It may be the case that Zur's Weirding is a win-more in this specific combo match up. "Low on resources" is a bit of a vague statement. When I originally wrote this previous post, I didn't mean Hellbent. If your Omnishow or Sneak and Show opponent is Hellbent, you may have won say 90% of the time (that is assuming that you have a clock; they could still draw out of this). There is some small portion of these instances where they can draw gas and then draw gas and get you.Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
I disagree with your second statement, that ZW is win-less for each turn that it sat in your hand. Based on your statement the same could be said about any card that doesn't line up well with what your opponent is trying to do. For example, you could never have a good opportunity to jam a Tarmogoyf in a given game. Does that make it win-less? If so, should we be boarding out all of our Tarmogoyfs? Furthermore, what if our Omnishow opponent goes off on turn two and we never get a shot to play a third land. Should we start boarding out lands? I feel that there is a fundamental flaw in the logic. Just because you didn't use a card doesn't means it was worthless or detrimental. At the end of the day it is still a blue card that pitches to FoW, is a card that can get shuffled away with a Brainstorm, and has the potential upside of more or less locking out our opponent long enough for us to finish them off. I understand what you are saying, in that, this ZW could have been better if it had been something like Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, Spell Pierce, Counterspell or Force of Will. However none of these card will single-handedly ensure that you have multiple turns, like a correctly played ZW will. I want to resolve a Delver, maybe a Goyf, and then proceed keep them from resolving anything meaningful. Zur's Weirding allows for you to be able to do that for a number of turns. I get that I may not sell you on Zur's Weirding. That is totally cool. It may be win-more some of the time, but it provides a unique effect that lets you steal games you otherwise would have lost. I am not playing it at the moment, but when I know a good portion of my local meta is going to be Miracles, it comes back in. There are plenty of Non-Miracles match ups where I would bring it in post-board.
Just to get up on my soapbox for a minute... I think I said this a bit earlier (maybe in fewer words), but I am still not sure why everyone is so hung up on Omnishow. Sure we saw a few copies in the Top 8 of the Japanese Legacy GP. Japan has the bluest and most combo heavy sub-meta in the world. Just because a deck does well at one GP or Open doesn't directly translate to it being the "Best Deck" (I think this is a really poor assumption that lots of players make; and actually I see/hear friends at my LGS do it all the time; I will overhear, "X is the best deck in Y format" or "X is just positioned so well right now." Sure it may be if you hit your good match ups all day, know your deck, your opponents' decks, how the two line up each round, you draw well, your opponent draws meh or worse, etc. There are simply too many good decks in Legacy for such a statement to be universally true and too many extraneous variables in the operations of a Magic tournament to make statements like this worthwhile.). Moreover it doesn't mean that everyone at your LGS is going to turn their deck over to play the new deck. Legacy is/can be an expensive investment and as such people don't typically change decks often or rapidly. I agree that maybe there will be a slight uptick in Omnishow's portion of upcoming SCG Opens. We are talking maybe a couple percentage points; it isn't going to become 20-30% of the meta overnight. To get Tunnel Vision about a perceived "best deck," takes time and focus away from being able to prepare for other decks. That being said, I think that we have solid game against them. We have a good clock, discard, countermagic, and enchantment destruction. These are exactly what you need to take this deck out. Just my thoughts.
Legacy
Grixis Delver
Vintage
Mono Mentor
Team Leovold
Yep.
The number of times that you're casting Weirding into an opponent's unknown hand that has an answer to Weirding and a way to kill you are pretty small. Sure, there are corner cases where you windmill slam it against Miracles on turn 3 because if it connects they can't win and then they reveal REB+fetch in their hand. Whoops, got me there. The overwhelming majority of times, however, that's not going to happen. The same thing is basically true of OmniTell (also, can we please start calling the deck "Know and Tell"?) - how often are they passing the turn on turn 3 or 4 with SnT + Emrakul + protection in hand? Why aren't they just killing you? If they just have Show and Tell + Omniscience, they can't kill you unless they ALSO have a Dig Through Time or a Cunning Wish, and now we're in 3 card combo territory. I've also run Zur's Weirding in my board, and when it connects against any deck where you want it, you just win well over 90% of the time. It's like Blood Moon against us. Sure, they have improbable sets of outs, but in nearly all cases, the out needs to be in hand when the card is on the stack for it to matter at all.
I agree (again), and would go so far as to say that I think Omni is still one of our best matchups. It was extremely good when they had to Enter the Infinite to win, and it's only marginally easier for them now. Hymn, Thoughtseize, and Liliana are still incredible against them. Countering their cantrips gives you a ton of time because now they're forced to either spend protection on assembling the combo or just get one-for-oned while you have Delver/DRS/Goyf on the table. Dig can get them back into the game, but it needs to hit some very specific cards in order to win on the spot. You still probably kill them just the same if they start hellbent and cast Dig Through Time into Show and Tell + Omniscience. We'll also ignore that that line costs at least 2UUU and involves no protection. Can they win? Yes. Is the matchup in our favor? Almost surely.Just to get up on my soapbox for a minute... I think I said this a bit earlier (maybe in fewer words), but I am still not sure why everyone is so hung up on Omnishow. Sure we saw a few copies in the Top 8 of the Japanese Legacy GP. Japan has the bluest and most combo heavy sub-meta in the world. Just because a deck does well at one GP or Open doesn't directly translate to it being the "Best Deck" (I think this is a really poor assumption that lots of players make; and actually I see/hear friends at my LGS do it all the time; I will overhear, "X is the best deck in Y format" or "X is just positioned so well right now." Sure it may be if you hit your good match ups all day, know your deck, your opponents' decks, how the two line up each round, you draw well, your opponent draws meh or worse, etc. There are simply too many good decks in Legacy for such a statement to be universally true and too many extraneous variables in the operations of a Magic tournament to make statements like this worthwhile.). Moreover it doesn't mean that everyone at your LGS is going to turn their deck over to play the new deck. Legacy is/can be an expensive investment and as such people don't typically change decks often or rapidly. I agree that maybe there will be a slight uptick in Omnishow's portion of upcoming SCG Opens. We are talking maybe a couple percentage points; it isn't going to become 20-30% of the meta overnight. To get Tunnel Vision about a perceived "best deck," takes time and focus away from being able to prepare for other decks. That being said, I think that we have solid game against them. We have a good clock, discard, countermagic, and enchantment destruction. These are exactly what you need to take this deck out. Just my thoughts.
BUG Delver is Omnitells worst matchup, but quite a large margin. We have a fast clock, permission and discard plus whatever nasty permanents in the SB. Speaking of tunnel vision, you might just being perceiving it as a weaker deck than it really is because you're piloting BUG Delver. I feel like it's only just picking up steam in the states, but in Europe it's pretty rampant. I expect a very large part of the field on D2 at GP Lille will be Omni, Miracles and BUG Delver.
That sounds like a really tough meta to figure out going into the GP. If Miracles and Omnitell really are rampant then BUG Delver is a good call. However if the Miracles and OmniTell contingent know they'll be seeing BUG Delver all day it's really easy for them to chuck a couple of Blood Moons in the side and also manage outliers that give them trouble like Jund and Lands in the process.
It's this nice circle of aggro (BUG) eating combo (Omni), which eats Control (miracles, thanks to Boseiju), which in turn eats aggro. Though any match can be an upset. I feel like BUG is a dog vs Miracles as long as the pilot is good.
Unfortunately Blood Moon is a thing from Miracles again, I've hardly seen any lists not running at least one in the SB, a lot with two. BUG can beat it obviously, it's just a pain to play around.
I never said Omni was a bad deck, just that people are worrying too much about it right now. I think your assessment of what day 2 of GP Lille will look like is pretty close to accurate.
Did you mean "not a dog...as long as the pilot is good"? I think the matchup vs. the Legends build is still slightly in our favor but we're definitely (slightly) disadvantaged against the 4 Ponder and Creatureless versions. There's lots of play to the matchup no matter what and plenty of room either player to screw up.
I suspect this has something to do with Lands and the Grixis lists that don't run basics. It's still not good for us, though. I definitely think that we've all gotten sloppy with sideboard cards for Miracles (I have, at least), so that's maybe something to consider going forward.Unfortunately Blood Moon is a thing from Miracles again, I've hardly seen any lists not running at least one in the SB, a lot with two. BUG can beat it obviously, it's just a pain to play around.
Anyway, I went 3-1 in a local last night with the following list. It's definitely not "stock" but I've been bouncing around between a lot of decks lately and have some ideas that I've been wanting to try in my old standby. I played against 12Post (2-1), Death and Taxes (2-1), Grixis Delver (DRS-less, actual three color version; 1-2, though I did mull to 3 in one of those games and punted in the other one), and RUG Delver (2-0).
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
Sideboard
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Winter Orb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Liliana of the Veil
The sideboard needs some work, and Bob underperformed. He'll likely become something else the next time I run the deck. Angler was great every time I drew him except the time my opener was triple Wasteland, Angler, Dig, but that hand was already a mulligan for other reasons.
I'd recommend a main deck Clique. The meta seems full of Miracles and Omnitell, and against those Clique is very solid.
Clique is an option. Another would be TNN, which I actually like more than Clique against Miracles. Testing will tell, but unfortunately I'm also exploring other decks.
I didn't say this above, but I'd like to run Tombstalker over Angler, but the cost of a BB spell is real.
Last edited by btm10; 05-31-2015 at 02:17 PM.
Do you guys find it worth it to dedicate more slots into the sideboard such as perish, engineered plague
just to fight elves? or would you rather shore up your sideboard slots against the 50/50 matchups.
Perish kills Deathrite and Goyf. 2-3 Disfigure, 2 Golgari Charm, and a Cage are enough to make headway in the matchup.
Yeah, I don't want to sacrifice other matchups or put cards that are too situational in my 75, so I use the above in my board.
My plan versus Elves really is to let Miracles beat them, then I'll beat Miracles.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
As a miracles player, I'd much rather play against clique than Bob.
If I played vs Omni, I'd prefer clique though.
That probably depends a bit on your Miracles list.
I think both are good against Miracles, but considering his list has a very high average CMC, I can imagine he didn't like Bob too much. Clique is my choice for the 13th creature right now, and it's solid against most of the meta.
I just read his decklist.
It seems rather suicidal playing Bob in a lost sporting 4 Force, 2 Dig and Angler, and 3 thoughseize, anyhow. :D
The deck's average CMC is actually only 1.56 compared to 1.35 for my previons Hymn/Liliana list with two Bobs. I was disappointed with Bob mostly because the cards I was drawing were comparatively low impact, though I'm going to test him some more and see what happens.
That surprises me, because I counted two DDT's and an Angler (CMC 7 and 8) in your list.
Somehow I expected that would be one of the reasons to not fancy Bob so much.
Apparently you ran that stuff in your previous list as well?
I personally wouldn't run Bob in a list with 2+ cards with CMC 7 or more next to four FoWs.
But if your reason for cutting Bob is that you feel he draws you mediocre cards, then that's not really Bob's fault, is it?
(Edit: miscounted Angler's CMC. Apparently I have trouble counting to 7 or 8 now...)
Angler just costs 7 :P, and I had to fix the averages. So sorry about that.That surprises me, because I counted two DDT's and an Angler (all CMC 8) in your list.
Somehow I expected that would be one of the reasons to not fancy Bob so much.
Apparently you ran that stuff in your previous list as well?
I personally wouldn't run Bob in a list with 2+ cards with CMC 8 next to four FoWs.
But if your reason for cutting Bob is that you feel he draws you mediocre cards, then that's not really Bob's fault, is it?
You're right that it's not Bob's fault that the cards are low-impact. Like I said, I'm going to run a bit more with him.
I played 5 color Stax in Vintage the better part of a decade ago, which left me with a fairly high tolerance for running Bob and high CMC spells.
Last edited by btm10; 06-02-2015 at 10:52 AM.
I used to run 1 Engineered Plague alongside either 2 or a 1/1 split of Golgari Charm and Marsh Casualties back when True-Name Nemesis was everywhere. I found that this was very helpful in the Elves match up. It was also awesome in the one random Goblin match that I also faced about a year or so ago. Engineered Plague is situationally strong against Death and Taxes. If you name Human it takes out a very large cross-section of their deck. It can be a little tough to get into play (due to their mana denial and taxation) as it is not nearly as flexible to to instant speed casting as the other cards listed above.
I find this curious. In the last month or so, every time I resolve a Bob (I am only running one at the moment), I ran away with the game. I am not running the DTTs and Angler though.
I would like to take another moment to get up on the/my soapbox. Playing a few copies of cards with CMCs higher than FoW will not make your deck Dark Confidant deck unplayable. This may set you up for some bad beats; however, in a deck with 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder there usually are going to be plenty of ways to make sure your Bob doesn't kill you. I have been playing this deck (BUG Delver) now for 2-3 years. Not once, in any configuration, has a Bob flipped a card that killed me or led to my demise due to my opponent's board. Maybe I am a little lucky, maybe I play alright, or maybe it is a bit of both. Sure I have 5ed myself a few times hitting a FoW and I think I got Tombstalkered once. If you are careful, playing these slight dissynergies should not totally break apart your game. Typically each card you get to draw from a Bob is like a nail in your opponent's coffin. If you take a bigger chunk of damage, you may be driving a few nails at the same time. Example: Dig Through Time basically should seal the deal for you assuming your don't die flipping it and can cast it. It should find you the best two cards to fight your opponent. This is bigger impact than hitting a cantrip that might find you something useful or a conditional counter spell or discard spell. These are my thoughts on the issue. Thanks for reading!
Legacy
Vintage
I only drew Bob twice, but I cast several Digs and they were equally meh. I think part of that was that the average power of the cards in my list above is much lower than the average power of the typical Hymn/Liliana list that I'm used to, and another part is that the matchups where I was generating CA were the matches where it was just win-more instead of what the games where about in theory; basically, the game I won against Grixis was about me killing Pyromancer quickly and countering Dig, while the games I lost were about me mulling to three and the combination of Tasigur being hard to remove without Liliana and me not dealing with Young Pyromancer quickly enough. I might give Dispel a shot over a Pierce, but that's the biggest change I think I'll make before playing the deck again.
I find this very interesting. For awhile Delver variants were running an Envelop or two in the board to deal with the Terminus and Entreat the Angels. May not be wrong... it gives you a really solid answer in counter wars, counters basically all non-Abrupt Decay removal, has plenty of targets in most combo match ups, and hits Dig Through Time. Sounds like it could be worth a shot as a 1 or 2-of.
Legacy
Vintage
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