[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

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I'm not saying that you shouldn't play it because it can be boarded against. I'm saying playing it alongside options in our decks that share the same weakness just makes our deck even more susceptible to their post board hate, namely RiP. The intention of running this card would be to dig for answers correct? Well we can't do that efficiently against a RiP USING TC so is that really the card you want to run in games 2 or 3?

That's not the intention. Here's an analogy with Shardless: you have to jump through some hoops to cast Visions the same way you have to jump through some hoops to cast Treasure Cruise. Obviously if you're in a tight spot, you would prefer to have Ponder or Brainstorm or Predict or whatever than a naked Visions in your hand. The reason why you play Visions is because it allows you to refill your hand with gas and apply pressure just by dint of the card advantage it produces. Same thing with Treasure Cruise. I'm not trying to cast Treasure Cruise through RiP to look for Golgari Charms - I'm digging for Golgari Charms so that I can bury my opponent with the card advantage from Cruise.

The reason why this is an effect you want in a tempo deck is because you get to play much more mana-efficiently than control decks (like Shardless) and so you can convert your extra cards into an actual on-board advantage very easily. Think about it this way: there used to be a real trade-off between this mana efficiency and the raw power of cards like Ancestral Visions that made Shardless versus BUG Delver a real question. With Treasure Cruise, this trade-off may no longer exist. Delver decks might get to have their cake and eat it too. We don't run 2/2's for 3 or 1/1's for 2. We don't have to cut Wastelands to facilitate our late-game trumps. All of our cards hit harder and earlier, and our early game disruption is far more potent. Now we will also get the raw card advantage that used to be Shardless's unique feature.

Honestly, the argument might extend to all blue decks - many other decks might deform their game plan to support Cruise. Think about Vintage - decks that can play Ancestral Recall do it if they can. The effect is really that strong.

I keep seeing the argument in this thread with people who are saying it's okay to run this along with tarmogoyf feed out like this:

"It's okay that I delve 7 and turn my 5/6 goyf into a 2/3, because I draw 3 cards for one and then I use mana I still have open to cast 2 or three of those spells to make him a 5/6 again."

My question is if that is the argument then what is the entire point of drawing those cards. It's complete poop for your tempo and while it's true BUG can hit the mid game a little better than the rest of the delver decks, it's mid game becomes decreasingly potent when it's primary mid game beater is being neutered by your own deck's tactics.

First, my experience has been that if you TC after combat, you get to refill the grave adequately before your next combat. So typically you're not missing out on very much damage, if any. Second, the cards we are drawing do not have blank text boxes. They are useful for things besides feeding Goyf. Maybe you draw a card that allows you to clear your opponent's Goyf out of the way. Maybe you draw a crucial piece of combo protection that buys you the one last turn you need to deliver the killing blow with Goyf. And so on.

I'm just trying to see the logic in playing this card in BUG Delver, I know it has amazing applications in about a handful of other legacy decks but I don't see it here to be honest without making changes to the deck. Most notably I'd at the very least switch out the goyfs for TNNs, MINIMUM. If you're gonna go into the mid-game more and you want the gas to do it, what's 1 more turn for a beater who isn't affected by the graveyard and who is more difficult to remove? I'd also increase to 1-2 tar pits.

There's a reason that the decks which seems to be making best use of TC are the ones with the lowest curve and fastest threats - it's because you need to dump cards quickly to make it castable in a reasonable timeframe. Delver decks already do this well, but we think that we can do it better, and that it would be worth sacrificing something to lower the curve because drawing 3 cards is so powerful. Raising the curve is the last thing I would want to do if I wanted to maximize TC's potential.

Also comparing the sideboard hate against the 2 decks doesn't make sense, since Pyroclasm doesn't affect how Treasure Cruise interacts with their sideboard plan at all, that's the entire point I was making.

You are totally correct on this point, I was wrong. I will say, however, that my personal experience has been that the hate is not too hard to play through, though. RiP is of course the main offender, and it can definitely be powerful, but it's not unbeatable. After that, though, what is commonly played? Grafdigger's Cage is definitely #2, and it does nothing against TC. One-shot effects like Tormod's Crypt are both rarely seen and ineffective given how fast we fill the graveyard anyway. Surgical Extraction is somewhat better, especially if it strips the TC, but who is running that against us?

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings All!

Played another week of legacy locals with Dragonslayer_90 and btm10 last night. I ended up 3-0-1 splitting up 1st and 2nd place prize with another 3-0 in the last round. In an effort to determine if our new arrival Treasure Cruise is the real deal in this deck, I ran three. My opponents were Ian playing Merfolk (2-1), Dragonslayer_90 playing UWR Miracles (2-0), Adam playing Walking Dead (2-0), and Nick with Sneak and Show (0-0-3; 2-3). Nick and I agreed to split and then played five games. I think I kept two hands that were a bit loose. Testing was the goal here; Sneak and Show is one match up where I feel I would like more testing. Anyway here is my list that I ran last night.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Force of Will
3 Treasure Cruise
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disfigure
1 Sylvan Library
2 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Zur's Weirding
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

I felt the list ran well enough. My initial impression of Treasure Cruise is that we likely want to be somewhere in the 2-3 range. Every time I cast the card, it warranted a Force of Will or allowed me to reload my hand for additional board presence or disruption. Additionally I found myself once or twice playing it for 3 mana and delve 5, drawing my 3 cards, playing a land and then getting to make a Deathrite or Delver. I think when you get to pay or it is awesome, but at it is still pretty decent. People seem to be really concerned about the interaction with Tarmogoyf. I lost 1 point of damage over the course of the night by due to delving. If you are careful about tracking your opponent's graveyard it seems to be a non-issue. The card is a real contender for slots in this deck. I did have one draw three that hit another copy of Cruise. That was a bit awkward. However, it just meant I got to play out the other cards before drawing another three two turns later. So I think four Cruises is probably going to be getting a bit clunky, but if you stick in the 2-3 range you are probably fine. I am probably going to run the list as is once or twice more. More testing is needed but I did miss the Dimir Charm... so I may make room for it going forward. As for the sideboard, the more I play the deck, the less impressed I am with Toxic Deluge. The match ups that you bring it in you are trying to wipe an entire board of creatures... so Elves, Goblins, and Merfolk are what comes to mind for me. Anyway these decks can be very aggressive and the cost of 2-4 life as part of the cost of the spell has made it uncastable for me on a number of occasions. Again this probably needs more testing, but I am very close to changing it to a Maelstrom Pulse or a Sultai Charm for future testing. Anyway thanks for reading!

[T-101]

Greetings All!

Played another week of legacy locals with Dragonslayer_90 and btm10 last night. I ended up 3-0-1 splitting up 1st and 2nd place prize with another 3-0 in the last round. In an effort to determine if our new arrival Treasure Cruise is the real deal in this deck, I ran three. My opponents were Ian playing Merfolk (2-1), Dragonslayer_90 playing UWR Miracles (2-0), Adam playing Walking Dead (2-0), and Nick with Sneak and Show (0-0-3; 2-3). Nick and I agreed to split and then played five games. I think I kept two hands that were a bit loose. Testing was the goal here; Sneak and Show is one match up where I feel I would like more testing. Anyway here is my list that I ran last night.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Force of Will
3 Treasure Cruise
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disfigure
1 Sylvan Library
2 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Zur's Weirding
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

I felt the list ran well enough. My initial impression of Treasure Cruise is that we likely want to be somewhere in the 2-3 range. Every time I cast the card, it warranted a Force of Will or allowed me to reload my hand for additional board presence or disruption. Additionally I found myself once or twice playing it for 3 mana and delve 5, drawing my 3 cards, playing a land and then getting to make a Deathrite or Delver. I think when you get to pay or it is awesome, but at it is still pretty decent. People seem to be really concerned about the interaction with Tarmogoyf. I lost 1 point of damage over the course of the night by due to delving. If you are careful about tracking your opponent's graveyard it seems to be a non-issue. The card is a real contender for slots in this deck. I did have one draw three that hit another copy of Cruise. That was a bit awkward. However, it just meant I got to play out the other cards before drawing another three two turns later. So I think four Cruises is probably going to be getting a bit clunky, but if you stick in the 2-3 range you are probably fine. I am probably going to run the list as is once or twice more. More testing is needed but I did miss the Dimir Charm... so I may make room for it going forward. As for the sideboard, the more I play the deck, the less impressed I am with Toxic Deluge. The match ups that you bring it in you are trying to wipe an entire board of creatures... so Elves, Goblins, and Merfolk are what comes to mind for me. Anyway these decks can be very aggressive and the cost of 2-4 life as part of the cost of the spell has made it uncastable for me on a number of occasions. Again this probably needs more testing, but I am very close to changing it to a Maelstrom Pulse or a Sultai Charm for future testing. Anyway thanks for reading!

Well done. I did not start as a believe in TC, but I suppose I'll throw 3 in the deck and see how it does over the course of the rest of the week and weekend. I'll start with 3, and see how I like it.

Also, you get bonus points for running Zur's Weirding in Legacy. One of those cards I adore, but never find the space for when it comes time to submit decklists :(

[Sturtzilla]

Well done. I did not start as a believe in TC, but I suppose I'll throw 3 in the deck and see how it does over the course of the rest of the week and weekend. I'll start with 3, and see how I like it.

Thanks! It might make mulliganning decisions a bit tougher as well. It is a card that you can't really bank on casting until at earliest turn 3, but more often it will be turn 4 or 5 and it will be the last card in your hand. I think 3 is a good starting point. It will show up enough that you can get a good feeling for the card. I think more rigorous testing will determine if we go to 4 and tweak the deck a bit or if we stick with 2-3. You want to be able to draw three cards but you do want to draw cards that do attack, block, kill threats, make opponents discard or counter their spells. So in my mind the question is how do we hone the list down so we are consistent in being able to cast TC and that TC hits relevant cards.

Also, you get bonus points for running Zur's Weirding in Legacy. One of those cards I adore, but never find the space for when it comes time to submit decklists :(

The card is a house. If resolved, it basically makes it impossible for Miracles and 12Post to win. It is also pretty reasonable against a swath of the non-Burn combo decks. It is great; give it a try!

[YamiJoey]

Treasure Cruise seems to punish mulligans really heavily. (Guess whay my testing session consisted of...)

[wcm8]

Treasure Cruise seems to punish mulligans really heavily. (Guess whay my testing session consisted of...)

It's not much different than opening with a Jace, TMS in that it's a card that is pretty much dead in your opener but ends up paying off/winning the game around turn 4 if it resolves. Granted, tempo decks want to be playing efficient cards, but running 3 TC is a calculated risk. The tradeoff seems well worth it.

[iostream]

Running 3 TC and 2 Liliana is kind of a lot of Jace-type lategame cards for the deck to be running - traditionally it was just 2 Liliana and 0-2 3cmc creatures (counting Tombstalker in this category). I wonder if we want to cut the Lili's or move them to the side. for something cheaper.

On a related note, Gerry Thompson wrote an article about Cruise today discussing how it fits into BUG. Among the ideas he thinks are reasonable to consider are: tilting the maindeck to be better versus RiP Miracles (which he suggests as a natural foil to Cruise decks), replacing Hymn with Thoughtseize (since it's easier to come back from Hymn in a Cruise-filled format), and playing Spell Snare over Spell Pierce.

[YamiJoey]

It's not much different than opening with a Jace, TMS in that it's a card that is pretty much dead in your opener but ends up paying off/winning the game around turn 4 if it resolves. Granted, tempo decks want to be playing efficient cards, but running 3 TC is a calculated risk. The tradeoff seems well worth it.

I have literally never tries to play Mind Sculptor in this deck. And Jace costs 4-mana, whereas Cruise just requires cards as an input. On 7 cards you can miss land drops, but casting Ponders, and Dazes, and other cool stuff will get you an Ancestral Recall eventually. You want to just have a lot of cards, not necessarily specific ones.

[wcm8]

I have literally never tries to play Mind Sculptor in this deck. And Jace costs 4-mana, whereas Cruise just requires cards as an input. On 7 cards you can miss land drops, but casting Ponders, and Dazes, and other cool stuff will get you an Ancestral Recall eventually. You want to just have a lot of cards, not necessarily specific ones.

Before this conversation gets derailed any further, note that I was NOT suggesting playing Jace TMS in this deck*, merely making the comparison of having Treasure Cruise in the opening hand. In decks that *do* run Jace, e.g. Esper Control, opening with a Jace is almost like a mulligan, but that doesn't mean the deck wants to drop Jace just because of the possibility of a copy in the opening hand. Hence, for TA and other decks that can play Treasure Cruise, I see a parallel here -- sure, it sucks to open with one, but the card is so good otherwise that the opening hand argument is a weak one for cutting the card.


*though to be fair, a singleton in the maindeck or 1-2 in the SB is actually a perfectly reasonable choice, as Jace is great against Control and Midrange.

[btm10]

Before this conversation gets derailed any further, note that I was NOT suggesting playing Jace TMS in this deck*, merely making the comparison of having Treasure Cruise in the opening hand. In decks that *do* run Jace, e.g. Esper Control, opening with a Jace is almost like a mulligan, but that doesn't mean the deck wants to drop Jace just because of the possibility of a copy in the opening hand. Hence, for TA and other decks that can play Treasure Cruise, I see a parallel here -- sure, it sucks to open with one, but the card is so good otherwise that the opening hand argument is a weak one for cutting the card.


*though to be fair, a singleton in the maindeck or 1-2 in the SB is actually a perfectly reasonable choice, as Jace is great against Control and Midrange.

I basically agree with this sentiment. I only played 2 copies of Cruise at my local this week, but I was very happy with it. I shrank a Goyf (to a 3/4 from a 4/5) once postcombat, but it was a 4/5 again by my next combat step. I also tested Negate over Spell Pierce and was extremely happy with it. I'll write a lengthier explanation when I have time.

[FoolofaTook]

There's some amazing tech that TC and DTT will enable in Legacy at this point. I'm not as down on Goyf as I was yesterday. There are some real synergies that can be created by making Goyf the every power critter. He's the only creature that I can think of at this point that can easily float between 2 and 5 power.

I think the Delve cards were aimed at him to some degree but as usual R&D forgot some important things.

[Dragonslayer_90]

There's some amazing tech that TC and DTT will enable in Legacy at this point. I'm not as down on Goyf as I was yesterday. There are some real synergies that can be created by making Goyf the every power critter. He's the only creature that I can think of at this point that can easily float between 2 and 5 power.

I think the Delve cards were aimed at him to some degree but as usual R&D forgot some important things.

Good to know. The fact that you've changed your mind on Goyf makes me a less uneasy about him going forward as well in Team America since you claimed to have been conducting testing. When Treasure Cruise started making waves too many people dismissed the card on theory craft alone and at some point I get sick of it because most people on this forum should be capable of doing their own testing to figure that the card is bonkers. Anyways, are you willing to be more specific on why you now think Goyf will not decline but still be an all star in legacy? I always like to hear about R&D missing the mark when trying to nerf something.

[FoolofaTook]

Good to know. The fact that you've changed your mind on Goyf makes me a less uneasy about him going forward as well in Team America since you claimed to have been conducting testing. When Treasure Cruise started making waves too many people dismissed the card on theory craft alone and at some point I get sick of it because most people on this forum should be capable of doing their own testing to figure that the card is bonkers. Anyways, are you willing to be more specific on why you now think Goyf will not decline but still be an all star in legacy? I always like to hear about R&D missing the mark when trying to nerf something.

Treasure Cruise is going to be a bomb in a few lists, a good card that decreases predictability in others and a maybe yes/maybe no card in a bunch of others. That's a separate argument which I am all argued out on and I'm willing to let the meta we play in settle the issue.

Tarmogoyf however has gained a new ability in a list playing Delve and DRS. He's now the customizable creature who can have 2 power when you need him to and grow up to 5 power really easily if you decide that's best.

There are so many cards that interact with creature power at this point that don't get played much and almost never in creature lists because there isn't a defined set of creatures that can best take advantage of them. Generally this is because they specify a power at which they interact well or there is a variable in them that defines which creatures will work best with them. Well, Tarmogoyf now slides in as a factor with those cards because you can add him to the best creatures that worked with that card before and he becomes a variable creature that works well with the card in question and can also become big if the combo is not out, giving you a backup plan.

3 is a big number in the power sweepstakes. Insectile Aberration has 3 power. Vendilion Clique has 3 power. True-Name Nemesis has 3 power. Creeping Tarpit has 3 power. A 1/2 creature carrying a Sword has 3 power. Now Tarmogoyf can pretty easily have 3 power if you need him to have that. There are a lot of 2 power creatures in the meta. Tarmogoyf can slot in beside those creatures as well with a little bit of work.

I think Umezawa's Jitte will also profit from the changes in the meta. It's already a very strong card but situational. Now it has some combo possibilities as well.

[GtF]

Treasure Cruise is going to be a bomb in a few lists, a good card that decreases predictability in others and a maybe yes/maybe no card in a bunch of others. That's a separate argument which I am all argued out on and I'm willing to let the meta we play in settle the issue.

Tarmogoyf however has gained a new ability in a list playing Delve and DRS. He's now the customizable creature who can have 2 power when you need him to and grow up to 5 power really easily if you decide that's best.

There are so many cards that interact with creature power at this point that don't get played much and almost never in creature lists because there isn't a defined set of creatures that can best take advantage of them. Generally this is because they specify a power at which they interact well or there is a variable in them that defines which creatures will work best with them. Well, Tarmogoyf now slides in as a factor with those cards because you can add him to the best creatures that worked with that card before and he becomes a variable creature that works well with the card in question and can also become big if the combo is not out, giving you a backup plan.

3 is a big number in the power sweepstakes. Insectile Aberration has 3 power. Vendilion Clique has 3 power. True-Name Nemesis has 3 power. Creeping Tarpit has 3 power. A 1/2 creature carrying a Sword has 3 power. Now Tarmogoyf can pretty easily have 3 power if you need him to have that. There are a lot of 2 power creatures in the meta. Tarmogoyf can slot in beside those creatures as well with a little bit of work.

I think Umezawa's Jitte will also profit from the changes in the meta. It's already a very strong card but situational. Now it has some combo possibilities as well.

I'm very curious exactly what are the cards that you are talking about that benefit from a creature with variable power that you think are playable in legacy? The only one I can think of that sees some amount of play is Meekstone, but playing it with Goyf in your deck still seems poor, even if you can theoretically shrink Goyf to be able to untap one turn. It doesn't work well with those other 3 power creatures listed (well it's nice at shutting down the opponents of course)

[dog_koko]

Ensnaring Bridge

[FoolofaTook]

Ensnaring Bridge

Gold star.

The ability to go from hellbent to 3 cards in hand off of one draw is kind of profound when you think of the number of 3 power creatures that blue has available right now that are already played as staples. The problem is that you'd rather not put all your eggs in that basket. Goyf fits as Plan B who can now be customized to fit into the combo as well.

Jitte lets 1 and 2 power creatures attack and then become larger after the fact. The sequencing will take time to work out but I think it's going to be a classic two-step with your evasive attackers getting to attack on your turn and your opponent's creatures standing around on theirs.

The break is that Ensnaring Bridge is supposed to be a device for non-creatureless lists and now it is very usable in lists with high advantage moderate power creatures that are also using TC and DTT and we'll likely see Land Tax come back in some lists since it won't be the only show in town in terms of getting from hellbent to 3 in a hurry.

Draw 3 is bad. Card advantage at instant speed is bad. R&D forgot these things for just a moment and now we're going to have a lot of fun with that.

[CorpT]

I don't think you're playing the same deck as me if you want to play Ensnaring Bridge. Or even care about Ensnaring Bridge.

[FoolofaTook]

I don't think you're playing the same deck as me if you want to play Ensnaring Bridge. Or even care about Ensnaring Bridge.

All lists evolve over time. There are a lot of different variants of most of them also. The things that make lists evolve is that better power plays become available in the archetype they're in. Sometimes real power cards become weaker. Hymn to Tourach as an example has been weakened by the advent of the new blue card advantage. Recovering from a Hymn early is now much easier than it was before Treasure Cruise was printed. Going to find a card that you want to put in the GY at instant speed has become a lot easier.

The current TA has already evolved multiple times in the course of it's existence, removing staples like Tombstalker, Snuff Out and Sinkhole and replacing them with much easier cards to play like DRS, Delver and Abrupt Decay. Liliana of the Veil almost changed the archetype when she showed up on the scene. The list was hellbent aggro and disruption when it first emerged and has evolved to fit somewhere between aggro-control and mid-range at this point. Adding Bridges would just take it a little bit further over to the control end of the spectrum while still preserving the ability to aggro early with a Delver or Goyf that went unanswered.

I do agree that it is possible that the Ensnaring Bridges option might spawn a new list in BUG Control instead, however it doesn't have to do that. Delver of Secrets is still one of the two best creatures in BUG at this point, alongside DRS, and you aren't forced to give it up as most BUG Control lists have done. Having a permanent source of creature control that interacts well with it and with the card advantage newly available to us may well make a synthesis list possible.

WotC never planned for Ensnaring Bridge to be used in a list with aggressive 3 power creatures. It was for weenie lists and creatureless primarily. Now there is a new reality created by mad draw 3 and instant speed card advantage. It'll be interesting to see where that takes us.

I haven't posted the list I'm testing at the moment because it is a hybrid of Delver and Control that tries to fit the new synergies to the best cards in the archetype.

[wcm8]

Ensnaring Bridge is a control card. Sure, it stops Griselbrand and Emrakul, but it doesn't really belong in an aggressive deck which intends on casting Tarmogoyf or even attacking with Delver. BUG particularly goes hellbent pretty frequently with its tapout style and Liliana. Seems like it would interfere with your own strategy more than actually hurting an opponent. It's not even that great against a lot of aggro decks, since UR for example has Pyromancer and can pump Swiftspear with Instants after attacks have been declared.

I think the deck you are looking to play E. Bridge in is some form of Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek, possibly with UB Tezzeret.

I actually have no idea what the hell you are talking about to be honest. Modulating the power/toughness of Goyf is pretty irrelevant in my honest opinion.

[Sturtzilla]

I also don't see much utility in the ability to modulate Tarmogoyf's power and toughness. The only things I can think of are Meekstone, Ensnaring Bridge, and Abzan Charm. Abrupt Decay handles two of these cards. To play around the Charm you would need to be able to Dig Through Time in response and shrink your Goyf's power. This seems very corner case... there isn't really an Abzan/Junk deck to play this Charm anyway. So I don't see much utility outside of the above mentioned artifacts, which can get countered, forced to be discarded, or Decayed.