[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[btm10]

I played Team America at Legacy Champs. Had a good run until round 5, then hit the bad end of variance. I ended up dropping at 5-3 since the tournament started two hours late, the round turnover was atrocious, and I would prefer to eat and drink than try to win $50 credit.

I've been testing Stifle, Hymn, and Thoughtseize. Of the three, I still prefer Hymn. The Stifle lists have a somewhat shaky manabase with only 6 or so duals - I find that I get knocked off black too much when it matters. Also holding up Stifle can be tough and I've found Pierce to be pretty atrocious right now in tempo decks. That being said, I've never liked or been especially good with the Pierce/Stifle tempo decks. Thoughtseize is trading one-for-one when most decks are either incredibly redundant or can reload off the top or both. Hymn is incredibly disruptive, can hit lands, and follows the plan of denying them resources to function.

...

Overall the list is pretty tuned to beat Miracles. Hymn, Lili, Tar Pit, and Library are all difficult cards for them in the maindeck, and they have a high amount of crossover for the expected field. I was testing with 4 Cruise and it was sometimes clunky so I tried out Sylvan Library again. It's an incredible card against the white decks, just as it's always been, but I think it was a mistake to cut the fourth Cruise in retrospect. I would absolutely play with 4 Cruise and a Library - this deck can very quickly put the opponent facing down an insurmountable board advantage with enough resources. Right now it plays more like a midrange-control deck than a midrange-aggro deck like it was before. BEB and Jitte were for the UR Delver matchup, and that plus Charm should make it pretty even if not favorable for BUG. I really had reservations about cutting the second Pierce - the list as-is is much weaker to combo than it was before.

Sorry your last two rounds didn't come together all that well. A strong showing nonetheless. I really like this take on the deck and will be testing some of the modifications you've made from the other Cruise lists running around, including my own. I probably won't go up to the fourth Cruise, but I've been looking to get Sylvan back into the maindeck - trimming a Daze is probably worth revisiting (I had done it just before Cruise was printed but ended up not being happy with it). I'm definitely off of the 13th creature and have had a similar experience to yours in feeling like the deck wants to slow down and be controlling. I've generally removed Dazes postboard against Blade decks and other Delver strategies in favor of lots of board interaction, and part of that package are Sylvan and Tar Pit (which means that both are coming in in basically all non-combo matchups). I take it that Hymn wasn't as ineffective as many had expected against other Cruise decks? I've been relatively happy with Thoughtseize recently, but I'm totally open to Hymn if it's been working for you. Every time I've tested Stifle it's seemed really marginal, even though at least one person at my shop has had a lot of success with it.

Anyway, did fine at the local last night. Went 3-1, beating Infect, Sneak and Show, UR Delver, and losing to UWR Delver. Game 1 of the last match I got triple Wastelanded and had two Deathrites killed, and game 2 I took a hit off of a flipped Delver to set up a 2-for-1 that ended up leaving me in double bolt range after I stabilized the board and died to double Bolt off of Treasure Cruise. I feel like I need to test UWR-Delver a little more to see if my old SB strategy of "kill everything they play" will still be effective in a post-Cruise meta, or if my approach to the match is flawed when they can easily reload.

[iostream]

Nice run. Too bad about fizzling out at the end. What was the field like? Did you get any time to scout? You came prepared for Miracles but didn't face it over eight rounds. Did Miracles not show up in force, or was it in a different bracket? How about the numbers for combo? Having a bunch of decks running Force isn't the greatest for combo, but most of the Cruise decks have primarily dropped secondary permission or disruption in order to play the draw engine, which puts combo in a decent spot.

Yeah, I'm curious about why the list was tuned to beat Miracles. It seems like the thing to actually metagame against should be UR and UWR Delver - against those decks, maindeck Tar Pit seems really wrong. As for combo, only one made top 8, and only a handful more showed up in the top 24, so I think his decision to cut cards against combo was definitely right.

[phazonmutant]

Nice run. Too bad about fizzling out at the end. What was the field like? Did you get any time to scout? You came prepared for Miracles but didn't face it over eight rounds. Did Miracles not show up in force, or was it in a different bracket? How about the numbers for combo? Having a bunch of decks running Force isn't the greatest for combo, but most of the Cruise decks have primarily dropped secondary permission or disruption in order to play the draw engine, which puts combo in a decent spot.

Thanks! TONS of UR Delver. That's by far the most standout thing. I didn't scout much, but I'll share my impressions. I didn't see much Miracles or combo - I think the Reanimator player I lost to might have been one of the few at the top tables. I know Bob Huang dropped at 2-2 with Sneak and Show. For the most part, just a pile of Delver decks.

Bob agreed that UR seems weak to Combo, but that deck just consistently seems to do its thing regardless of expectations (in both Vintage and Legacy). Even if it doesn't have that much interaction, it seems to always draw it because it has so much velocity.

Sorry your last two rounds didn't come together all that well. A strong showing nonetheless. I really like this take on the deck and will be testing some of the modifications you've made from the other Cruise lists running around, including my own. I probably won't go up to the fourth Cruise, but I've been looking to get Sylvan back into the maindeck - trimming a Daze is probably worth revisiting (I had done it just before Cruise was printed but ended up not being happy with it). I'm definitely off of the 13th creature and have had a similar experience to yours in feeling like the deck wants to slow down and be controlling. I've generally removed Dazes postboard against Blade decks and other Delver strategies in favor of lots of board interaction, and part of that package are Sylvan and Tar Pit (which means that both are coming in in basically all non-combo matchups). I take it that Hymn wasn't as ineffective as many had expected against other Cruise decks? I've been relatively happy with Thoughtseize recently, but I'm totally open to Hymn if it's been working for you. Every time I've tested Stifle it's seemed really marginal, even though at least one person at my shop has had a lot of success with it.

Anyway, did fine at the local last night. Went 3-1, beating Infect, Sneak and Show, UR Delver, and losing to UWR Delver. Game 1 of the last match I got triple Wastelanded and had two Deathrites killed, and game 2 I took a hit off of a flipped Delver to set up a 2-for-1 that ended up leaving me in double bolt range after I stabilized the board and died to double Bolt off of Treasure Cruise. I feel like I need to test UWR-Delver a little more to see if my old SB strategy of "kill everything they play" will still be effective in a post-Cruise meta, or if my approach to the match is flawed when they can easily reload.

Me too :/ Thanks though! Agreed, I cut Daze against every non-combo matchup on the draw, and only leave it in on the play in a few. I'm wondering if it's worthwhile to trim another. Hymn has still been pretty amazing. Before they Cruise, it can sometimes hit the Cruise or the lands they need. After the Cruise, it's one of the few cards that recoup advantage and can knock them off their position of inevitability. I might try more Thoughtseize main or in the board again since this build is weaker to combo.

Yeah, I'm curious about why the list was tuned to beat Miracles. It seems like the thing to actually metagame against should be UR and UWR Delver - against those decks, maindeck Tar Pit seems really wrong. As for combo, only one made top 8, and only a handful more showed up in the top 24, so I think his decision to cut cards against combo was definitely right.

Definitely, Tar Pit is not amazing against UR and UWR. It's fine as the 20th land though, and good in Stoneblade matchups in general. I think I was tuning for a different regional metagame than Eternal Weekend. In the Pacific Northwest, there is an unholy horde of Miracles players. At sdematt's Win-A-Mox the weekend before the event, there were 3 Miracles in the top 8, and each top 8 player faced Miracles at least twice. Also Death & Taxes is well represented here, but was just absent at EW. I think a large part of that is regional meta. So I was just expecting a different field, with more white decks. I expected my board hate against UR to be enough. I think it might be, but I need more testing to be sure.

[Thorhammer]

Definitely, Tar Pit is not amazing against UR and UWR. It's fine as the 20th land though, and good in Stoneblade matchups in general. I think I was tuning for a different regional metagame than Eternal Weekend. In the Pacific Northwest, there is an unholy horde of Miracles players. At sdematt's Win-A-Mox the weekend before the event, there were 3 Miracles in the top 8, and each top 8 player faced Miracles at least twice. Also Death & Taxes is well represented here, but was just absent at EW. I think a large part of that is regional meta. So I was just expecting a different field, with more white decks. I expected my board hate against UR to be enough. I think it might be, but I need more testing to be sure.

Seems also like the Pacific NW likes it's delver decks too. I faced a lot of RUG last time I was there so I wonder if people will make the switch to UR.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Hymn has still been pretty amazing. Before they Cruise, it can sometimes hit the Cruise or the lands they need. After the Cruise, it's one of the few cards that recoup advantage and can knock them off their position of inevitability. I might try more Thoughtseize main or in the board again since this build is weaker to combo.

Glad to hear you're still having good success with the deck even if it didn't really come together in the end at Champs. Interesting to see someone come out and say that Hymn isn't as bad as people made it out to be post-Khans again. I haven't had much testing with BUG Delver post-Khans, but I do think people prematurely dismissed Hymn. They want it to always utterly screw the opponent, forgetting that a 2-for-1 for two mana is still pretty alright even if it doesn't outright win the game for you.

[iostream]

I cut Daze against every non-combo matchup on the draw, and only leave it in on the play in a few. I'm wondering if it's worthwhile to trim another.

Is it really effective to play just 2 Daze, though? It's always struck me as one of those 4 or 0 cards since you really want to see them in your opener or in the first few turns. Not to mention that cutting free spells inherently makes TC a bit worse.

[Borealis]

Is it really effective to play just 2 Daze, though? It's always struck me as one of those 4 or 0 cards since you really want to see them in your opener or in the first few turns. Not to mention that cutting free spells inherently makes TC a bit worse.

I've done it. The 0 or 4 rule is a good rule of thumb, but doesn't apply to every scenario. Often you want to keep a couple Daze as a "gotcha" effect, or to still be able to interact for Zero Mana despite it not being the best card. Certainly it's worse the later the game goes, but it's also a fine card to pitch to Force or BS away. When you only have a couple, it's easier to mitigate it's downsides while still having a chance to draw it in the perfect spot.

Usually I cut it entirely against fair decks on the draw, but might keep a couple copies against Blue decks. It all depends on the scenario though, as usual.

[phazonmutant]

Is it really effective to play just 2 Daze, though? It's always struck me as one of those 4 or 0 cards since you really want to see them in your opener or in the first few turns. Not to mention that cutting free spells inherently makes TC a bit worse.

I think so. If they see Delver, they'll play around 4 Daze. If they don't, sometimes they assume you're some sort of BUG control and don't play around Daze at all (even midgame). Both cases are good for running 2 Daze. It's also a pretty miserable topdeck. But...the card is really good on the play in the early-to-midgame. I'm not saying I'm correct, just that I've had instances of thinking about setting Daze on fire about as often as being glad I drew it. Daze is a weird one for Cruise - sure it's another spell to cast, but you pick up a land so that kind of negates it. Also the way the deck is built now, it takes better advantage of all of its mana, so putting a land in hand isn't just +1 cards like it used to be.

I've done it. The 0 or 4 rule is a good rule of thumb, but doesn't apply to every scenario. Often you want to keep a couple Daze as a "gotcha" effect, or to still be able to interact for Zero Mana despite it not being the best card. Certainly it's worse the later the game goes, but it's also a fine card to pitch to Force or BS away. When you only have a couple, it's easier to mitigate it's downsides while still having a chance to draw it in the perfect spot.

Usually I cut it entirely against fair decks on the draw, but might keep a couple copies against Blue decks. It all depends on the scenario though, as usual.

Exactly this.

[btm10]

I basically agree with all of this. I'm going to test -1 Daze, +1 Hymn (for the 3/3 split) sometime this weekend. I could easily see cutting another Daze for Sylvan, but I think we want to be more aggressive than that in the new meta, especially against Burn and UR.

[Asthereal]

Hi guys,

Back from some absence in this thread. I had a tournament this weekend and I could not find a Team America list that I really liked, so I went back to the drawing board yesterday and came up with a newish list that I had not seen anywhere yet, and decided to give it a roll today. Later on I will explain how the tournament went, but first I will explain my choices.

I really really wanted to make Cruise work in the deck. The only thing, if any, that this deck lacks, is staying power. Apart from Sylvan Library, of course, but Sylvan is not an instant or sorcery for Delver, it is not blue for Force of Will, and drawing cards costs life, so the disadvantages of Sylvan compared to Cruise are clear. So in order to add Cruise to the deck, I needed not only to make space, but also tune the list a bit. My Tombstalkers would have to go, obviously. More importantly, I felt that any card that sometimes gets clunky and clogs up my hand should have to go, since getting stuck with no double black and two Hymns and a Cruise in hand is just backbreaking. So I decided, after some hard thought, that I wanted to streamline the mana curve as much as I could, so Cruises would be the only awkard cards in my deck. Here's what I came up with:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf /12

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce (replacement for the Hymns)
3 Disfigure (I expected a lot of UR PyroDelver decks)
3 Abrupt Decay /29

4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland /19

Side:
4 Thoughtseize
1 Darkblast (!!)
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique /15

About the main:
1. Yes, I do miss the Hymns, but I don't miss the times where I couldn't cast them.
2. 29 spells is awesome for flipping Delvers. Suddenly Delver is my best attacker.
3. The list feels really streamlined. Cruise can get stuck in your hand, but that's usually it.

About the side:
1. Most importantly: I boarded in all my sideboard cards in the six matches I played.
2. The Thoughtseizes were the only cards I wasn't really happy with, or sure of anyway. I never cast it, but I'm also not sure whether it belongs in the list. The main deck is somewhat weak to Combo though, so I definitely need something.
3. Sylvan Library was great again as substitute for Cruise. When I expected grave hate, I boarded 1-2 Cruise out and replaced them with the Sylvan, which shone as usual.

The tournament (I won't go into detail too much, but here's a summary):

Round 1 vs UB Tezzeret. 2-0
Awesome deck, but BUG is by far the strongest Delver deck against it because of Decay. Felt like an easy match, though I was lucky here and there.

Round 2 vs Elves. 1-2
He was on the play twice, which was important. Elves is a hard matchup. You need to draw well to hacve a shot. I didn't, and I went down as expected, being on the draw twice and having to mull on both of those games.

Round 3 against Dredge. 2-1
Should have been 2-0, but I messed up my win. I missed the fact that he had an Elesh Norn, which my very late Deathrite could have eaten. I could have raced Grisel by Disfiguring the dude that he would block, preventing the life gain. I am not a good player.

Round 4 against Burn. 1-2
Burn is not an easy matchup. Very loseable even. Still, I had the win, and I screwed it up again. Game 3 during the critical turn I forgot my Sylvan Library extra draws, which would have given me a Force that I could hardcast, which I missed. That would counter the burn spell that killed me. Even worse, I needed one more point of damage to kill him, and I missed the fact that I could have Decayed my own Sylvan, making Goyf bigger for the win. Again, I am not a good player.

Round 5 against Esper Blade. 2-1
Exciting games. I made mistakes in the game I lost. When I played well, he had nothing. But then again Esper feels like a good matchup anyway.

Round 6 against UR PyroDelver. 2-1
There it is! Darkblast was awesome here, killing both Delver and Pyro twice. I got killed on the draw because I stumbled on expensive cards (the first time in the tourney), but this matchup felt very winnable, because of the fact that I had more counters, better creatures and awesome removal.

So I went 4-2, but should have been 5-1 and in the top-8. The biggest enemy of this deck is it's pilot, it seems. I need more practice. Over all I am really happy with the list. Only the sideboard may need some work.

What do you guys think?

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

I like the list, elves or tribal would be tough. I would change the SB,
-1 maelstrom pulse
-1 Surgical Extraction
+2 Toxic Deluge/Engineered Plague

If your using thoughtsieze for combo, switch them out for Duress, less life loss.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Thoughtseize has better flexibility, sometimes you have to take a grisselbrand, and often times the life loss genuinely doesn't matter

[Asthereal]

Thoughtseize has better flexibility, sometimes you have to take a grisselbrand, and often times the life loss genuinely doesn't matter

That's why I chose Seize over Duress.

But about the rest:
Do you guys think one grave hate card is enough? I always feel I need at least two.
The surgical is the worst, so if I had to cut one, it'd be that one, but I feel I need it.
Maybe I can try -1 Pulse, +1 Deluge as a start. See where that goes.

How badly do we need the Pithing Needles?

[Star|Scream]

Hi guys,


Round 4 against Burn. 1-2
Burn is not an easy matchup. Very loseable even. Still, I had the win, and I screwed it up again. Game 3 during the critical turn I forgot my Sylvan Library extra draws, which would have given me a Force that I could hardcast, which I missed. That would counter the burn spell that killed me.

What do you guys think?

I think I'm missing something. If you drew an extra card from the library wouldn't the 4 life offset the burn spell?

[Asthereal]

I think I'm missing something. If you drew an extra card from the library wouldn't the 4 life offset the burn spell?

I forgot to check three cards instead of one and drew the blank that was on top.
The third card was a Force I could have hardcast on his winning Chain Lightning.
Like I said, I am not a good player.

[Star|Scream]

I forgot to check three cards instead of one and drew the blank that was on top.
The third card was a Force I could have hardcast on his winning Chain Lightning.
Like I said, I am not a good player.

I see.

It's normal to make mistakes through the course of a tournament.

[Asthereal]

I see.

It's normal to make mistakes through the course of a tournament.

True. This time they cost me hard cash though.

The deck is very strong. Better than I expected it to be, since I had designed it on notepad -like I always do- but never really tested it. Only a couple of goldfish rounds to see whether the mana curve and the "flow" of the deck were as I expected them to be, and that was it.

[Purgatory]

Top 8'ed a 75-people tournament this weekend, going 5-1-1. I missed top 8 the night before (46 players IIRC) since I lost my win-and-in vs. Death and Taxes ending 4-2-1.


4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Stifle
3 Treasure Cruise
2 Spell Pierce
1 Dimir Charm

Sideboard:
3 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod

3 Cruise felt solid, Dimir Charm felt solid, Stifle felt solid. I would play the exact same 75 any day in an unknown metagame, though DnT is harsh. Elves is difficult too, but manageable after sideboard. UR Delver is pretty 50/50 and draw-dependant, but I didn't lose to it over the weekend.

Report on my blog here.

[FoolofaTook]

@Purgatory

That's one of the stronger directions to take the list in this meta. All the good things about the blue shell plus 12 great creatures, Abrupt Decay and the Stifle/Waste plan as a secondary element. My only gripe about that type of list is that when Stifle doesn't show up in the opening hand the play is suboptimal against some lists. On the other hand if you go with 4 Stifles and get two of them you're in trouble against others.

Legacy only requires 2 lands to play off of for most lists. That makes BUG Delver + 3 Stifle a straddling list that has to shift directions frequently depending on the 11 cards on top of your pile when you go to draw your opening hand.

RUG Delver has additional assets to just get over the top in terms of denial. An extra Stifle, 4+ turn 1 removal for mana dorks, an extra turn 2 denial spell in Fire//Ice.

I still haven't resolved that 3 card question well in my attempts. I've gone 4 Stifle and 18 lands (really not RUG and iffy as a result), 3 Stifle and 19 lands (straddling) and as many as 3 Spell Pierce, 1 Spell Snare and 1 Counterspell (full on aggro control with weakness against tribal).

If we could figure out that 3 card slot I think BUG Delver would be by far the strongest list in the meta right now.

[TheHeff]

I've been toying around with a couple of the lists suggested on here, just wanted to add my thoughts on here. Almost all of my testing is based on MTGO and that meta (heavy combo/UR Delver presence) so keep that in mind.

I've mainly been toying around with land count (19 or 20) and some of the flex spots (3 or 4 Cruise, Hymn/Thoughtseize/Stifle) as well as numbers in the sideboard. I've been running Chill in my list for awhile now, and even though it hoses Burn (and Goblins, which has been popping up more on MTGO for some reason), unless it comes down T2 against UR Delver it's not enough to bring you back into the game if you're already behind. If I end up running the 20 lands (which I'll get to in a second), I might end up running 2x Zuran Orb. Running 1x Jitte in the sideboard also proved to not really come down and become useful fast enough, as it's a wasted card unless you can stick a Goyf AND a Jitte AND get hits in. Not to mention we don't run SFM to tutor it. Still a WIP, but I'm liking this board right now:

3x Disfigure
2x Golgari Charm
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
3x Spell Pierce
1x Vendilion Clique
-2x Flex (Chill, Liliana, Duress, Zuran Orb)

As for the Hymn/Stifle/Thoughtseize debate, I can say I definitely DON'T like Thoughtseize here. Lifeloss in this meta can be a tough pill to swallow without reliable lifegain (like a Jitte or BSkull), and DRS isn't exactly that. Hymn is the card with more raw power, but Stifle is the one with more flexibility. Former RUG players will know the power of this card- Miracle triggers, Living Weapon triggers, Storm triggers, Jitte activations, Annihilator triggers, Craterhoof triggers...the list is endless. This card selection very much chooses the style of the deck as well- running Hymn encourages a more "tap-out" philosophy, efficiently using all your mana every turn to play things like Goyf and Hymn to put yourself ahead. Stifle encourages you to play more on your opponents turn, only tapping mana to play out a threat or Ponder while holding mana up for your reactionary cards. In this meta, I personally love the more RUG tempo style feel of the Stifle lists as it's a more versatile card and allows the deck to play a solid tempo game, even against UR Delver. As far as lands go, 20 lands is superb feeling, it's comfortable, it's safe...and probably just one too many. Even with Brainstorms to bury extra lands I've often found myself flooding out on 20 rather than 19. Running 19 can occasionally get you into some bad situations, but Stifle can protect your manabase against Wasteland and DRS is still the best planeswalker in Legacy, protect him and you won't have mana problems. Running the traditional 19 land setup (3 Trop, 3 Sea, 4 Waste, 9 Fetch) can also let you play some cute games...4 Scalding Tarn + 4 Flooded Strand + 1 Delta/Verdant/Misty still fetches all your duals, and can fake people into thinking you're on UR Delver, Miracles, Storm, etc.