Hello everybody! My name is Jerry Mee and this is pretty much my first post on the source. I recently came in 3rd at SCG Providence on 06/08/14 with a BUG Delver list that Cedric Phillips described as “eccentric”. I have received a lot of questions on social media about the list, so I figured here was as good as any to post the answers.
First the list
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=68701
Also if you want to see it in action here is my 8th round win against Matt Costa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqMbu9RbxQc
and my first loss of the day in the semi finals against David Sheils (I did scoop in round 4 against miracles in order to avoid the draw bracket)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTK3AviKfO0
SCG messed up the side board a little, there are supposed to be 2x Pithing Needle and only 1 Sylvan Library, and the missing card is a Toxic Deluge. Also that is no mistake on the main deck; I did in fact run 62 cards main.
62 cards what?!?
Believe me when I say that running 62 cards was not the result of a last minute deck choice, or not knowing what to cut. I have been running BUG Delver since November when I spoke with Bob Huang at GPDC and the following weeks SCG open. Bob convinced me it was the best deck in legacy and I have been running and tuning the deck ever since. The 62 card version of the deck originated back in late February and I have been running almost the same list, save a few side board spots, for almost 4 months now.
The reason why I can get away with running 62 cards is one of my favorite cards in legacy, Gitaxian Probe. The original list only had 2 gitaxian probes but I soon realized that they were one of the most powerful cards in the deck. Turn 1 is super important to the deck and knowing if you should run out a delver/DRS or hold up mana for stifle/spell pierce makes or breaks games. (thanks go out to legacy grinder Josh Cicio who taught me this important lesson) I know it goes against deck building theory, but probe is a "free" cycle card that lets you fudge this rule. If you are dead set on a 60 card deck you can cut 2 probes or 2 disfigures or 1 and 1 depending on how combo heavy your meta is but I advise against it. Every card is super important in today’s meta and I would not want to shave anymore then I already have.
No Discard Spells?
When I first started running the list I had the more traditional build with Hymn, Thoughtseize and Lilliana. But I found myself getting stomped by decks like Miracles which could play off the top of the library. Also I found it was counter intuitive to run a deck with wasteland and daze as well as discard spells. Why are you stripping cards from their hand if they can’t get the mana to cast those spells in the first place? I constantly found myself in positions where my opponent had no cards in hand and my discard was dead. Or my opponent had a full grip with no lands in play and my discard was ineffective. So I decided to go all in on the mana denial plan and add stifle and spell pierce. This was also much easier on my mana requirements which allowed me to move in a more blue direction. This also allowed true-name nemesis which is very important against stoneforge decks. As well as cut the bayous in order to increase daze’s effectiveness.
The end result is that this version of the deck has a much better match up against Miracles, Esper, Death & Taxes and most importantly the mirror against other Delver decks.
No Tarmagoyf?!?!
This seemed to be the biggest thing Cedric Phillips and Patrick Sullivan could not wrap their heads around. Believe it or not Tarmagoyf was first one of the first things cut from the list as it is probably one of the worst cards in the deck. I never had time to cast it, there was always something better to be doing. between leaving up mana for abrupt decay, stifle, spell pierce, or the preferable 2 drop, Dark Confidant, Tarmagoyf just always seemed to take the back burner.
This was another lesson Josh Cicio taught me, at the end of the day Tarmagoyf is just a vanilla dude, a very big dude, but a dude all the same. He does not do enough to progress your board state and if you think about it TNN does all the same things as goyf but better. He blocks better, he dodges removal better, and he even attacks through a board stall better. Sure TNN will swing in for 1 or 2 points of damage less. But at least he can get through a batterskull or a wall of elves in order to close out a game.
At the End of the Day
I have much more to say on the topic but this is already far too long winded so I will cut myself off. In closing I just want to say that while the list looks weird, it is the result of a lot of testing and tuning. I have moneyed (or tied for 5th on breakers out of money…daggers) in every legacy tourney I have played in for the last 3 months with this list. As my friends will tell you I’m really not that good at magic ha-ha so clearly the deck has to have played some role in my success. Please forgive the many spelling and grammar issues in this post as I wrote it in one sitting and am terrible at English. If you have any questions about any part of this feel free to hit me up.
PS I want to send a huge thank you out to my friends Mike and Dan. They did not play in the Open but instead kept me fresh and in fighting spirits with a constant flow of water food and moral support!
TL;DR
• Tarmagoyf is terrible
• Discard spells are terrible in this meta as well as combined with mana denial
• Gitaxian probe is one of the best cards in legacy
• Stifle / Spell pierce are great additions
• This version of the list has the leg up on miracles and the mirror
Interesting list, and congrats on the finishes.
However, I think you may be dismissing Hymn and Goyf without giving them enough credit. Consider how Hymn gives you "free" wins and also plays into the mana denial plan when it hits lands. Goyf being huge and only costing 2 is relevant quite frequently, and a problem with running TNN is that you can't always cast Golgari charm in the SB games at the right time. I agree that Goyf is under possible consideration to cut, especially if we get another amazing 1-drop.
I think your approach to TA is definitely valid and indeed may be better against the right matchups.
How do people feel about Liliana in the ANT/TES matchup? My meta of 10-12 regulars usually has at least 2 storm and I hit two tonight at my Legacy event (1 win, 1 loss). She is repeatable disruption, sure, but I never find myself wanting to tap out to play her unless I already know I can't die that turn. Any thoughts?
I like having it as an option to hedge against Xantid Swarm and Dark Confidant.Originally Posted by TheHeff
I think it's fair to say that there are several ways to build a winning BUG Delver deck, each with pros and cons and each adhering to different strategies. Gitaxian Probe makes sense in builds that run Stifle and Spell Pierce. Thoughtseize provides the same information that Gitaxian Probe does, except you also get to nab the opponent's best card, but at the cost of tapping. Jerry is employing the RUG strategy of Probe for early-game information and holding up mana, whereas the traditional builds more commonly tap out for Hymn to Tourach, Thoughtseize, or Liliana. It's easy to see that maindeck Dark Confidants along with Spell Pierce, Stifle, and True-Name Nemesis improve the Miracles matchup. What's murkier is how the creature swaps change the vulnerabilities in other matchups. Jerry's build is more susceptible to Zealous Persecution, Golgari Charm, Marsh Casualties, Grim Lavamancer, and Toxic Deluge but isn't hit as hard by Rest in Peace, Abrupt Decay, and Swords to Plowshares. Rest in Peace humbles Tarmogoyf and can strand Tombstalker in hand, but neither fatty cares about mass-minus effects or an active Lavamancer. Minus the free games of Stifle + Wasteland + Delver on the play, Jerry's build seems to favor a longer game than the traditional BUG Delver lists, although perhaps not as long a game as the one Shardless BUG aims to play. True-Name Nemesis demands hitting land No. 3 if you lack a Deathrite Shaman, but Stifle can protect against Wasteland if you aren't using Stifle offensively. The life loss from Jerry's build is more pronounced than the traditional list, as Dark Confidant doesn't give you cards for free. The possibility of flipping Force of Will off Dark Confidant is a minor risk but an added risk nonetheless. Against Miracles, that's acceptable, but it wouldn't be well-positioned against UR Delver or Burn, nor would I like it against RUG players who board in burn. All in all, I see advantages and disadvantages to each approach.
Here's an article I wrote about the deck I took to a second-place finish at the last SCG Legacy Open. I hope you enjoy it!
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...of-Delver.html
Nicely written and insightful. Well worth the read, thanks a lot!
Currently playing:
Canadian Threshold Primer!
My blog about Legacy, limited, EDH and stuff!
Nice report Rich and congrats on your success again last weekend. I'll add it to the list of links next time I update the primer.
In regards to Legacy:
Good read, Rich, and congrats on the finals! I didn't realize you were a Sourcer! I'll have to introduce myself next time I see you.
We seem to disagree on some points (Jace, 3 Ponder), but I'm glad to see that powerful mages are generally coming to the same conclusions about the deck. Makes me think we're onto the right track.
I got 4th in the tournament last Sunday. Is anyone interested in a short tournament report? There were a few interesting decision points that I can remember and share.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
Indeed!
(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
My answer is still yes.
Why wouldn't we want a report from one of our best players? Definitely post one when you get a chance!
In regards to Legacy:
Making some updates to the primer. Nothing too drastic. Want your guys' opinion on a few matchups. Previously I classified the Sneak and Show matchup as unfavored, but in recent memory I haven't had THAT hard a time beating them. Sometimes I lose to them still but that's usually when they have a nut draw. So where would you put this matchup for us: even or favored? The other matchup I want to ask about is Shardless BUG. Currently the MU is classified as even but I think it might be actually unfavorable. I'm unsure since their card advantage is really good against us but sometimes they lose to the clunkiness and durdliness of their own deck ;)
In regards to Legacy:
"Previously I classified the Sneak and Show matchup as unfavored, but in recent memory I haven't had THAT hard a time beating them."
I went 6-0 against Sneak and Show over the past weekend. It would definitely call it a favorable matchup.
Shardless BUG is more difficult. I would say it is slightly unfavorable, though not unwinnable by any means.
This is generally my opinion as well. Sneak & Show, by its get nature of being an A + B combo deck, is particularly vulnerable to hand disruption. Combined that with out countermagic + potential for a fast clock, we are a pretty tough matchup for them.
the hardest matchups for this deck are swarming decks with tons and tons of creatures. Elves, DNT, Merfolk, and goblins
A deck that can drop a threat on the board every turn. Other decks we should have a favorable or even matchup. Except maybe miracles for me
I agree with this mostly. My experiences after a handful of tourneys with this lovely deck are:
- Sneak&Show: about even (Moon effects kill us, but we are well equipped to battle their main plan)
- Shardless: very uncertain preboard, unfavourable postboard (depends highly on your and their build: if they survive the first five turns, their card advantage engines will take over. If not, we just crush them. It's never been really exciting in my experience.)
- Merfolk: Absolutely hopeless. I had a God Draw once, and still lost. Only won this MU once when my opponent made several mistakes AND drew badly.
- Goblins: Unfavourable, unless they play an older list. Krenko is an auto-loss.
- D&T: Unsure yet from my point of view. I have one 2-1 win, but I felt it could go either way, really.
- Miracles: Unsure yet (felt unwinnable in some games, and like a walkover in others - seriously, what a difference drawn cards can make...)
I actually beat merfolk ONCE in a tournament.
I was lucky he was dropping complete crap. However, it still went 2-1. Once TNN and images drop, its GG.
Yeah, Merfolk is pretty unfavorable. I'm one-and-one against it in SCG Opens with this deck. My experience is that Delver hands get there but most others don't. Engineered Explosives is good, if you run that. Engineered Plague is great if you don't run TNN yourself and can keep their lords off the board. Other than that, just don't let them have Aether Vial if you can help it. Even for a deck with a glob of basic Islands, the deck has a pretty greedy manabase, so you can mana screw them and then not have to worry about TNN. If the matchup comes up often, Sinkhole might also be worth playtesting, since many Merfolk decks have dropped Daze in order to Cavern of Souls --> TNN, meaning you could blow up their basics and supplement the Wasteland strategy. Llawan is also still a card, but obviously very narrow.
Edit: A rare but fun line would be to Daze your own Abrupt Decay to turn off islandwalk before blockers.
I think we also must consider if it is worth packing Fish hate in our board. E plague and Lilly seem decent vs them though
(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
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