The Kird Ape was nice to play in situations in which I only had Volcanic Island in play, but it would have needed Tropical Island to have been any good, and the lack of shroud was more relevant than the non-graveyard dependent buff and led to a difficult Grixis Matchup. Probably nobody but I am surprised by this :) .
The Dig Through Times often sat in my hand, but were awesome when I got to play them. 3 isn't necessary, but 1 or 2 could be quite good. Perhaps in a list with 2-3 Gitaxian Probe.
Moving forward, I likely will revert to either my previous list (54 core, 3/3 Spell Pierce/Forked Bolt), a 2/2/2 Spell Pierce, Forked Bolt, DTT, or the 4/2 Spell Pierce, Dismember route.
Additionally, I will up my SB Pyroblast count from 3 to 4 to combat Omni, CB, and DTT, and will probably add a Dismember or two if they're not represented in the MB.
Just went 2-0-1 in my weekly splitting for 1st with a storm player.
Round 1 beat reanimator 2-1. Once I got rid of bolts it was easier.
Round 2 beat mono R sneak attack 2-0
Round 3 split with storm, but we played it out for fun and I went 0-2. He just shredded my hand.
It's not bad so much as conditional - if they're tapped out (aside from W to cast Terminus) it works, and if you're making them spin the Top it likely turns Spell Pierce on and might even turn on Daze too. I don't think it's good enough, but I also don't think people value just making Miracles players spin the Top and waste their mana highly enough.
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