[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

I had an interesting idea, wanna hear your guys thoughts. Personally, I am sticking to the Stifle build. Gonna test a couple of Phyrexian Dreadnoughts as a win con, try to sneak them into playwith Stifle since its a situational card and would give it more versatility.

[btm10]

I had an interesting idea, wanna hear your guys thoughts. Personally, I am sticking to the Stifle build. Gonna test a couple of Phyrexian Dreadnoughts as a win con, try to sneak them into playwith Stifle since its a situational card and would give it more versatility.

That seems awful. Without Stifle, Dreadnought is a great big do-nothing.

I am curious as to how BUG is going to develop in the new meta.
In general I think the newest developments weaken the “old” BUG a lot.

- No access to red blast
- Treasure cruise strengthens other decks more than BUG
- How much better is drawing cards then a 5/5 flyer?
- Swiftspear/Pyromancer with many spells or SFM/Nemesis lategame is more powerful than drawing more deathrites, decays and tarmogofs…)

- Disfigure is much weaker due to not killing Swiftspear
- Dismember (paying 4 life) is much weaker due to U/R popularity
- Hymn to Tourach is a lot weaker due to decks being able to easier compensate with Treasure Cruise
- Liliana is much weaker due to swiftspear / burn

Recent TC results (as also discussed) in this thread indicate that adopting treasure seems to be the right thing and Thoughtseize/Stifle > ‘heavy black’ Hymn to tourach/Liliana.

Still, I feel there is no current “best build” and I don’t foresee it BUG getting back on top unless more innovation or meta shift happen.

I think Liliana is still a viable choice in the deck, but that Hymn is past its prime because it's slow and consumes a lot of mana for minimal return in the face of Crusie. I think that Ghastly Demise is a better MD removal spell than Disfigure, but I really don't like non-Decay, non-Dimir Charm removal in the maindeck right now. It's easier to hit a Swiftspear with Charm than it is to hit it with Disfigure, and Charm is, as I've said before, almost never dead. Moreover, I think that the medium-run post-Cruise meta is a pretty hospitable one for BUG. UR is really the starting point because of how cheap to build it is, and not only do we have a strong matchup against it, it encourages people to play things like Miracles (because Counterbalance/Top is insane against cmc1.dec), combo in general and ANT/TES (because UR cuts counters for more cantrips and burn in game 1), and Blade decks (because Batterskull and Jitte are very good against dork swarms and burn). While cutting down on the amount of Elves and D&T we're likely to see because of how good Forked Bolt is against them.

In short, UR will reduce the numbers of one of our worst matchups (Elves), and increase some of our best (UR itself and ANT/TES), while also likely increasing the number of Miracles decks (a favorable-to-even matchup) and Blade decks (highly build dependent, slightly favorable to slightly unfavorable) with the last two trends being mostly a wash. Add in the fact that there are fewer Blood Moons flying around and the fact that we're far and away the hardest to REB/Pyroblast of any Blue-based deck, and we're pretty well positioned. We may not Cruise as well as UR or UWR, but we have such a natively high power level that the Cruises we're casting are better than our opponents Cruises.

[Borealis]

I had an interesting idea, wanna hear your guys thoughts. Personally, I am sticking to the Stifle build. Gonna test a couple of Phyrexian Dreadnoughts as a win con, try to sneak them into playwith Stifle since its a situational card and would give it more versatility.

While I wouldn't call this idea awful by any stretch, I do think it might be trying to fit too much into the BUG shell. Typically in the past, Stifle-Nought builds have been base UR, sometimes with a green splash for Goyf. Red provides cheaper interaction, allowing you to leave up mana easier when necessary, while still letting you resolve Nought+Stifle with Pyroblast backup or similar, and the Bolts are pretty relevant for clearing blockers or finishing off your opponent alongside your 12/12 robot. It's probably still fine in the BUG shell as a "gotcha" mechanic to blow out your random local opponents, but I'm not sure I'd want to run it through a bigger tournament, even in the RUG shell. It's a sweet combo, but it has some serious weaknesses, and sets you up for an easy 2-for-1 once your opponent sees what's up. Still, I know for a fact that Bob Huang considered it for GP Jersey, so it has some obvious strengths too. If you're jamming Stifle anyway, I'd say go for it. I'm also intrigued, but don't see myself hunting down copies of Dreadnought just for a short-term experiment personally.

[FoolofaTook]

Phyrexian Dreadnought doesn't really work unless you have a lot of card advantage alongside it to make up for the inevitable 2-for-1's you lose with it.

The best dreadnought list ever was the UR version that a couple of people in the northeast were banging with regularly in the 2008 to 2010 meta. It was good because it had a bunch of ways to get card advantage, including Standstill, Counterbalance and Trinket Mage. It was good because it also packed a Trickbind or 2 in the list. It was good because it was simple and it did not have much vulnerability to mana disruption. It was in the mana disruption business itself.

Throwing dreadnought into BUG would require a re-imagining of the list. Otherwise it's just building in card disadvantage in exchange for the occasional free win.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

Sorry guys for even bringing the idea up on the dreadnought. I appreciate the discussion, and realize the stupidity. Fool said it best "Otherwise it's just building in card disadvantage in exchange for the occasional free win con". I'm gonna continue to experiment with a single copy in the sideboard. See if it can steal me a game. Very easy to cast with a stifle, but harder to resolve.

+1 on updating the op, definitely over due

[Zodiac_Dragon]

What to you guys think is the better choice for a smaller tourment (50-70 players) in the current meta:

Stifle version vs. Thoughtseize version

Are there any guidelines or is it just personal preference? Because there are so many lists flying around at the moment. What do you guys think about a version which includes Stifle and TS? Maybe a 3/3 split.

Thanks in advance. :-)

[Asthereal]

What to you guys think is the better choice for a smaller tourment (50-70 players) in the current meta:

Stifle version vs. Thoughtseize version

Are there any guidelines or is it just personal preference? Because there are so many lists flying around at the moment. What do you guys think about a version which includes Stifle and TS? Maybe a 3/3 split.

Thanks in advance. :-)

Stifle is mostly good against grinders, who play fetch heavy Delver decks or Miracles.
In a smaller tournament, the randomness factor is higher. People play pet decks and weird stuff.
Against weird random stuff, Thoughtseize is pretty good (get that Trinisphere before it hits!).

So in a smaller tourney where you expect lots of different stuff, I'd recommend Thoughtseize.
If you know most players are highly competitive and play grinder style blue decks, I'd go for Stifle.

Edit: Personal note: I play Spell Pierce instead of those two. But you didn't ask about that.

[FoolofaTook]

Stifle is mostly good against grinders, who play fetch heavy Delver decks or Miracles.
In a smaller tournament, the randomness factor is higher. People play pet decks and weird stuff.
Against weird random stuff, Thoughtseize is pretty good (get that Trinisphere before it hits!).

So in a smaller tourney where you expect lots of different stuff, I'd recommend Thoughtseize.
If you know most players are highly competitive and play grinder style blue decks, I'd go for Stifle.

Edit: Personal note: I play Spell Pierce instead of those two. But you didn't ask about that.

This is the right angle to take on the TS vs Stifle debate. TS really punishes non-optimized lists. Stifle is better against the highly focused ones. Neither card is optimal in today's meta and finding the right play set to put in the slot is what BUG needs to do right now.

DRS and Abrupt Decay are what the black splash is for. Tarmogoyf and Krosan Grip in the side alongside those two in the main is why we play green. Golgari Charm in the SB combines both splashes.

So right now the 12 cards that define BUG in the meta are DRS, Abrupt Decay and Tarmogoyf. We need to find at least 4 really strong cards that play alongside those 12 to keep up with Stoneforge Mystic, Jitte - Batterskull - Sword, Young Pyromancer, Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares and Pyroblast. Those are the 20-odd spells that define the UWR shell right now. They're collectively better than DRS, Abrupt Decay and Tarmogoyf with a wider range of applications and less dead draw late.

In the old meta of August we also had power in the form of Hymn to Tourach and Liliana of the Veil in the list but the new meta has made both of those cards less good.

[btm10]

This is the right angle to take on the TS vs Stifle debate. TS really punishes non-optimized lists. Stifle is better against the highly focused ones. Neither card is optimal in today's meta and finding the right play set to put in the slot is what BUG needs to do right now.

I think both cards are fine in the current meta, but you need to be conscious of how you're positioning your deck when you choose which to run. Thoughtseize means you're trying to out-grind Blade decks and Miracles. Stifle means you're all-in on the tempo plan. Both work, but they're going to dictate other choices.

DRS and Abrupt Decay are what the black splash is for.

Both black and green are there for both DRS and Decay. The deck, indeed BGx as a player in the meta, exists largely because of DRS and Decay.

Tarmogoyf and Krosan Grip in the side alongside those two in the main is why we play green. Golgari Charm in the SB combines both splashes.

I agree on Goyf, though Grip is less important than Golgari Charm and Sylvan Library. You could get the same result as Grip if you were splashing white for Disenchant; being able to destroy Top is a nice bonus that pushes us to Grip over Naturalize. This is a very minor point.

So right now the 12 cards that define BUG in the meta are DRS, Abrupt Decay and Tarmogoyf. We need to find at least 4 really strong cards that play alongside those 12 to keep up with Stoneforge Mystic, Jitte - Batterskull - Sword, Young Pyromancer, Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares and Pyroblast. Those are the 20-odd spells that define the UWR shell right now. They're collectively better than DRS, Abrupt Decay and Tarmogoyf with a wider range of applications and less dead draw late.

Here's where I think we're still disagreeing. The SFM package alongside Young Pyromancer and Bolt+Plow is good, but it's not head and shoulders above BUG right now. I'm also not sure what you mean by less of a dead draw late. Pyromancer takes multiple spells (and frequently a turn) to get going, and a late 'mancer out of UWR Blade is either going to be past the point of no return for us (i.e., we're already beaten) or just a stalling tactic to chump block Tarmogoyf until they can find removal for it, a stalling tactic that's not likely to be effective because we also have Treasure Cruise (so the odds that Peezy is coming down when we're empty handed are low). In contrast, a late Tarmogoyf just shows up as a 4/5 and requires no further setup. Postboard we've got additional removal for their artifacts (so you usually only care about Decaying Pyromancers, non-Batterskull equiment, and the occasional Counterbalance) additional generic creature removal (Disfigure), and Golgari Charm for mopping up Elemental tokens or for countering Supreme Verdict. I've also started testing Divert out of the board and have been happy with it.

[Asthereal]

... though Grip is less important than Golgari Charm and Sylvan Library. You could get the same result as Grip if you were splashing white for Disenchant; being able to destroy Top is a nice bonus that pushes us to Grip over Naturalize. This is a very minor point.

Actually, Batterskull for me is the major reason to want Grip over Naturalize.

[FoolofaTook]

Actually, Batterskull for me is the major reason to want Grip over Naturalize.

The order for me is Sensei's Divining Top, Batterskull, Counterbalance, Umezawa's Jitte and then the Swords. That's where Krosan Grip prevents mid-game blowouts. It's also one of the better cards against random lists which tend to feature more enchantments and artifacts than optimized lists. Abrupt Decay manages Counterbalance, Jitte - albeit without preventing counter activations of various sorts and it handles the Swords. Having decay 5 and maybe 6 in those matchups is fine.

Against Miracles I tune out a couple of my decays and tune in a couple of grips. That's because Miracles lists tend to tune out Counterbalance once they see BGx. Having grip against top is wonderful. Still having 4 ways to ditch Rest in Peace is good too. Playing against Miracles is a whole different experience when they don't have a top on the table.

Against things like D&T and Stoneblade you want all your artifact removal in the list. Even then it isn't enough some times but having 6 pieces of removal for things like vials, Batterskull and various equipment is a great thing. Having 4 of them take out a creature also is really good.

[Zodiac_Dragon]

Thanks to all of you, regarding your thoughts. :)

Edit: Personal note: I play Spell Pierce instead of those two. But you didn't ask about that.

How many SP did you play? I would play a couple of SP in addition to Stifle or TS because it hits so many cards we won't see on the table.

[exallium]

Thanks to all of you, regarding your thoughts. :)



How many SP did you play? I would play a couple of SP in addition to Stifle or TS because it hits so many cards we won't see on the table.

My "go to" number of pierces has always been 3 in the 75, usually all 3 in the sideboard.

[Asthereal]

How many SP did you play? I would play a couple of SP in addition to Stifle or TS because it hits so many cards we won't see on the table.

I have been running the full set of four in my 75 for a while now. Current setup is 3 main and the last one side. I know many here feel Fluster and Envelop are often better, but Pierce is the only one that is always good. Additionally I tend to side out Dazes often when I am on the draw, and the sideboard Pierces I run just somehow always find their way into my deck. I really like my Pierces.

Last tourney I went for blue overload with:
MAIN 4x Force, 4x Daze, 3x Pierce
SIDE 1x Pierce, 2x Fluster, 2x Envelop
It felt really strong all tourney. I didn't extensively test it though.

So there's my personal opinion.

[btm10]

Thanks to all of you, regarding your thoughts. :)



How many SP did you play? I would play a couple of SP in addition to Stifle or TS because it hits so many cards we won't see on the table.

Right now I'm on 2 Pierce/3 Thoughtseize/1 Dimir Charm main, though the 3rd Thoughtseize could easily be yhe second Dimir Charm.

[jnosrati]

Thoughts on the death's shadow suicide bug deck that just got featured at scg? I expect that most people will just say it's bad, but lets just assume its good for a sec and discuss its +/-

[btm10]

I think it's an interesting idea. At first glance, feel like it's better with something like Berserk to give it trample to go over the top. In Pyromancer land I don't like it as much (without Trample) because it's so easy to chump.

[FoolofaTook]

I think it's an interesting idea. At first glance, feel like it's better with something like Berserk to give it trample to go over the top. In Pyromancer land I don't like it as much (without Trample) because it's so easy to chump.

If you're going to do something like this why wouldn't you just go the Stiflenought route? Stifle is already useful in the build in other ways and Death's Shadow is no more useful than Phyrexian Dreadnought in most cases and less useful in more than a few.

I don't think Stiflenought would be good, btw, just that Death's Shadow is a bad card and adding Berserk to make it good seems like it's even worse than Stiflenought.

[btm10]

If you're going to do something like this why wouldn't you just go the Stiflenought route? Stifle is already useful in the build in other ways and Death's Shadow is no more useful than Phyrexian Dreadnought in most cases and less useful in more than a few.

I don't think Stiflenought would be good, btw, just that Death's Shadow is a bad card and adding Berserk to make it good seems like it's even worse than Stiflenought.

Shadow has several advantages over Dreadnought, the most obvious being that it doesn't require a two-card combo to do anything, it just requires that you take (incremental) damage, which is going to happen in almost any matchups anyway. Ultimately, the card is probably suboptimal, but its clearly not beyond consideration. I definitely don't understand or agree with all of the deck construction decisions that were made - Scavenging Ooze looks strange, especially given that Fornace seems to have built his deck to optimize Shadow - but I'm more likely to write off 'nought than I am Death's Shadow.

[KobeBryan]

why not just play rancor in this case instead of berserk