[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

[mextremartini]

I didnt say that the orb is Bad by any meaning but an unanswered vortex will definitly win and the orb needs additional cards to work out.
I think both cards are good but tackle the Matchup in a very diffetent was. Orb hinders their development or shuts it down completly while vortex presents a Hard-to-interact clock which is also a much better topdeck.

All of our cards interact really well with Orb. It feels like blood moon in a Blue Moon deck, of course the effect is symmetrical we are just better at handling it.
Perhaps we should stop seeing it as a SB card and play it in the main 60. Currently these are my flex slots 2 Spell Pierce/2 Dismember/2 Winter Orb.
Along side my SB that incorporated the new tech:

2 Graff Cage
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Invasive Surgery (awesome against Miracle, Lands and Combo... Even better then Flusterstorm IMO)
2 Submerge
2 Rough/ Tumble
2 Painful Truths
1 Underground Sea (way better in SB)

What do you think?

[Jonathan Alexander]

Paul Cheon is putting my deck together right now and hopefully going to stream it as well: https://www.twitch.tv/haumph

[LewisCBR]

Logged in just in time to see him get turn 0'd twice by Belcher, lol.

Paul is a great player, but im not sure he has the stones for RUG Delver, it takes a special kind of maniac.

EDIT: He also thought/asked his chat if he could Stifle a Mox Diamond... i think his Legacy knowledge in general is lacking, sorry he will make your deck look like shit.

[rlesko]

Yea, I don't think hes playing optimally unfortunately. Playing out 4-5 lands, fetching oddly, etc. Not trying to knock him, but clearly not an experienced legacy delver player. So take stream with a grain of salt.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Paul and I talked a couple hours ago, I told him the deck is good but he needs experience for it, he said he didn't have enough experience and he shouldn't play the deck. 30 minutes later he says he's streaming Canadian :D

[rlesko]

Paul and I talked a couple hours ago, I told him the deck is good but he needs experience for it, he said he didn't have enough experience and he shouldn't play the deck. 30 minutes later he says he's streaming Canadian :D

Dude you almost made him rage quit telling him wasteland wasn't a land.

[Jonathan Alexander]

At least I don't have to worry about people taking the deck seriously after this stream... Or me, for that matter haha

[rlesko]

At least I don't have to worry about people taking the deck seriously after this stream... Or me, for that matter haha

I wish twitch chat wasn't so dumb. :(

[wcm8]

Is he playing a slightly modified main deck though? It seemed like he had 3 Tarmogoyf. Which might not be all that bad tbh. I sometimes do want more threats, but not sure what would get cut.

[rlesko]

Is he playing a slightly modified main deck though? It seemed like he had 3 Tarmogoyf. Which might not be all that bad tbh. I sometimes do want more threats, but not sure what would get cut.

Hes playing a flavor of the deck that Jonathan Alexander is trying a lot lately.

Scroll back a few pages for list

[Jonathan Alexander]

Is he playing a slightly modified main deck though? It seemed like he had 3 Tarmogoyf. Which might not be all that bad tbh. I sometimes do want more threats, but not sure what would get cut.

-Orb +Goyf maindeck. Other 74 cards are the same.

[wcm8]

-Orb +Goyf maindeck. Other 74 cards are the same.

Hmm, perhaps moving the Orbs to the SB would be okay. But I do love how often that card just wins random game 1s.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I started out with 2 Goyf / 1 Library / 0 Orb main, then moved to 3 Goyf / 0 Library / 0 Orb, now I'm on 2 Goyf / 0 Library / 1 Orb. You almost never want that 13th creature (especially Goyf) and Orb has just been so good for me.

[Vandalize]

I really like 12 creatures in this deck. Running less than 12 makes you need to cantrip into one, and this deck wants to cantrip into answers. We don't generate card advantage in any way, only by controlling tempo, but that makes our resources run out fast. If you can't make your mana denial -> deploy threat plan in the first 3~4 turns, you pretty much lose the game against most of the field. But I guess that's my POV on the deck playstyle, I could be wrong.

My list is the following:

Core:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
Flex:
2 Forked Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Dismember
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Price of Progress
SB: 2 Rough/Tumble
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Invasive Surgery
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Destructive Revelry
SB: 1 Winter Orb

I sometimes switch the second Forked Bolt for another Dismember if I'm expecting an Eldrazy heavy meta. Price of Progress, Invasive Surgery and Pyroblast are the best cards in the sideboard by a good margin. Against Miracles, priority counters: Terminus, Brainstorm, Counterbalance, Sensei's Top. This deck struggles against a resolved TNN, but I guess that's RUG Delver #1 enemy, right?

[wcm8]

I actually don't like having too many creatures in this deck, but the only reason you can get away with this in RUG (but not Grixis and certainly not BUG Delver) is because Mongoose dodges most forms of conventional removal and you can direct Bolts to your opponent to close out the game.

In game 1, a lot of decks don't have enough removal to answer every creature, especially if you can counter some of that removal. Often you only need 1 threat to end the game, and then you just use your permission spells to enable that. Against combo decks, you don't want your hands getting clogged up with creatures and would much rather have more permission.

If 10-11 threats end up not being enough, that's what the sideboard TNNemesis are for. I am also considering running 1-2 Sulfur Elemental since they basically win the DNT matchup on the spot (and I expect this deck to be popular at the GP and is fairly common in my local metagame), answers Lingering Souls and Monastery Mentor, and against combo or control can be cast at EOT and ignores Rest in Peace and such.

[LewisCBR]

Just 5-0'd another league (woo hoo) with this list, hopefully i get the official recognition tomorrow when they update/share the league results:
http://deckstats.net/decks/56084/491...o-grow-version

EDIT: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/426195#paper

[deck]
//Lands
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

//Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Tarfire
1 Winter Orb

//Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Rough // Tumble
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Submerge
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Destructive Revelry
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Winter Orb
[/deck]

I agree with Vandalize... and with wcm/Jonathan. I tried the 10 creature version for a league and didnt like it. Granted, that sample was small, but i felt like too often i was digging for a creature as opposed to simply Brainstorming away creatures if i didnt need them in the traditional version. Pus, sometimes having 3 Goyfs is just fine, like against Eldrazi, or any fair matchup where you just want as many huge creatures as you can get.

However, i am loving Winter Orb and Spell Snares in this meta right now. Snare hits a lot of problem cards like Counterbalance, opposing Goyfs, Baleful Strix, Rest in Peace, Chalice on 1, Hymn, and Young Peezy, just to name a few. It has been much more useful than Pierce for me, lately.

Winter Orb... i might move to the side, but i like the 2 in the 75. My Miracles package of bringing in both Orbs, both REB effects, Fluster, Library, Vortex, and Revelry has been on point. That is a lot of cards to being in for one matchup, but it is amazing how easy it gets to grind that deck in a long game with these in. From a main deck standpoint, though, it might not be worth the non-delver flip. I'll jam it in every matchup i see it, to see how it goes, but it is the most devastating against Miracles, for sure.

My list is mashing together the traditional version, a tarmo-grow version, and Winter Orb... but seems to run just fine. We have Ponders and BS, i think 1-of's and variation/the potential for selection is great in a deck like this.

Lastly, i dont like True Name anywhere around this deck. Anything costing 3 feels digusting, but Vortex is simply that good, it is worth it. Plus, it isnt like we get the most out of TNN, without equipment and all. Just feels bad and super tempo negative when he gets countered. Why put ourselves in the place of what our opponents are supposed to feel? The ideal land situation for our deck is a trop, a volc, and an uncracked fetch, either in play or in your hand. Thats it. Lets think about this, the best case with True Name is you mess up your future brainstorms by actually cracking your 3rd land, you hold you breath while you cast TNN that it doesnt get countered, then if it resolves you have a do nothing for a turn, only to them finally get in for 3 each turn down the road. I'd rather play a 5/6 for 2 mana.

[eldub]

Can someone help me with the uses for Sulfuric Vortex, I'm having quite a bit of hurtburn over the 1RR cost. Obviously the clock it presents against Miracles is great, and I understand locking out the lifelink from Batterskull can be useful... but is there anywhere else I should be utilizing the card? I typically stay away from anything >2 CMC unless I absolutely have to.

[LewisCBR]

Can someone help me with the uses for Sulfuric Vortex, I'm having quite a bit of hurtburn over the 1RR cost. Obviously the clock it presents against Miracles is great, and I understand locking out the lifelink from Batterskull can be useful... but is there anywhere else I should be utilizing the card? I typically stay away from anything >2 CMC unless I absolutely have to.

I think you identified the matchups, its really for Miracles and Stoneforge decks. Which seems small, but not when you run into Miracles 15% of the time online. Stoneforce Mystic decks are still pretty prevalent live, too.

[KobeBryan]

Can someone help me with the uses for Sulfuric Vortex, I'm having quite a bit of hurtburn over the 1RR cost. Obviously the clock it presents against Miracles is great, and I understand locking out the lifelink from Batterskull can be useful... but is there anywhere else I should be utilizing the card? I typically stay away from anything >2 CMC unless I absolutely have to.

Its there for only 2 matchups.

[wcm8]

Playing 4 Tarmogoyfs is arguably a metagame call. If you expect a bunch of other Delver and creature decks, then maxing out is a good thing. But in a metagame with a lot more combo (which seems to be the case in Europe) you'd much rather those slots be permission.

Having tested the 10-creature build a lot lately, finding a threat and keeping it on board has rarely been a problem. And having TNN in the sideboard helps out a lot for where you want more creatures on board. TNN should not be dismissed merely for costing 3 mana, as in grindy matchups you'll frequently get to that point. Daze and FoW still interact when you're tapped out, so it's not as though you're always a sitting duck whenever you play him. TNN is also important because it dodges most forms of removal, is a robust blocker that disables equipped-creatures (Sword of Fire and Ice aside), is unblockable, and perhaps most importantly: ignores Rest in Peace and other grave-hate.

Your "5/6" Tarmos turn into 0/1 do-nothings more frequently than we'd prefer, so in the 10/11-creature build especially, TNN serves an important function.

I would argue that JA's RUG build is much more like a cohesive 75 as opposed to a 60 with a hodge-podge 15.

Regarding graveyard hate: back in ye olde days of early Legacy, Canadian Threshold ran 4 copies of Tormod's Crypt as a concession to the presence of Dredge.

Personally, I am conflicted about running grave hate at all, as devoting 2 slots hardly seems capable of reliably winning games 2 and 3. Against Reanimator, I'd much rather fight them on the stack since they also present the threat of Show and Tell, against Dredge I would hope to either just dodge the match altogether or just get lucky with early delvers and timely stifles; Loam-based decks are just designed to beat Delver in general and Extracting their namesake doesn't really deal with all of the othwe ways they crush us.

That all said, Grafdigger's Cage is reasonably versatile and I suppose a worthy contender for a sideboard slot or two.

Ultimate though, you have to pick your poison. 15 slots are not enough to address every problem out there.