[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[theMonster]

Hi, y'all! I'm interested in playing BUG Delver, but, currently, I don't own Tarmogoyfs (but have everything else). Are there any (viable, competitive, non-budget) lists that allow for this? I'd assume you'd have to be on either a skewed black Tombstalker/Hymn to Tourach or skewed blue True-Name Nemesis/Snapcaster Mage plan, with perhaps a Scavenging Ooze in there. I've seen, say, RUG lists with Stifle that play 0-1 Goyfs, so I wondered if a BUG list could possibly accomplish this, too. If not, I'll probably look to slam Jace in BUG Control.

Thanks for accommodating a stupid question!

[H]

There really isn't anything that can just replace Goyf, there is a reason he is worth as much as he is, at least not in Green. Black had the Delve creatures, Angler, Tombstalker, and Tasigur. If you want to stay BUG, I would probably experiment with some combination of those, with maybe a True-Name Nemesis. This is really going to make your average CMC high, so 20 lands is a must and I don't think you can then run more than one Liliana maximum. It's certainly not optimal at all, but it could probably work.

The other option I see would be to run 4c Delver and substitute Young Pyromancer for Goyf.

[btm10]

I think BUG Control with TNN is stronger than Delver without Goyfs. If you wanted to get a little silly and don't see too many Bolts, Quirion Dryad is workable early but is a terrible topdeck.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

There has been unarguable success in SCG events with BUG Delver builds having 3-4 TNN and 0-1 Vendilion Clique, and 0 Tarmogoyf. That said, your clock is worse, and its difficult to play Hymn with True-name Nemesis successfully. I think Angler and TNN is a good combination, allowing TNN to be your wall. If you find a way to make the mana-base work well enough, Tombstalker may even be better than Angler, or even a 1/1 split. I'm of the opinion that Tasigur is absolutely worse than both of the others. Its possible that dropping the 3rd Trop for a 4th Sea would be a way to play both TNN and the Tombstalker/Hymn in the same list successfully, or even a Bayou, although that seems suspect.

EDIT: deck like this could look something like:

Creatures: 14
4 DRS
4 Delver
3 TNN
1 Clique/4th TNN
1 Angler
1 Tombstalker/2nd Angler

Spells: 28
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Daze/-1 Daze, +1 Liliana
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure

Land: 18
4 Delta
2 Rainforest
2 Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Sea
2 Trop



From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[theMonster]

There has been unarguable success in SCG events with BUG Delver builds having 3-4 TNN and 0-1 Vendilion Clique, and 0 Tarmogoyf. That said, your clock is worse, and its difficult to play Hymn with True-name Nemesis successfully. I think Angler and TNN is a good combination, allowing TNN to be your wall. If you find a way to make the mana-base work well enough, Tombstalker may even be better than Angler, or even a 1/1 split. I'm of the opinion that Tasigur is absolutely worse than both of the others. Its possible that dropping the 3rd Trop for a 4th Sea would be a way to play both TNN and the Tombstalker/Hymn in the same list successfully, or even a Bayou, although that seems suspect.

EDIT: deck like this could look something like:

Creatures: 14
4 DRS
4 Delver
3 TNN
1 Clique/4th TNN
1 Angler
1 Tombstalker/2nd Angler

Spells: 28
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Daze/-1 Daze, +1 Liliana
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure

Land: 18
4 Delta
2 Rainforest
2 Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Sea
2 Trop



From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

Thanks for the feedback, guys. This is actually a pretty similar list to what I was considering. Without the clock Tarmogoyf presents, attacking their mana with Stifles on fetchlands and Wasteland seems like a solid plan. I think running True-Name Nemesis main and Hymn to Tourachs in the sideboard might be strong. TNN ain't great against combo anyways, so a direct swap seems decent.

Here's what I was thinking about (sideboard for my meta, consisting of lots of MUD and Miracles, some DnT):

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Tombstalker

1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

--- sideboard ---

1 Pithing Needle
2 Dread of Night
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Null Rod
1 Winter Orb
1 Sylvan Library
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Perish
1 Maelstrom Pulse

A part of me wonders if I should play 19 lands with all the 3-drops. And TNN alongside Liliana of the Veil might prove too tough in testing, but I like her -2 for my meta of big, stupid guys from MUD and NicFit (hence the Dismember). I should probably find room for Disfigures in the 75, though.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

[H]

A part of me wonders if I should play 19 lands with all the 3-drops. And TNN alongside Liliana of the Veil might prove too tough in testing, but I like her -2 for my meta of big, stupid guys from MUD and NicFit (hence the Dismember). I should probably find room for Disfigures in the 75, though.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

19 Lands is definitely the minimum I think you can get away with here. Also, the lack of Bayou makes me not really like Liliana. I would cut her for another land. Having to fetch double Black will have you in a bad spot to cast Abrupt Decay, even though you really don't have many Green spells, that one is really important.

[downtoonelife]

Played 5 rounds yesterday. Been a combo player for a long time (traded my Animator and OmniTell pieces for a set of Goyf, a Bayou and a Misty Rainforest) so this was a new role for me. My deck still isn't complete, borrowed Clique and TNN from a teammate.

R1 vs Zoo 2-1
G1: I have more creatures than him on the board.
G2: My board was just 3 Deathrite and an unflip delver (it never flip for maybe 3 turns til I died).
G3: He got stuck with 1 land and had 2 flip delvers and a goyf for the win.

R2 vs Mentor Miracles 2-1
G1: Early delver and Hymn's help me win the match.
G2: He was able to control the game and win with 2 angel tokens.
G3: Hymn again help me control the match and a timely Clique on his Entreat miracle sealed the win.

R3 vs Sneak Show 1-2
G1: Controlled the match early on with counters but he eventually saw a show and tell after he preordain and then drop a Griselbrand after.
G2: Somehow I was able to kill him with a delver and deathrite shaman while he is assembling his combo.
G3: He won via Show and Tell into Griselbrand then Through the Breach an Emrakul afterwards.

R4 vs Affinity 2-0
G1: Controlled the match with removals.
G2: Slowly recovered after being down to 8 - killed all his creatures then a single 6/7 tarmogofy win the game.

R5 vs Elves ID

QF vs Sneak Show (same player I fought on the 3rd round) 2-0
G1: I was able to counter his turn 1 Show and Tell. Then slowly grind to win.
G2: I got annihilated by Emrakul with me down to 2 after and no permanents. I got lucky that he have to assemble his combo again while I'm slowly building back my resources. He was able to drop an Omniscience later on but blank on his Brainstorm. And my Tarmogoyf and Delver was enough to finish him after.

SF vs MUD 2-1
G1: Got lucky despite him drawing 2 cards every upkeep from Coercive Portal there was no threat that he played. TNN, Delver and a Shaman win me the game.
G2: I got locked by Smokestack and he has big creatures in play.
G3: The game went long - his Wurmcoil was being meet by my TNN. I eventually got Liliana into her ultimate and cleared 3 of his lands, Metalworker and Grim Monolith. He left 2 lands and the Wurmcoil. I have a Null Rod in play, I think that's why he sac the former. Delver finish the game.

Finals vs Junk Depths 2-1
G1: He got flooded and then my Deathrite and Delver finish him
G2: I kept a 1 land hand (Sea) with two ponders, a hymn, LotV, Clique and a Krosan Grip. I'm not sure if it's a valid keep or not but maybe I got greedy and I was hoping to get another land from the 2 ponders. However, got unlucky and no lands showed after the first ponder and then he wasteland my Underground Sea after. Mana screwed after and his Marit Lage killed me.
G3: Had to mull to 6. He controlled me with 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Inquisition early in the game. My turn 1 delver never flip in 3 turns until it got sword. He killed my Tarmogoyf and Deathrite also. I was able to hide his Knight of the Reliquary with my Clique but he drew another one and it summon Marit Lage afterwards and I lost.

I still have a lot to learn playing this deck and me being the tempo player now. But I was still happy with my tournament result. This is my list:

3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacomb
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secret
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True Name Nemesis
3 Disfigure
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Sb:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Extirpate
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
3 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle

[H]

Congrats on the strong results. From what I can see though, I think you were somewhat lucky to not face many Wastelands because, from what we have collectively found, is that the Hymn version is more mana hungry, so 18 lands simply is not enough. Since you don't run too many 3 drops, 19 is probably reasonable, as long as your meta doesn't have too many Wastelands. For me, I run 20 lands, then board one (or sometimes two) out if I know my opponent doesn't have Wastelands.

[downtoonelife]

Thank you H. Yes, I've just realized that most of my match last Sunday don't have Wasteland. My teammates also suggested to at least make my land count to 19. I'm going to cut the 3rd Disfigure main and move it to the sideboard and change it to the 19th land. Thank you again for the advice.

[btm10]

Congrats again on your first outing with the deck,, downtoonelife. I'm going to sort of build on what H said for a minute here - you mentioned that this is your first tempo deck, so what I'm about to say might seem odd. The Hymn/Liliana build isn't a "real" tempo deck - it's an aggressive midrange deck with an incidental tempo plan. You'll hear/see a lot of people complain about how BUG Delver is a worse deck than RUG Delver because it's worse at the tempo plan. Those people are missing the point. You always want a third non-Wasteland land by turn 4 or 5 so you can cast Liliana or cantrip into Decay. You're almost never the beatdown against other Delver decks, but you're also the one with inevitability in a lot of matchups. Rich Shay even MD'ed Jace, the Mind Sculptor at one point and top 8'ed an SCG Open. Basically, you have to re-ask "Who's the Beatdown" very often, because it changes a lot, and then tune the deck to beat an expected metagame.

[downtoonelife]

Thank you and I stand corrected btm10. I assumed that the deck is tempo. Yes this is the first time that I'm playing this kind of deck. I was playing ANT before Mystical Tutor got banned. After that I moved to Show and Tell decks then Re-animator. There are still a lot of decks that I want to test play with and I'll keep in mind your advice.

[and3h]

i'm going to be shifting over from UR Delver to BUG delver because i miss playing the midrange end of the delver spectrum. i've got a tournament coming up at the start of January that i'm starting to test for (having a young family and not much of a legacy scene makes testing a little more difficult here, hence starting this early), and i was thinking of starting my testing with this deck:

Creatures
4 x Delver of Secrets
4 x Tarmogoyf
4 x Deathrite Shaman
2 x Dark Confidant

Non Creature Spells
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Ponder
3 x Hymn to Tourach
3 x Force of Will
4 x Daze
2 x Thoughtseize
4 x Abrupt Decay
1 x Liliana of the Veil
1 x Murderous Cut

Lands
4 x Wasteland
4 x Polluted Delta
3 x Verdant Catacomb
2 x Misty Rainforest
4 x Underground Sea
2 x Tropical Island
1 x Bayou

Sideboard
2 x Pithing Needle
1 x Grafdigger's Cage
3 x Disfigure
2 x Golgari Charm
1 x Flusterstorm
1 x Spell Pierce
1 x Force of Will
1 x Thoughtseize
1 x Vendilion Clique
1 x Sylvan Library
1 x Hymn to Tourach

firstly, i'm not sure if i should be going for the 2nd Tropical Island or the 2nd Bayou. the more i think about how the deck is constructed it probably should be the bayou to make BB for Hymn and Liliana easier to cast. it also helps with casting turn 1 deathrite, but obviously makes it harder to go turn 1 delver.

secondly, if i have the option of both deathrite and delver in my opening hand, am i right in thinking i should normally be playing the deathrite first? so that i can accelerate into turn 2 Liliana, or hymn + delver etc.

thirdly, i have an idea on what the meta is going to be (miracles, elves, various combo like food chain, reanimator etc, merfolk, deathblade, sneak & show, infect, goblins) but im not sure i've got my sideboard quite right. i'm thinking maybe adding in another flusterstorm and maybe a hydroblast (probably not worth it) but i'm unsure what to take out.

any help would be much appreciated

cheers

[and3h]

also, murderous cut. should that just be Liliana of the Veil number 2?

[btm10]

I've been going back and forth on the second MD Liliana and I'm not sure there's a right answer. I also think - and this is sort of heresy here - that exact duals you play aren't as important as they're made out to be after you've reached 3 Sea/1 Trop/1 Bayou. You want seven total if you're on the midrangey Hymn/Liliana list, but I don't think there's a hard and fast rule once you've got the Bayou. I'm currently running 3/2/2, but I've run 4/2/1 and 4/1/2 (Sea/Trop/Bayou) as well.

The only real criticism I have on the list is that the fourth Force should be MD (maybe over a land), which opens up a slot in the board. There's always an argument for the 20th land the midrangier you get, so maybe -1 fetch, +1 Force, +1 Creeping Tar Pit in the board? It's great against Shardless, Blade decks, the mirror (which usually turns into a grindfest), is one of the best answers to Jace and is just generally fantastic against Miracles.

Deathrite is usually the turn 1 play that you want the most since he both makes Daze more powerful and opens up some incredibly strong turn 2s like Hymn + Delver or Wasteland + Decay.

[and3h]

Thanks for the reply btm10, first change then is going to be -1 misty rainforest for the force of will, to see how that works out. Better try grinding some games out...

[Ahtii]

Went 5-2 (14/109) yesterday with this list

4 Underground sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Dark Confidant

4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
4 Force of will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Disfigure
4 Abrupt Decay

SB:
3 Liliana of the veil
2 Jace the Mindsculptor
1 Pithing needle
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Envelop
1 Disfigure
1 Dark confidant
1 Golgari Charm
1 Marsh Casualties


R1 , Lost to cheerios with retract+glimpse+beck//call, all dudes artifacts 1-2 (he had god hands , won through fow + hymn both games i lost) (-4 decay , -1 disfigure, -1 tarmogoyf --> 2 Envelop, 3 Surgical , 1 Dark confidant)

R2 Won ANT 2-0 , nothing to say about this (-4 decay , -1 disfigure ,-1 tarmogoyf for 2 envelop,3 Surgical extraction,1 Dark Confidant)

R3 Won MUD 2-1 I won game 3 when i was basically locked out , but he just didnt manage to draw anything to block my dark confidant who went all the way with deathrite shaman who was named on pithing needle (I sideboarded 0 cards, should have taken pithing needle for disfigure I think, but as fun as it is, Disfigure kind of won me game 3 when i traded pithing needled deathrite shaman + disfigure for lodestone golem)

R4 Won Miracles 2-1. Sideboarded -4 Fow , -4 Daze , -1 Disfigure --> 3 Liliana , 2 Jace , 2 envelop , 1 Needle , 1 Dark Confidant. Game 1 my opponent only cast like CB which i decayed and jace before he died, g2 I lost to early
bloodmoon, g3 opponent didint draw enough lands and dark confidant ran away with the game.

R5 Won Against Infect 2-1, Opponent played 2 Gitaxian probes and scooped the game after mulligan. I put him on some kind of combodeck, Sideboarded out 4 Decay and 1 Disfigure for 3 Liliana and 2 Envelop. lost g2... G3 he mulliganed again where I drew really good draw with this time correctly sideboarded deck. (dont remember exactly how i sided , took out 4 fow+1Hymn for needle + disfigure + confidant + Marsh Casualties + golgari charm i think)

R6 Against Burg delver , Lost 0-2. I think i played poorly this matchup, Didnt test enough , and to be honest I didnt know what to expect from it... so many different builds. Lost game 1 to Gurmag angler and bolts, G2 Sideboarded horribly wrong (-4 fow -2 tseize for 1 disfigure , 2 jace , 3 liliana) Opponent was playing stifle after all (didnt show any in game1, and he had left dazes in on draw) My plan went horribly wrong as I died to Young pyromancer and Delver of secrets backed up couple of stifles.

R7 against Reanimator won 2-0. This round was funny. I won the die roll , started of with a deathrite shaman, opponent played Island and pass i think. I went Hymn to tourach T2 Opponent tried to brainstorm in response , And i force of willed it I think. Hymn hit Tropical island and Force of will. Opponent played swamp as a last card i saw in that game, bit later i played some threats and opponent conceded... I saw Island , Swamp , Brainstorm , Force of will , Tropical Island --> I thought its some kind of BUG control , Bug landstill (got some popularity in Finland) or Shardless Bug. I sideboarded just a littlebit expecting some kind of bug control deck. (-2 Force of will , -2 thoughtseize for 2 Jace , 1 Liliana , 1 Dark Confidant) G2 Opponent started of with Carefull study into Griselbrand in grave..... I had t1 deathrite, opponent had Exhume + needle in hand , He went for needle on drs. I had decay + fetch to get rid of needle and griselbrand , and no counters in hand! bit later i Resolved Dark confidant -> hymn to tourach --> jace the mindsculptor to win the game and Match!

[wcm8]

Painful Truths has been working out quite well for me.

I am running it in a fairly stock list that has 13 creatures, 20 lands, Hymn.

I think the right number to run MD is probably going to end up being 2 copies, but to get a better sense of what it accomplishes in test games I increased the number to 3. I moved my usual singleton copy of Sylvan Library to the board, though normally that's been really good in the MD against the numerous Swords to Plowshares decks out there.

Truths further solidifies TA's midrange power. Resolving it feels a lot like playing Treasure Cruise except that your opponent doesn't have access to TC themselves. Drawing 3 cards, even at the cost of 3 life is good at all points of the game (late-game Burn matchups aside), whether you're ahead or trying to catch up. I'll admit that it's weaker than Cruise in that it doesn't typically allow you to play as many of the drawn cards right away, but with access to FoW and Daze and a fair amount of 1-drops that's not typically a huge problem.

I definitely expect to see this card showing up more frequently in Tier 1 deck lists, though I don't think it'd end up being anywhere near as format-warping as the Delve spells were.

[ManCharm]

Hey all,

Played in Kansas City (3rd/77) and I'm doing some tuning to my board before an IQ near me in a week. Here's my list I played:

Maindeck:

Creatures
2 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will

Planeswalkers
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sorceries
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize

Lands
2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
2 Disfigure
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
2 Golgari Charm
1 Misdirection
2 Spell Snare
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Toxic Deluge


My list felt nearly perfect. Only outlier was the second spell snare. I'm considering making it an Umezawa's Jitte. Any thoughts on that?

[H]

Congrats on the strong finish, it's good to see Delver back in a top 8.

I guess the question on Spell Snare is what matchups do you use it in? Considering that, what matchups do you plan to use Jitte in? Ergo, what do you see as the trade-off here?

[ManCharm]

Congrats on the strong finish, it's good to see Delver back in a top 8.

I guess the question on Spell Snare is what matchups do you use it in? Considering that, what matchups do you plan to use Jitte in? Ergo, what do you see as the trade-off here?

The Jitte is mostly a 'cute' idea, was just seeing if anyone else tried it. I'd say the lack of creature threats make it a questionable choice. Spell Snare is super good against current popular decks that are less favorable matchups (miracles, shardless, competent storm pilots, etc), but the 2 felt a little dense, I'll test it a bit more though. Soft permission is not where this deck wants to be right now.

Thank you btw, 3 years of losing win-and-ins with TES got me a little fed up :p