Format speed

[ktkenshinx]

I was having a discussion with some other Magic players and we were wondering what the format's speed is these days. Of course, there is this persistent myth that Legacy is a turn 1 or 0 format full of outrageous combos, and we all know that's not quite true. But with the advent of TNN and the metagame changes that came after he entered, I'm no longer sure what the format's speed is.

What is the "average" turn on which some key decks are winning?
How long do matchups between the different tier 1 decks last?
For those with tournament experience, how long are rounds lasting at big events?

I'm sure there are a bunch of other points related to format speed that we could discuss, but those are my big questions for now.

Thanks!

[Koby]

Legacy certainly has its share of Turn 1 decks, but these are largely fringe players outside of Belcher. A better discussion might revolve around a concept called the Fundamental Turn (article by Zvi). Basically, when does the deck "click into action"?

I posit that most of Legacy's fair decks operate with a FT of 3. Compare this with the forced FT of 4 in Modern (or at least as told by R&D).

[Tea]

Among the most explosives starts are:

• T1: Deathrite Shaman, T2: Lilliana with Daze/Force backup, possibly Wasteland
• T1: Delver, T2: Tarmogoyf, Daze/Force backup
• T1: Duress, comboing off on Turn 3

Can your deck compete with these plays?

[Megadeus]

Among the most explosives starts are:

• T1: Deathrite Shaman, T2: Lilliana with Daze/Force backup, possibly Wasteland
• T1: Delver, T2: Tarmogoyf, Daze/Force backup
• T1: Duress, comboing off on Turn 3

Can your deck compete with these plays?

To be fair, sometimes no deck can keep up with a god hand.

[Tammit67]

To be fair, sometimes no deck can keep up with a god hand.

While you have a point, those starts are the litmus test of the format, just like in Legacy of old T1: Goblin lackey, go was the hallmark.

[Finn]

Compete? Sure
T1 Plains, Vial
T2 Port or Wsateland, Thalia

Versions of this win games before they start. Going first is everything in Legacy.

[Barook]

Going first is everything in Legacy.

This

It's pretty ridiculous how certain matches are pretty much decided with the dice roll.

[Dice_Box]

Unless your Manaless.

Almost all decks have ideal opening plays. Goblins Fish and DnT all want Vial (Or Mother), Ant wants a good setup play, Dredge want's LED and Faithless, Rock wants discard and a clock. The question is what happens when you do not have ideal hands? I think then, outside of combo, its safe to say you can pick what direction the game is going at turn 3. as a rule, Legacy is a turn 3 format. Most decks know what their plan is on turn 3, are moving toward it and have seen enough cards from the top of there deck to start the wheels in motion. While they may not have won the game, at this point about 60% of the time you can look and tell what the likely outcome is. Throw fast combo in and then the numbers become a bit harder to pin down.

Add in control though and you really muddy the waters. Add in Control with a Combo finish and well, fun is insured. In these situations you have to weigh up the decks that are being played. I would say against control, how you play your deck matters more than any turn picked out at random.

There are turn one decks in Legacy, but the term "Glass Cannon" is used for a reason. These are decks that are really quite simple to interact with and I think that people who play formats without cards like Force, Daze and Wasteland may not see how simple they are to stop. Then they mistaken the decks as the norm as they are not use to playing with the tools that disrupt the fast combo's they see.

[Mr Miagi]

There is a world of difference if I start first as Dragon Stompy or second

[twndomn]

Modern combos: turn 4 on average, turn 3 sometimes. If turn 3 or lower is the average, Wizard will just ban it.

Legacy combos (fastest):

turn 1:
belcher
tin-fin (griselbrand storm)
oops-all spell
storm (TES and ANT) variants
(omit show and tell decks because the unlikelihood of hands)

turn 2:
show and tell variants
doomsday

later turns:
alluren, dredge, high tide

in-deterministic:
elves
dredge
stompy

[Higgs]

there is this persistent myth that Legacy is a turn 1 or 0 format full of outrageous combos

Holy shit, when did Legacy become so old that it started replacing Vintage in people's presumptions for an archaic, degenerate format? Btw have these mythsters heard of this other combo called Counter-Top?

[rxavage]

Holy shit, when did Legacy become so old that it started replacing Vintage in people's presumptions for an archaic, degenerate format? Btw have these mythsters heard of this other combo called Counter-Top?

Is that the unanswerable turn 2 combo that completely locks you out of the game by countering all your spells and drags the first game out for the entirety of the round resulting in you losing or a draw while never ever getting to resolve a single spell or make a land drop?

[FTW]

Modern combos: turn 4 on average, turn 3 sometimes. If turn 3 or lower is the average, Wizard will just ban it.

Legacy combos (fastest):

turn 1:
belcher
tin-fin (griselbrand storm)
oops-all spell
storm (TES and ANT) variants
(omit show and tell decks because the unlikelihood of hands)

turn 2:
show and tell variants
doomsday

later turns:
alluren, dredge, high tide

in-deterministic:
elves
dredge
stompy

TES/ANT are not turn 1 decks anymore than SnT. Any deck with 12-ish cantrips and protection is not designed to be a turn 1 deck. Sure, you get those double Dark Ritual Ad Nauseam openers. But they're no more likely than Ancient Tomb + Lotus Petal -> Show and Tell. "turn 1" decks are generally glass cannons, even if some of the more resilient decks can theoretically pull turn 1 wins. For the OP and anyone newer to Legacy (i.e. anyone who characterizes Legacy as we would characterize Vintage), I think it's better to break them into the following categories.


A. Glass cannon "turn 1" decks: (can win turn 1. runs little-to-no protection or card control. aims to get lucky, win die roll and win immediately. beat by running Island)
Belcher
Spanish Inquisition
Cheerios
Oops All Spells
Tin Fins


B. Cantrip+Protect+combo "turn 2" decks: (can win turn 1 if exceptionally lucky but primary plan is to sculpt a good hand with cantrips and then go off with protection)
ANT
TES
Doomsday
SneakShow
OmniTell
Reanimator
Spiral Tide/Solidarity (sort-of... same gameplan but a turn 3-4 deck since dependent on land drops)


C. Creature-based combo: (involve playing a bunch of creatures. critical turn varies. plan A combo vulnerable to creature removal but has strong plan B of just going beatdown with dorks)
Elves
Aluren
Food Chain-Griffin
Painter's Stone


D. "Is this guy even playing Magic???":
Dredge

[joretapo]

If you are talking about the turn in which you can die all the answers about god hands are right but in my opinion it is more relevant to talk about the fundamental turn which is when a deck s strategy comes online as stated by the first answer to your question.

[Tylert]

WHat's the critical turn for dredge?
I faced it several times in my last tournaments, and usually, I could say they have won by turn 2 (even if they were not comboing off this turn), and sometimes turn 1.

[Megadeus]

WHat's the critical turn for dredge?
I faced it several times in my last tournaments, and usually, I could say they have won by turn 2 (even if they were not comboing off this turn), and sometimes turn 1.

Turn 2 is farily critical. T1 they have to have a REAL nutty hand. But generally turn 2-3 is when they really start doing this unimpeded.

[Lemnear]

Turn 2 is farily critical. T1 they have to have a REAL nutty hand. But generally turn 2-3 is when they really start doing this unimpeded.

This is overly dependant of which build we speak. LED Dredge is easily more than a turn faster than manaless

[Megadeus]

This is overly dependant of which build we speak. LED Dredge is easily more than a turn faster than manaless

Right, but they aren't generally winning on T1

[Lemnear]

Right, but they aren't generally winning on T1

I have never seen Manaless winning turn 1, so I guess my point wasn't off ;P

[Bed Decks Palyer]

If you are talking about the turn in which you can die all the answers about god hands are right but in my opinion it is more relevant to talk about the fundamental turn which is when a deck s strategy comes online as stated by the first answer to your question.

Just a small sidenote: while Legacy definitely isn't "herp derp turn1 kill" as outlanders think, the fundamental turn is somewhere around turn 2-3 which is quite fast. Otoh, I remember the times when this could be said about our casual metagame, where "turn1 Elf, turn2 Stone Rain, turn3 Pillage" meant gg quite often.