I would never play TNN in rug it's unnecessary to play it as a oppose to a goyf. TNN is only good imo anything with SFM other than that its not that great. Clique on the other hand I like a lot more and have played one in my board for the past 9 months I'd say. But I think the direction we want to discuss with the deck is that do we play Young Pyromancer over Tarmogoyf or continue with the same list. Young Pyromancer basically changes the deck, we drop stifle and goyf for 4 YP and 4 Git probes. I never liked Git probe with the list and I went back to play forked bolt but in the meta today YP seems really strong against most decks and we will continue getting value from YP after its been taken off the board. Playing git probe will give us knowledge on the deck and how we want to set up turn one, also what to prepare for and counter. As oppose to stifling a fetch or wasteland. If I do switch to YP I know my sideboard will be entirely different than what it is now. But if you guys think TNN is the direction you want to take the deck you're completely wrong, TNN is only good with equipment's. Also you should be playing a mixture of 3 REB/Pyroblasts in your board to begin with for SNT decks.
On TNN:
True-Name satisfies certain roles of each creature RUG traditionally runs. Like Delver, it is an evasive creature we can pitch to Force; like Mongoose, it is an untargetable threat; and like Tarmogoyf, it can sit back and block anything on the ground.
The difference, of course, is in its CMC. However, if it replaces Tarmogoyf as a 2-of as Sawatarix suggests, the mana cost is more excusable, particularly if we increase our cantrip count as Sawatarix also suggests.
While Sawatarix suggests preordain, I agree with Vain and would opt for cantrips 9-11 (and even 12) to be in the form of Gitaxian Probe to help alleviate overall CMC (since 4x 2cc spells (tarm) are being replaced with 2x 3cc spells (tnn) and 2x 0cc spells (g. probe)) while increasing land drops and speeding up Mongoose, which is something we should be doing even before the event that we drop to 10 creatures.
TNN is terrible in the deck because it will make you tap out to cast it, Idk how the rest of you RUG players feel about tapping out but I never do. It shouldn't even be brought up in the thread to play the card, you all just need to tuck your boners in for it. The card is terrible against BUG, SNT, Storm, any SFM deck (they have equip), Elves, Jund. Basically the whole meta, Name one deck that it benefits us against. Absolutely NONE! So just end it with that terrible card. You're wasting my time reading your post of an irrelevant card for the deck. And being that we only run 12 creatures in the deck and everyone has their guns cocked and loaded for TNN in there sideboards just isn't going to benefit us now is it?
For those that have Clique in your sideboard. When do you typically bring it in?
I am starting to think that it should just be a mainboard card to free up some space in the sideboard (-1 Goyf +1 Clique) after reading everyones opinions on the matter.
Because I bring her in against Miracles, all combo, and SFM.dec. This ends up being a LOT of the meta.
What's are people's thoughts?
-Thanks
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
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Wow, ShiftyKapree, we must have really upset you!
What I like about RUG is its elegance and it's straightforward and brutal approach, though sometimes it goes in vain.
I think that TNN and/or YP builds should take a direction of bUrg or Bant, because they definitely need (or at least have use for) DRS or Hierarch. Without the druid, TNN is clunky and slow. Also, meta is slowly adapting to TNN (and Elves plus DnT are everywhere), so I would stay away from YP, unless I would feel like I need a change. Every Golgari Charm or Rough or Clasm or whatnot would really hurt.
6 Pyroblasts are answer to TNN should it bother you. 8 burn are also answer to TNN; by the time they resolve it (note that they need to play around your counters no matter if you really have them), those additional four Lightnings should do the job. Yes, Thresh may lose to DRS->SFM->BSK->TNN nuts hands, but then again every deck loses to it and this is not a usual opening seven. Removal helps in this cases as it hinders their mana development and makes it harder to play around our Dazes (when aimed at DRS/Hierarch/BoP), or it slows (literally stops) Batterskull for long enough to make the card not matter (when we kill the SFM). Yes, 8TNNs Merfolks are annoying matchup and nigh impossible to beat, but it's definitely a different deck than everydays [name]Blade, UWR, bUrg or similar decks packing TNN; decks that tend to crumble if you remove their main component, be it DRS or Mystic.
My only concern right now that prevents me from switching to eight bolts version is that I dislike to play without Snare (Goyf, CB, IT, BW, RiP, Hymn, etc.) esp. in quite a combo heavy metagame. The other thing that pesters me is the increased fragility of Abberations, so I think I'll try 4 LB / 4 FB split.
I agree TNN isn't where we want to be. The meta is shifting more and more towards mid-range. This is where TNN thrives. Rather then joining the party I say we stay in the early game and keep our opponents in the early game (Stifle, Daze, Wasteland) I believe the point of the 8 bolt plan was to end the game as fast as possible and is in direct response to the slow down that is happening. Ending the game as fast as possible while still keeping the flexibility to have game against combo is what RUG Delver was designed to do, no? TNN goes against that plan. Clique is better in this plan. She keeps the flexibility and allows us to do it on our opponents turn. Not only do we tap out for TNN usually, but we don't have the best tools to fight back against the hate that people board in other then Force (a card we often board out).
Ask Obama for a Magic: The Gathering subsidy while being dressed in pajamas.
@ cartothemax: You're right about the "counterclockwise" move we have to do: if meta shifts to more midrange, we should move in the exact opposite direction and try to be even more fast so that the midrange decks lose before they may overwhelm us. The one factor, though, that makes this a bit more harder goal, is a presence of any combo that is (of course) even more fast than Thresh. I guess that 8 bolts build needs veeery strong sb to compete against TES/ANT/SnT/gravedecks, as without those additional Snares and Pierces, g1 is easy to lose.
Otoh, fast combo forces the fair decks (and esp. control) to have tools that may be suboptimal against Thresh, e.g. Counterspell (as seen as a one or two of in some Miracles lists), but other than that, many of the cards that are good against combo (like discard, taxing effects, REBs, RiP, etc.), are also powerful against RUG.
I'm already playing that configuration and added 1EE to the SB to combat TNN. Clique is MD material as of the moment due to the rise of combo and D & T. It's also good vs TNN decks as it has evasion and can remove equipment or TNN from an opponent's hand.
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TNN doesn't make you tap out for it. In fact, no card that I know of "makes" you tap out to cast it, and I don't think anybody is advocating for regularly tapping out to play spells. Anyway, players running TNN modify their approach to land drops and typically do not hold as many back in their hands.
In regards to the matchups you've suggested, Tarmogoyf isn't much better and may frequently be worse. For instance, I'd rather have a TNN against Elves than a Tarm who will be endlessly blocked via Symbiote+Elf, Quirion Ranger+Dryad Arbor, or any chump blocker. I'd rather have a TNN than a Tarm in the event that my opponent has a Tarm, and I'd rather have a TNN than a Tarm if my opponent has any targeted removal. In the combo matchup, Tarm will probably be better than a TNN, sure, but we're typically ahead in those matchups already, aren't we?
Also, your aggressive and derogatory attitude is in now way conducive to proving your point..
Do you really think, if I went to a large tournament, I'd play Dreadnoughts? Or TNN? Or any of the other things that myself and others are suggesting right now? No, not right out the gate. I'd play a stock, 12 creature list w/ Tarms all day.
But this is a place for new ideas to be exchanged, and for old ones to be challenged. And every time you try to stamp out an idea that does not conform to yours, you are creating an environment of hostility and immaturity that we should all be trying to move away from.
Be cool.
i can always tap out casting TNN, provided i was able to to exhaust all their resources..i mean mana resources and me with backup counters..
if it's a goyf, delver.. it can easily fold to 1 mana removals, by them hitting 2 manas we're vulnerable to RIP already...we can and we have answers for these.
im just adding variations, the deck we have is versatile on its own...we should never stop to EVOLVE..
(4-3-3-1-1) is a good split, the final being the cliq as it lessens our 3drop castable only on our turn...cliq can steal opposing tnns too once were ahead..thus giving us another space in the sideboards..goyf is just muscle, i just hate it when i have multiples just to lose to RIP, or when im bout to put in a huge clock and just losing this to STP..
i battled a mirrors, tombstalker, batterskull, griselbrands, chunks of tokens...and once i landed a TNN, im more comfortable as long as im ahead in life..
RUG doesnt need multiple of these, 3 mana up is not our game...
but this is just part of the evolving process i see.
and discussing new techs here, really helps us to progress with the DECK we all love..
healthy and informative discussions are key to moving forward...with RUG!
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I'm sure this has been beat to death.. and is probably outdated at this point with so many shamans on there.. but how does a -2 goyf +2 snap work in its place (for me goyf is usually the worse of the 3 creatures)... just curious before i playtest it next week.
or -2 goyf and 1 snap / 1 clique main.
The idea of running TNN has been beat to death in the old thread, many people have already tested it and few to little have succeeded in tournaments with the card in RUG. Also elves has been on the decline lately, and if you actually allow them to land a Symbiote or Quirion Ranger you deserve to lose. I mean if you plan to test a deck out, why wouldn't you go to a large scale tournament with it, how else would you find out if its going to be successful? And don't say sitting at your kitchen table or computer playtesting is going to prove that because everyone has a different playstyle. 3 drops just aren't good in RUG they go completely against the design of the deck which is tempo, and for tapping out there will be situations where you will with that 3 drop. Vclique is good because you cast it at the end of turn if they haven't played anything that needs to be dealt with, but that I play in the sideboard than maindeck. And stamping out an idea that has no proven large scale success isn't creating a hostile environment or being immature. It's being "realistic". Also with the majority of decks packing hate for TNN in the sideboard. The idea of the deck is putting them on a clock, timewalk them with stifle and counterspells, assemble a low costing threat and apply pressure which TNN isn't going to achieve that of what tarmogoyf can due. Now Abrupt Decay puts a damper on us a little bit but not to the extent where we need to flip the deck upside down and change it completely.
Now while everyone continues to argue about TNN being good/bad/horrible/meh I'm more interested in this new spite of mogis card. When you think about it doesn't it do essentially what we want submerge to do? Sure it's not free, but we could easily get to 5 instants/sorceries to kill a goyf. Kotr is a bit harder, but still doable especially if they drop it early. Tombstalker is just another goyf and again 5 instant/sorcery isn't hard to get to. The only downside would probably be against elves where submerge is superior because of speed. There's also the constant issue with submerge that it's just a "band aid". I'm not sure how often this actually happens, but I feel that decks such as bug and jund have enough cantrips or can grind out the game forever and eventually just find the threat again. Spite is a permanent answer which seems really nice. Sure it doesn't do crap against RIP but since when have goyf/tombstalker/kotr decks run RIP lol? The more and more I think about this card it looks like a dismember without the life loss and scry stapled on hahaha.
So a few people on the internet tell you they aren't having success with TNN and from that you conclude that it's a bad card in RUG tempo? Besides, most people in the old thread were cutting mongoose for TNN, which is just plain bad since mongoose is generally the best creature in the deck.
Big tournaments aren't always just around the corner. Also, you can still draw conclusions about a card being good or not by playing small tournaments with it. It's not as if people suddenly play completely different in a big tournament than in a small tournament.
If your oppenent has a removal spell, you end up with a dead goyf. A dead goyf can't apply pressure.
@Contract Killer
I don't think spite of mogis is good enough. If you want removal against goyf/stalker/kotr/batterskull germ, you're probably better off just playing dismember. Spite of mogis also usually can't deal with a first turn DRS/mother of runes/delver, which is a problem.
It's different. First of all, we need mana to play it, and red one to be exact. Submerge is playable of Tropical Island, similarly to Dismember which is castable with Wasteland. Moreover, Spite of Mogis is
...and that may be trouble in some matchups.
First of all, this isn't completely easy. Although KotR.dec won't play RiP (and neither will any deck with Goyf or Stalker, except maybe for some kind of silly WB brew), it's still something we need to count. Esp. big Knight or turn1 DRS might be hard to remove with this card, as for the DRS you need to at least Ponder and BS, while for the KotR we're thinking about any range possible from 4/4 (realistically the lowest p/t and mana conditions when casting KotR against deck with Daze and Bolt) to mid-game topdeck of 12/12. I especially dislike how this removal might be dead against DnT (where Submerge is also dead, of course), but yeah, we got lots of burn and Roughs for that mu.
My main concern about removal is still the same - it needs to hit both turn1 DRS and turn3 Goyf. Submerge does this. Spite of Mogis is conditional. Otoh, we may play it even if their only green is Grove of the Burnwillows.
Yes, I like that it's a permanent solution. Too many games I've lost when I was forced to wait with Submerge until they fetch and they... never fetched. Also, scry might be relevant.
I'm not sure. Testing will tell. I really dislike how it may be very hard to remove that turn1 elf or some big dude. But well, we have enough removal for the mana dork, and Goyfs won't show up before we'll fill our grave. Otoh, I had ppl sb Nihil Spellbomb or Surgical Extraction against me, and it kinda sucks if they remove your three Ponders at cost of two life, thus changing your Lava Axe into Lava Dart.
You are all right,Tnn hasn't seen yet in any top rug list in major events (so far.!)
But a few of them had 2 copies of tnn in the sideboard to crush fair grindy games,namely jund,bug and death&taxes.
Sometimes goyf got boardet out against white decks to make rest in piece less effective against us.
That's what happened so far.
What my crew and i brewed is a rug which has already boardet out tarmogoyfs (as we all dislike goyf in general since the meta shifted) for tnn.
The deck now doesn't always kill on turn 6 which was common in the 4-goyf lists,the kill is delayed around 2-4 turns.
But the threads stick and don't get plowed,burned or R.I.Ped away.
Sometimes we have to tap out 1 turn for a tnn to win the game after we stifled and snared our opponents plans.
(By the way,my first idea was to run a list with 4 delver 4 nimble mongoose 1 scavenging ooze and 2 green suns zenith)
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
I play one Krosan Grip in my sideboard for R.I.P and maindeck 2 spellsnares, I usually bring in against anything with RIP a Vclique, K grip, 1 Spell Pierce depending on the deck to take out it varies
Wrong.
Look at this list:
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Wasteland
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
SB:
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Submerge
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique
1587 players, this guy finish 11th. Really a great result. Top 8 was not so far...
Source:http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12902&iddeck=94665
A man also win a small tournament (34 players) with exactly the same list in Toulouse (France).
I think it's an interisting path to explore.
Call me ignorant but the creature package looks pretty...random for my taste.
But the player must be a good player and would have made 11th at the GP with a more basic rug list i guess.
(2 ooze,taiga and 3 daze? C'mon thats jund with force of will :D )
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
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