[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[TheHeff]

WLL is just part of the reason why I don't like Liliana against D&T. The main one is that they tend to swarm the board and can simply sacrifice something irrelevant, then kill her. They tend to drop their hand faster than we do, so it's more often that when you +1 her, you're losing something and they won't. Aether Vial also makes Liliana much worse as they can either flash in their last card in response to her +1 and her -2 has a tough time catching flash creatures.

Agree with this 100%. I played D&T tonight in my Legacy FNM, going 2-1 overall and 2-1 against D&T after losing the die roll, so not too shabby there (thanks again to Esper3k for the SB tips!). Both times I managed to drop Lili in G2 and G3 she ended up killing 2 SFMs, hitting a plains and a revoker on discard, and died shortly after she dropped to combat damage despite leaving blockers back. I didn't have too many other SB cards I wanted to bring in so I left her in, but I wasn't very impressed- in that position it's hard for her to pull you ahead from being behind and unless you get her out T2 on the play against an empty board (which almost never happens), she's mana better spend dropping threats or keeping a Mom/Vial off the table.

As an aside, I had a conversation tonight with a guy who plays a ton of legacy events and had played BUG Delver for a long time about the merits of Tombstalker in today's meta. We both agreed that with the rise of fair decks (containing white/Jace) and the amount of sideboarded Submerges, Tombstalker gets much worse. I've been toying with swapping them out for 1 MD Clique and 1 MD Library and opening up two sideboard slots. Does anyone have any experience playing with SB cards like Maelstrom Pulse, Jitte, Life from the Loam? I'm looking for some ways to tweak the deck to be more comfortable in longer games and have considered those.

[Manipulato]

Agree with this 100%. I played D&T tonight in my Legacy FNM, going 2-1 overall and 2-1 against D&T after losing the die roll, so not too shabby there (thanks again to Esper3k for the SB tips!). Both times I managed to drop Lili in G2 and G3 she ended up killing 2 SFMs, hitting a plains and a revoker on discard, and died shortly after she dropped to combat damage despite leaving blockers back. I didn't have too many other SB cards I wanted to bring in so I left her in, but I wasn't very impressed- in that position it's hard for her to pull you ahead from being behind and unless you get her out T2 on the play against an empty board (which almost never happens), she's mana better spend dropping threats or keeping a Mom/Vial off the table.

As an aside, I had a conversation tonight with a guy who plays a ton of legacy events and had played BUG Delver for a long time about the merits of Tombstalker in today's meta. We both agreed that with the rise of fair decks (containing white/Jace) and the amount of sideboarded Submerges, Tombstalker gets much worse. I've been toying with swapping them out for 1 MD Clique and 1 MD Library and opening up two sideboard slots. Does anyone have any experience playing with SB cards like Maelstrom Pulse, Jitte, Life from the Loam? I'm looking for some ways to tweak the deck to be more comfortable in longer games and have considered those.

Hi,
the white decks (Miralces, Blade, DnT) are the reason why I play 2 Cliques in my SB, so that I can switch them in G2/G3 for the cliques and dont lose pressure...
I played Pulse as a 2off in my SB in the past and it was very strong against Miracles (Jace, Angel Token, Balance etc) but most of the time you cant cast it against decks like DnT which is really poor. Nowadays I play 2 Toxic Deluge in that slot which hels against a lot of decks....

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings All!

Dragonslayer_90 and I played some legacy locals again this week. We were both playing BUG Delver (again). Here is my updated list...

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Dimir Charm
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Force of Will
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disfigure
1 Null Rod
2 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Submerge

As for the configuration, I decided to try to play the fewest number of potentially dead cards when playing an unknown opponent. The local meta has been about 50/50 tribal/midrange and combo. That being said, I didn't want to be running maindeck Disfigure or Spell Pierce because if you maindeck the creature removal and get paired against High Tide you have dead cards and the converse can be true of the counter spells in the aggro/midrange match ups. We had four rounds this week. I played against Tom with Oops All Spells, winning (2-0); Feline with Belcher, winning (2-0); Luke with Burn, winning (2-0), and Ian with Merfolk, intentionally drawing (0-0-3; 2-0). Ian and I decided to split the store credit prize and play for the free tournament entry. We played two games and I was able to win both of them.

The deck felt very solid, but now after playing a few weeks with nearly the same configuration, I think I will be exchanging a Tropical Island for a Polluted Delta. I have not had very many (if any that I can remember) hands wherein the two Trops have really hurt me as far as casting spells (Hymn to Tourach and Liliana of the Veil), but when considering this change you are dealing with the consistency to cast your spells versus gaining some percentages versus Stifle and Wasteland. Ultimately that is both a preference and/or metagame call.

I have a couple neat items to share from the games that I played. The first was my second game against Tom with Oops All Spells. He is on the play and my opening seven is piss poor, so I ship it for six. The six are Wasteland, Bayou, Force of Will, Force of Will, Daze, and Ponder. I consider for a moment... as this hand does very little in the abstract; however, here it counters his actual spells and possibly a Cabal Therapy if necessary. So I keep and he cast Gitaxian Probe for 2 life and sees the grip. He ponders for a moment and passes. I was relieved that he didn't have the Therapy to force me to cast one of the Forces. I draw for turn and hit a Grafdigger's Cage. I play Bayou into Cage and pass back. He draws and tanks hard... then concedes. So I guess Grafdigger's Cage is sometimes a combo kill? Cast one spell and win the game!?

The second scenario was against Ian with Merfolk. Game two he is on the play. I keep Misty Rainforest x2, Wasteland, Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoyf, Engineered Plague, and Liliana of the Veil. A pretty solid hand I would say but it does require items to line up favorably for me. My opponent plays Island and passes. I draw a second Deathrite for turn. I play a Misty, fetch Bayou and cast Deathrite. My opponent plays a second Island and plays a Silvergill Adept revealing a Lord of Atlantis. He then also Submerged my Deathrite. So I draw my Deathrite. Play Misty, fetch Bayou number two and cast and resolve both Deathrites. My opponent draws, plays the revealed Lord of Atlantis and then attacks with the now 3/2 Silvergill. I choose to double block trading one of the Deathrites. On my turn I play Wasteland and cast Liliana of the Veil (playing around Daze; basically forcing him to have Daze x2 or Force of Will and blue card) and use the -2, forcing him to sacrifice his Lord. His next turn is land and a True-Name Nemesis. My next turn is Engineered Plague and we both discard to Lili's +1. I pass back. He looks at the board, his hand and conceded. All of the answers I had drawn were a bit conditional and required things to come together is a particular manner. However either I made the right choices in lining them up or my opponent played loose... maybe a bit of each. As always thanks for reading!

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

Seems like BUG tends to struggle against white decks. Here's a crazy idea, think a Stromgald Cabal in the sideboard would make a huge difference?

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[KobeBryan]

Seems like BUG tends to struggle against white decks. Here's a crazy idea, think a Stromgald Cabal in the sideboard would make a huge difference?

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk 2

Too much vial in white decks.

You'd die from paying to counter.

[Thorhammer]

Took second at a small 8 man local event last night but some interesting insights as always. A list then A brief report:
Land
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

4 deathrite shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana of The Veil


Board:
3 Disfigure
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Submerge
1 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
2 Golgari Charm
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod

Match 1: Shardless BUG
As familiar as I am with the deck I have never faced Shardless.... Game 1 a hymn to tourach hits the best possible cards in agent and goyf. It is back and forth for a while and I resolve a sylvan library with a goyf in my hand. He has had a card in his hand for a while and I assume it is force. I rip a hymn off of Library and clear his last card which turned out to be a sandbagged Jace! Yikes! The game ends quickly from there.
Game 2 is a long one which of course is not good for the Team player. It is a pitched battle back and forth and I legitimately think I have a shot until, in a matter of two turns, he has strix, agent agent, jitter, and I have Bayou. What the heck happened? Jitte and vision will do that I guess.
Game 3 I have the nuts. Delver into goyf into double abrupt decay on both his threats. Another goyf stomps him down to make sure he's dead.

Match 2: Junk Depths
I win very easily as Team does what team does best, utilize death rite shaman... Hymn and daze keep him from resolving relevant things and an early flipped delver keeps a good clock going. Game 2 he floods a bit and mysteriously living wishes for a wasteland while I have a death rite. A submerge on a knight finishes him.

Match 3: RUG Delver
Game one I foolishly think i can deal with a mongoose and decide not to force it. i don' find a goyf or lili and the stupid 3/3 ends me. Game 2 is back and forth but i drop two goofs and am fairly confident. I attack into his lone goyf with a disfigure in my hand. He blocks and I disfigure and he has MISDIRECTION!!!! Bah. The game went downhill from there as he finds land after I waste him twice and finds plenty of burn in the form of bolt and Chain lightning.

Interesting set of matched in that I won the supposedly bad matchup and lost the supposedly good matchup. Misdirection out of RUG is unorthodox of course but a blow out non the less. Submerge was awesome all night and I successfully tucked a death rite against shard less which just feels dirty. I like the list going forward as a list geared towards edging out miracles and delver variants.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Hey guys. So I'm in Somerset for the weekend. Did not hit up the invitational even though I was qualified because I haven't been playing standard. Thus, I've just been durdling and being a degenerate while my friends play I will be playing in the legacy open this Sunday though. I am not sure if I'm playing BUG Delver but if I do here's what I'm thinking of registering:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Disfigure
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Liliana of the Veil

SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Disfigure
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Submerge

What I'm not sure about is if I want to be playing 4 Abrupt Decay and two Lili or the current removal suite I'm running. The advantage of this main deck removal suite is that you are a little more effiecient at controlling the board, which is important in Delver mirrors obviously. As most of us know, sometimes Abrupt Decay costs too much. The down side is that we have more dead cards main deck when we get paired against combo. Recently I've been favoring the main deck disfigure approach as the general meta is pretty fair at the moment.

As for the sideboard I like most of the slots, but would love any input and/or constructive criticism on it. Particularly, I'm wondering if I need something to blow out shardless? I don't know what to make of that matchup. I used to think they are were favored but in my testing I seem to be winning half the games because sometimes they don't do anything to affect the board so you just kill them. One sideboard card I was considering is Winter Orb for Miracles and midrange decks. I'm just not sure what I would cut and whether it is worth it.

[Thorhammer]

Hey guys. So I'm in Somerset for the weekend. Did not hit up the invitational even though I was qualified because I haven't been playing standard. Thus, I've just been durdling and being a degenerate while my friends play I will be playing in the legacy open this Sunday though. I am not sure if I'm playing BUG Delver but if I do here's what I'm thinking of registering:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Disfigure
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Liliana of the Veil

SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Disfigure
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Submerge

What I'm not sure about is if I want to be playing 4 Abrupt Decay and two Lili or the current removal suite I'm running. The advantage of this main deck removal suite is that you are a little more effiecient at controlling the board, which is important in Delver mirrors obviously. As most of us know, sometimes Abrupt Decay costs too much. The down side is that we have more dead cards main deck when we get paired against combo. Recently I've been favoring the main deck disfigure approach as the general meta is pretty fair at the moment.

As for the sideboard I like most of the slots, but would love any input and/or constructive criticism on it. Particularly, I'm wondering if I need something to blow out shardless? I don't know what to make of that matchup. I used to think they are were favored but in my testing I seem to be winning half the games because sometimes they don't do anything to affect the board so you just kill them. One sideboard card I was considering is Winter Orb for Miracles and midrange decks. I'm just not sure what I would cut and whether it is worth it.

I have definitely always wanted to try winter orb. If you do let me know how it works out. I have a feeling it is on par with Needle and Null Rod at least against Miracles.
I can never bring myself to cut abrupt decay. With all the Shardless running around and delver, I just feel like a want something that works 100% of the time every time. I also prefer two Lili as she has applications against so many decks in the field. There are not many decks that don't cringe when she hits. Miracles, Delver, Shardless, depths, storm, even sneak and show is annoyed to see her show up. The only time I really board her out is certain combo decks, and elves.

I like yer board. The 2 submerge should be quite good against shard less. But the card that really blows them out if you can avoid Mr. Mindsculptor is Tombstalker.

[venice]

Hi everyone,

I took down yet another local tournament today. Playing 5 rounds, I faced the following MUs:

R1: Mirror Win 2:1
R2: Reanimator Win 2:0
R3: Mirror Win 2:0
R4: Thoughtlash Combo Win 2:1
R5: Mirror (we decided to split and play for the 1st pick, I win 2:0)

So 4-0-1 (5-0) total. Facing the mirrormatch 3 times today was a good practice. I now feel like boarding in Spell Pierce is definitely right here. As always, True Name Nemesis was awesome all day, I also tryed out 2 Golgari Charms over 2 Vendilion Cliques in the SB. Unfortunately I didn't really need them, so I cannot comment on that. In theory I want them as additional sweep against D+T and Elves, or vs Supreme Verdicts. I guess I will just keep testing different SB configurations...if only we had like 17 SB slots available, there are so many good options, its hard to choose.

[iostream]

Went 7-2-1 (ID into top 32 in round 10) with BUG Delver at the Legacy Open in Somerset today. I played 3 Stifles maindeck and they were great all day. It's the real deal - try it out! I beat Shardless BUG twice, combo Elves twice, Zombardment once, Jund once, and Omnitell once. My two losses were to 12-Post and Jund. I can post a list if anyone cares, but I'll keep it short for now since I'm exhausted.

I agree with Dragonslayer (who I believe I personally met at the open after playing against him in the Open Trial the night before - hi!) that Shardless is not a bad matchup for us. They play a bunch of 1/1's for 2 and 2/2's for 3 and their deck just seems so diluted because of it. Basically, when you play against them, it seems like they have very few ways to convert their card advantage into actually killing you. Stifles are particularly good here since they have so little countermagic. In one game, I managed to Stifle not one, but two Ancestral Visions coming off of suspend, once through a Force. That was disgusting. But in another game, a Visions and a Strix actually resolved and I still was able to roll over him just by jamming a bunch of threats.

[Dice_Box]

Do post a list, it would be interesting to see what you had.

On other news, we have the BUG charm. Pulse is better.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

On other news, we have the BUG charm. Pulse is better.[/QUOTE]

The new BUG charm is a disappointment, definitely agree Pulse and Toxic Deluge are way better options.



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[iostream]

Do post a list, it would be interesting to see what you had.

It was totally stock except for the Stifles:

Lands (20)
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island

Creatures (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
1 True-Name Nemesis

Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Stifle
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
1 Sylvan Library
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Krosan Grip
1 Force of Will
1 Pithing Needle

I think going forward, it might be nice to have a harder piece of graveyard hate in the sideboard (I got Life from the Loam/Wasteland locked in one game against Punishing Jund) and perhaps another TNN somewhere in the 75, either as a 14th threat or possibly replacing the fourth Goyf. I didn't miss Tombstalker at all.

What do you all think about the two different 18 land/0 Hymn/0 Liliana decklists that made top 8 of the Invitational? The decklists are here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...=8&event_ID=21

It seems so strange to give up the discard spells and to play so few mana sources for the three-drops...

[carnifex]

Just FYI, both lists were almost identical to the list that John Wiley popularized with a recent top 8 open finish (and multiple lifetime open top 8s with similar no-hymn builds). They are not the first to do it, and I am surprised to see so little discussion about the no-discard, pro-stifle lists such as these.

Maybe it is time we discuss the merits of these different styles?

[iostream]

Just FYI, both lists were almost identical to the list that John Wiley popularized with a recent top 8 open finish (and multiple lifetime open top 8s with similar no-hymn builds). They are not the first to do it, and I am surprised to see so little discussion about the no-discard, pro-stifle lists such as these.

Maybe it is time we discuss the merits of these different styles?

I think I can see the theory justification for doing it, but I'm not sure. Maybe the logic is like this:

You want Stifle because of its utility, and if you run both Stifle and Wasteland, you're going to mana screw people a decent fraction of the time, which makes your discard weaker, so why not run other things instead of Hymn and Lili? The thing I don't get is why you run Bobs in those slots. It is a very weak attacker, so if you're going to try to out-tempo people, grinding with Bob doesn't make a whole lot of sense (not to mention that flipping Force is awful). If you want to play that aggressively, why not just play RUG? Is Abrupt Decay really that good? If it's just because you need some kind of card advantage now that you don't run Hymn, then what's the point? It actually seems to me like Bob would be better in the 20 land + discard versions of this deck... The other free slots going to Spell Pierce is understandable as a metagame call - these could easily be Disfigures or Gitaxian Probes or whatever. The pilots probably just expected there wouldn't be much D+T or Elves around.

On the other hand, I've found that Hymn to Tourach specifically can help solidify your mana-denial plan by randomly screwing people out of their lands in hand. Turn 1 Deathrite into turn 2 Wasteland+Hymn is often game over. It's also just generally useful to have another angle of attack since converting extra cards into wins can sometimes be tricky. For example, Elves doesn't really care about you flipping a few possibly useless extra cards off of Bob as much as it cares about you stripping the Natural Order or Cradle out of its hand.

[ESG]

We touched on that style briefly back at post No. 567 and post No. 461. Jerry Mee's build and his preliminary discussion of it is in post No. 461. Jerry Mee's list differs more than these other lists in that he cut Tarmogoyf from the deck, but there's some crossover.

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings All!

Dragonslayer_90, btm10, CroSS.24, and I played some legacy locals again this week. We all save Dragonslayer_90, played some flavor of BUG Delver. He forsook us to play that ANT deck... . I played very nearly the same 75, only changing a Polluted Delta for a Tropical Island.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Dimir Charm
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Force of Will
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disfigure
1 Null Rod
2 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Submerge

I stuck with the no Disfigure and no Spell Pierce in the main deck configuration as it has been serving me rather well. We had four rounds again this week. I played against John Wiley (CroSS.24, the progenitor of Wiley BUG, the Stifle build) with BUG Delver, winning (2-1); Adam with ANT, winning (2-1); Dan with Burn, winning (2-1), and Gus with Sneak and Show, intentionally drawing (0-0-3; 0-2). Gus and I decided to split the store credit prize and play for the free tournament entry. We played two games and I was edged out in two close games.

Just a couple interesting points, Wiley (CroSS.24) kept a double Wasteland hand with no colored sources in our game one. This gave me enough time to come back from my mulligan to 5 on the play to win. Essentially the same thing happened in game three. He kept a hand with one colored source and I was able to punish that pretty brutally. Our game three looked like this, I fetched for a Underground Sea and played Deathrite Shaman. He played fetched into Sea and played a Delver of Secrets. I followed with Wasteland to take out his Sea, removed his Sea with Deathrite to make black for a Disfigure targeting his Delver. I then tapped my Sea for a Delver. He bricked off for a few turns and that was all she wrote. I think Jon's build is very strong, but my experience playing it has been marred by games where the deck loses to itself. More specifically opposing Wastelands and Stifles are a lot more detrimental at 18-19 land. Also I have a very love-hate relationship with Stifle... as has been discussed a good bit, when it is good it is really good, but when it is bad it is pretty bad.

Against my Sneak and Show opponent, in game one I survived the Sneak Attacking Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, while sandbagging a Sea and a Ponder. I had put on some solid pressure with a double Delver opener. After the Emrakul attack, I had four cards, no permanents, and 3 life to my opponents Sneak, four lands, no cards, and 2 life. I played the Sea, Pondered and found a second land. This let me play the Sylvan Library the following turn. I got to stack one time not finding any creatures or cantrips before he natural drew a Griselbrand to finish me off. So had he bricked another turn or two we might have gotten there. In game two I had, fetch into Tropical (had a Sea in hand and needed to be able to Daze) into Deathrite. He had Ancient Tomb, Lotus Petal x2 for a Blood Moon. No counter magic... just the second Petal. So his hand lined up perfectly with what I had kept. This turned off the Abrupt Decay and Dimir Charm that I had in the opener. So on the next turn I made a Delver and began attacking. He bricked off a bit but eventually got there. Had my hand had a Force of Will or his hand not had the second Petal we probably would have won that one. Sometimes that is how it goes though.

Sidenote: I playtested the Burn match up with my brother a bit over the weekend. We played eight games. I won five and lost three. That with my record the past few weeks would put me at 9-4 in games against Burn. I know it is a tough match up but it is certainly a match we should be able to win. As always thanks for reading!

[Dragonslayer_90]

So I did pretty bad at Somerset over the Weekend. I think it was mostly me rather than the deck tbh. I hadn't gotten enough sleep the night before and was on autopilot or could not see lines very clearly most of the time to drop at 2-3. My head was just not in it that weekend. Maybe next time. Going to take a break from the deck for a little while to try out other deck. I think my brain needs a break from delvering in general. That's why I ended up playing ANT at my locals yesterday. Also just wanted to say congrats to iostream for your Top 32. Was nice meeting you over the weekend. Hope to see you again in the future

Anyways, I want to weigh in on the Stifle discussion. I think that the stifle lists have there merits and demerits as the tapout ones do. I do not think one is strictly better than the other. It really depends on the type of meta you are playing in and your playstyle. For instance there is a good amount of tribal in my local meta, specically two merfolk players and one goblins player. Stifle can be good in the Goblins matcup but is absolutely terrible in the Mefolk matchup. At least Sturtzilla and I agree that Hymn is generally better than Stifle in our local meta across the board. However, I think playing a more draw-go list with stifle might be better in the general meta we have at the moment since Miracles and Shardless BUG are seeing more and more play. I do not think that these matchups are extremely bad when playing the tapout hymn versions but Stifle does give us more tools to fight the ways these decks try to go over the top of BUG Delver. I think this style of BUG Delver warrants some more testing as others have said. Specifically, I don't think the lists that are being played at the moment are as tuned as they should be. For example I talked to Jim Davis about CroSS.24's list and he said he doesn't like True-Name Nemesis since all it did was die all the time. He basically said he didn't like investing three mana for a creature that is supposedly hard to kill. But really everyone is prepared for the stupid merfolk rogue at this point. I'm also skeptical of playing 18 lands with some three drops even if we have Deathrite Shaman. Furthermore, I am not sure how I feel about Dark Confidant. He helps a lot in the grindy matchups but the problem is he is generally pretty board impotent and dies to every removal spell played being a fragile 2/1. Other than that I will leave you other BUG Delver players to explore this this other version of BUG Delver if you are so inclined. I, on the other hand, am going to take a break from playing Blue Wild Nacatl.

[Sturtzilla]

For example I talked to Jim Davis about CroSS.24's list and he said he doesn't like True-Name Nemesis since all it did was die all the time. He basically said he didn't like investing three mana for a creature that is supposedly hard to kill. But really everyone is prepared for the stupid merfolk rogue at this point. I'm also skeptical of playing 18 lands with some three drops even if we have Deathrite Shaman.

I am in agreement about True-Name Nemesis. I dislike this card on two levels. The first is purely from the standpoint of playing fun, interactive magic. I am not going to make the argument that TNN disallows interaction, it just hampers the manners in which opponents can interact. Furthermore from having played both with an against it, I am of the opinion that the card is no fun. When I play it... I always find myself thinking, "That was a shitty game. My opponent couldn't do anything and got 3ed over and over until he/she died." Playing against it is the same scenario but worse as you probably lose and wish you drew a sideboard card to deal with it.

From a logistical standpoint, can be difficult to get to in a lot of games, especially in the fair match ups wherein you often have to fight over mana (theoretically this is when TNN is supposed to shine). Maybe in a 20 land list it is fine but I never really liked it in Wiley's configuration. There probably is a shell out there for it, I just am not sure what it is.

I, on the other hand, am going to take a break from playing Blue Wild Nacatl.

No longer BUG brothers... .

[Dragonslayer_90]

No longer BUG brothers... .

Oh come on man. I'll probably play a blue deathrite shaman deck again at some point. The shell is too good not to. BUG Brothers forevaaah