And DTT is great at recouping the CD from Hymn. The difference is, we're playing ours proactively and they'll be following it up with the DTT, mitigating the disruption element by grabbing what they need. DRS and Decay are the reasons to play BUG for sure, Decay especially with all the CBs and CotVs running around.Originally Posted by btm10
And I wouldn't count on Hymn to minimize the amount of tokens they make. They just have to chain cantrips together, which happens all too often often.
To go back to the list I posted before, ended up 4-0 at my LGS beating Miracles, Reanimator, Aggro Loam and DnT. Oddly, Reanimator was the toughest match!
H was totally right, I never got to cast Notion Thief, but he got Cliqued away once so did his job...kind of
Dark Confidants and TNN were MVPs by far, Bob especially. With so much cheap/free countermagic to protect him it's very easy to just run away with a game through his CA. TNN won the Aggro Loam and DnT matchups almost single handedly.
Last edited by Whitefaces; 09-03-2015 at 07:15 AM.
Glad to hear your results were good. I play Notion Thief in Vintage, because there the fast mana means you can get him out quickly where he can make a difference (more often).To go back to the list I posted before, ended up 4-0 at my LGS beating Miracles, Reanimator, Aggro Loam and DnT. Oddly, Reanimator was the toughest match!
H was totally right, I never got to cast Notion Thief, but he got Cliqued away once so did his job...kind of
I have been running two Blue Elemental Blasts in my board more often than not. It's good before a Pyromancer, still fine after. It also helps a good deal versus things like Blood Moon, or just versus Burn in general.
I was going to switch decks for this weekend, because I thought the meta would be overloaded on fair decks, but a friend told me that the meta at this store is much more combo, so back here I go. Going to try a 3 Hymn, 2 Thoughtsieze split and go back to 1 Dig in the main. Do you guys think also having 1 Tasigur would be too many Delve cards though?
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
I'd just run a second Dig. And it's no REB, but Dispel hits Dig and wins counter wars.
OK, 2 Dig, 0 Tasigur. I admit, I'm a little worried about going back to running just 12 creatures, I've been on 13-14 for so long now, but my Delver flips have been terrible of late, costing me numerous games, so it's a give-and-take.
On Dispel, I actually bought a foil one at Eternal Weekend just because of that,
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
I am actually surprised that Dispel doesn't see more Legacy play. It counters most of the format's removal in Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares, and Dismember (which has been on the rise). It is real trump in counter wars. Now that we are in this Dig Through Time era, it serves a third purpose in that it takes care of that as well. Back when we were in the Treasure Cruise era, some of us were using Dimir Charm as it lined up well with Cruise, Miracles cards, and numerous cards out of combo decks (Show and Tell, Infernal Tutor etc.). I think Dispel fills a similar role, but is likely better seeing as how this format normally operates at instant speed.On Dispel, I actually bought a foil one at Eternal Weekend just because of that,
Legacy
Grixis Delver
Vintage
Mono Mentor
Team Leovold
If Dispel were a consideration, I'd just run Flusterstorm instead. The times where you want to counter a Sorcery will far outweigh the times your opponent can pay for the Fluster. There are simply way too many important Sorceries in Legacy to play something like Dispel in my opinion.
I also don't agree with Dispel filling a similar role as Dimir Charm (ignoring the mana cost), and certainly not better. Charm was fine (but not great) as it countered Cruise, a very problematic card, but also snagged game ending cards. What instants are more important than Show and Tell, Entreat the Angels, Infernal Tutor etc? Cunning Wish I suppose if they have Omni, but then you want to Fluster the SnT.
So, I've been advised of the possible meta contents of the shop I am going to. Of course, this is hypothetical, it's what a friend of mine faced last time he was there.
Storm (mostly ANT, but probably at least one TES)
Afinity
MUD
Esper Blade
Elves
Cheerios
Dredge
Goblins
Also probable:
Lands
Burn (Mono-R and U/R)
I am trying to fit way too many things into my sideboard. My build is the 20 Lands, 4 Sea, 1 Trop, 2 Bayou. 12 creatures, 2 Digs, 3 Hymn, 2 Thoughtsieze in an attempt to fight some of these combo decks maindeck.
My sideboard looks like:
1 Sylvan Library (Blade and other StP decks)
2 Surgical Extractions (Dredge, Lands)
1 Garfdigger's Cage (Dredge, Elves)
1 Null Rod (MUD, Blade, Affinity, Miracles (if any show))
2 Disfigure (Affinity,, Elves, Goblins, Burn)
1 Krosan Grip (Blade, MUD, Affinity, Miracles)
1 Dispel (Dig decks, Storm, Burn)
2 Blue Elemental Blast (Burn, Goblins, decks with REBs)
1 Pernicious Deed (Affinity, MUD, Miracles, Elves, Goblins, even possibly Dredge)
2 Golgari Charm (Affinity, Elves, Goblins)
1 ??? (Maybe Pithing Needle, maybe Flusterstorm?)
Open to any ideas.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
I don't see why you would need Blue elemental blast. The things you are countering with it are nearly ALL instants. except maybe for a guide and lava spike. If you have that much read, go chill.
I think he has blue blast to also help the goblins matchup.
Yeah, it's kind of a pet card, no doubt the weakest in the sideboard. However, when you catch someone with it, it's really great.
I'll need to look it all over tonight and tomorrow before I go Saturday. I'm still not sure exactly what I want in that last spot, but it may well end up being a Vendilion Clique.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Do you guys feel this deck is dropping out of DTB. The meta is made to fight decks like this. Its been pretty difficult
I think that has more to do with fewer people playing it than it does a fundamental weakness with the deck. I also think that more people playing Stifle is compounding the few-players problem to some extent.
As for H's deck, I like Maelstrom Pulse more than Deed in the board. It's less symmetrical and kills MUD stuff like Lodestone Golem more easily while being almost as good againsy tokens. It also gets planeswalkers.
Well, since we lack an efficient answer to Dig, people are looking more at Red than Green at the moment.
Pulse versus Deed is really tough. Both are great versus tokens, but Deed can sweep up a board, which is important versus things like Ravager and the like. I'm not sure, may end up being a "game time decision."
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
I know at my local store I cannot play this deck and expect to do well.
I'm seeing more and more Gurmag Anglers/Tasigurs, which makes Decay look really silly. A lot of locals are playing stuff like chalice/prison or 8 moon painter's servant.
Played against a really sweet reanimator list last night running Gurmag Anglers and Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in the main, hard to answer all those lines while still being vigilant on the graveyard strategy.
I've started playing a more midrange/control version of BUG to some great success, although I'm not sure how it would fair in a larger event.
Legacy is in a very weird place right now, mostly because of DTT.
What xdo u think about life from the loam in this deck guys?
I've run it before, but my meta can have up to three lands players. I don't think I'd play it in a wide open meta.
Got second place in a legacy event following a WMCQ this weekend.
Decklist:
4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 Dark Confidant
2 TNN
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Decay
4 Daze
3 Stifle
4 FoW
3 Spell Pierce
4 Strand
4 Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Trop
3 Sea
SB:
2 Dread of Night
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Flusterstorm
1 Null Road
2 Winter Orb
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Jitte
1 Illness in the Ranks
1 Submerge
R1 vs Enlightened Tutor Miracles (Win 2-0)
G1 otp. I land a DRS and Goyf and manage to control the game enough for them
to eventually grind him out. He played Enlightened Tutor when he was on a
two turn clock, for what I assumed to be RiP. I had a stifle to stop the EtB
trigger, but he fetched up a Counterbalance which I was more than fine with
and FoWd his Terminus.
SBing:
-4 Daze
-2 Goyf (expecting RiP)
+2 Winter Orb
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Null Rod
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Dread of Night (hedging against Mentor)
G2 otd. was land go from both of us for the first four turns. He eventually
tapped out for a top and paid for a Spell Pierce. This allowed me to resolve
Winter Orb followed up by a TNN. The fish got to work and I played tempo
spells/baited top activations when he had CB with useless spells to tap his
lands. I got a needle down naming Helm too, so wasn't too concerned about
the combo as I had flusterstorms for Wear//Tear or Disenchant. TNN is a fun
and interactive magic card.
R2 vs Mentor Miracles (Win 2-1)
G1 otd. I've seen him playing Miracles with Entreat before, but T4 he
dropped Mentor off Cavern and Ponderd, taking me by surprise. I made a
massive punt here and attempted to Daze the Ponder before decaying the
Mentor. He FoWd the Daze leaving him hellbent, but importantly getting a
second trigger off the mentor. This made all the difference and he found
enough cantrips/stp to deal with my goyf and dark confidant and attack for
lethal with the monks in short order.
SBing:
-4 Daze
-3 Stifle
-1 Spell Pierce
+3 flusterstorm
+2 Dread of Night
+2 Winter Orb
+1 Vendilion Clique
I don't remember too much of the next two games as they went on for a long
time, both very close. I got a Dread of Night into play both games, and
would have certainly lost without it. This was a very tough match, props to
my opponent who played well.
R3 vs MUD (Win 2-0)
G1 otp. I play a T1 Delver, exactly what I want except I have no daze or
FoW, I just hope my pierce is good for T2. He leads with Tomb > Monolith >
3sphere. Shit! Delver flips to a daze, I play a fetch, attack and have to
pass. He plays a Metalworker, which gets decayed on my turn 3. I only had
the single decay at that point, and as tempting as the 3sphere was, bolt the
big bird! He plays a lodestone and passes. I then land a goyf and wasteland
him. Goyf is a 4/5, I'm happy to trade with the golem. He instead plays a
second golem and doesn't attack. I ponder on my turn, growing the goyf to
5/6 and find a second decay for the 3sphere. He plays a lightning greaves on
his next turn and has no other play, I decay the 3sphere eot. This gives me
some breathing room and Delver + DRS finally get there. I made one huuuge
punt which should have cost me the game. He's on 2 life, with a forgemaster
in play. I have a DRS. I go for the kill, and in response he activates it
leaving only a greaves in play. I forgot they have Platinum Empirion, idiot!
I brainstorm in resp, and find a Stifle like a lucksack. Definitely should
have lost that game, but got lucky.
SBing:
+2 Winter Orb
+1 Null Rod
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Vendilion Clique
-4 Ponder
-1 Stifle
G2 otd. He has a slightly less explosive draw and plays a glimmerpost T1. I
have a delver (which doesn't flip the first 2-3 turns) and a daze for
protection. Next turn he plays a staff with a tomb, I don't daze as I'm not
afraid of it at this stage as I have decays in the deck and a Winter Orb in
hand. He lands a forgemaster next turn through a cavern, so no daze for me.
I land a needle naming it and a Winter Orb and keep chipping with my delver.
Two turns later he drops a second forgemaster. A very strange sequence of
plays then happens where I draw every other delver in the deck, 3 in a row.
I also don't draw a third land (I have trop and waste in play) or an instant
or sorcery, so my flipped delver is racing with the forgemasters while he's
using the staff to tap it/gain life, depending on the mana available because
of Winter Orb. The Delvers never actually flip, but they chump block enough
so the one flipped one finally gets in for lethal.
R4 vs DnT (Win 2-1)
G1 otd. This is a rather amusing one, despite being rather uneventful. He
has more guys than I do, and I don't find removal before mother of runes
takes over the game. What makes it makes it amusing is I played a
desperation brainstorm into a Spirit of the Labyrinth (no cards in hand at
least), and the turn before he's attacking for lethal he Revokers his own
Jitte as it's the only card he can think of that can steal the game. Neither
actually mattered, but we were on table 1 with people watching, so it was
pretty hilarious.
SBing:
+2 Dread of Night
+1 Null Rod
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Vendilion Clique
-3 Spell Pierce
-3 Stifle
G2 otp. I open with a delver. He then wastelands me, ok! Delver flips and I
land a DRS. He has plains, go. DRS powers out a TNN which is joined by the
second next turn after he plays a Thalia leaving me carefree of something
like Cataclysm. It's over very quickly.
G3 otd. I keep a one lander, but with delver and ponder. He starts with a
vial which I fow and play delver on my turn. He plays a mom and passes.
Delver doesn't flip, I ponder and find no lands > shuffle. Draw a non land.
He draws a wasteland for the turn and takes advantage of this. I then don't
draw another land for 4 turns, but FoW a Serra Avenger and his clock is a
Thalia after sending my bug to a field. He also has two ports at the ready for any lands I draw, not looking
good! I eventually draw a couple of lands below 10 life. The final crucial
turn is I'm on 3, with a sea, a watse and 2 trops. He has Thalia, 2x mom and
plays a flickerwisp leaving up a port and a plains, and targets another
plains. If he targets the second port here he wins, but he was afraid I'd
waste it for some reason. I take this opportunity to play for my outs and
waste the port eot. I get lucksack moment number 2 and draw one of my Dread
of Nights, land it though the only black source (which should have been
ported if he played right) and then ride a Clique and Jitte to victory.
My friend is also 4-0 and we can double ID into top 8, we're 2nd and 3rd
in the standings.
QF vs Grixis Delver. One of the matchups I wanted to avoid. (Win 2-1)
G1 otp. Again, I'll have to apologise as there were so many exchanges I don't remember these games too well. We both end up hellbent, he played one DTT which I fowed and we end up in a racing situation. He has a sea, volc and trop out though so I'm able to use Stifle on a DRS activation and Pierce on a bolt to win the race with a TNN.
SBing:
+1 Vendilion Clique
+3 Flusterstorm
+1 Nihil Spellbomb
+1 Jitte
+1 Illness in the Ranks
-4 Daze
-3 Stifle
G2 otd. I mulligan to 6 and keep a threat heavy hand with no cantrips, he shoves a T2 Pyromancer and follows it up with wastelands. I'm overwhelmed by tokens as I can't find a decay early enough or Illness.
SBing for G3:
+4 Daze
-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Nihil Spellbomb
-2 Spell Pierce
G3 otp. I mulligan to 5 and keep a 1 lander with delver, ponder, goyf, sea and flusterstorm. He bolts my delver, then wastelands me. I draw a wasteland and keep him off red for a couple of turns but start to get behind. I end up hellbent with a DRS in play vs a Delver and Tasigur freshly played, but I'm ahead on life as he's played 3 probes this game before ripping my hand apart with therapies. I draw a TNN but he's been holding up his single volc every turn, signalling a blast. I wait on the TNN taking the risk he doesn't find another therapy. Tasigur hits a few times until I find a wasteland, waste his volc first main and land the fish second main. Coupled with the DRS he's dead in 2 turns. Phew!
Semifinal. My opponent is on storm, what I consider to be a good matchup with this build. Unfortunately he has a train to catch so has to leave, but we decide to split the top 4 anyway, so he concedes me into the final.
Final vs Grixis control. (Loss 1-2)
G1 otp. I have the nuts. T1 trop, delver with daze backup. T2 flipping the delver with a FoW and playing waste > goyf. T3 double waste him and he concedes.
SBing:
+1 Vendilion Clique
+3 Flusterstorm
+1 Nihil Spellbomb
+1 Jitte
+1 Illness in the Ranks
-4 Daze
-3 Stifle
G2 otd. I drop Illness in the Ranks T1, getting a 'shit, how do I win' reaction from my opponent. I assumed Pyromancer was his main win condition and would have SBed out Force of Wills and played Illness over a T1 Delver as I'd seen Spell Pierce G1. Maybe a missplay. The game goes super long and he outgrinds me with 3 DTT, Snapcaster mage and Kolaghan's Command all getting 2-for-1s.
SBing for G3:
+4 Daze
+3 Stifle
-1 Jitte
-1 Vendilion Clique
-3 Spell Pierce
-2 Decay
I have a weaker hand this game and get outground again. I have Illness which drags the game longer as he can't overwhelm me with Pyromancer, but the 2-for-1s from DTT, K Command and Snapcaster are too much. I made a couple of missplays as I was tired too, but this feels like a tough matchup.
Ended up getting a Judge Wasteland, FNM Brainstorm and normal Wasteland for prizes which was nice. As with all events I've played in, TNN has been performing exceptionally time and time again. He's slightly too clunky to go up to three I think, but has the potential to win games you have no business even being in. Dread of Nights were key from the sideboard too for DnT and the Mentor Miracles deck.
Using Strands and Tarns instead of other fetches was pretty relevant too. It caught two people off guard, thinking I was on Miracles, and I stifled/pierced/dazed them.
Hey All,
Returning to legacy after a break, as I've been playing several Modern tournaments these past months. Anyways, I've been playing Team for many years and coming back into it seems things have shifted a bit. I've tried reading up on the past few pages, but can a few of you summarize what you think Team's worst MU's are today? I see that Grixis Pyromancer is a thing. I saw that Steve Mann made a pretty sweet list to a 2/620 that seems to beat-up on Grixis Pryo (3 MB Dismembers, nice...)
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17951&iddeck=135444
I would vote for these: Imperial Painter, any Blood Moon Stompy deck, Lands, Merfolk, Death & Taxes.
Painter and other Moon decks: Getting ambushed by a Turn 1 Blood Moon when you don't have a Force of Will is game over. Fortunately, the dominant version of Delver right now is the Grixis list that beat Stephen Mann, and that list can still win in such a scenario via Young Pyromancers and burn spells, so Blood Moon decks aren't prominent right now because they don't match up well against the top decks. If there are a lot of Lands players in your area, then there will probably be more Blood Moons.
Lands: Lands is easier if you play Liliana of the Veil or Diabolic Edict to give you an out to a fast Marit Lage, but having no basics means you can get locked by recurring Wastelands. Having a hand with Delvers loses to recurring Punishing Fire, whereas having a hand with Tarmogoyfs loses to Mazes, so there are several ways to lose that matchup, and you can only hope your hand matches up well. Surgical Extraction is strong, as is Pithing Needle on Thespian's Stage. The RG version is extremely greedy, so you'll win some games by aggressively countering Mox Diamond and Wastelanding any colored mana. You definitely have to pick your spots, though. If you play Thoughtseize or Gitaxian Probe, that can make such judgment calls much easier.
Merfolk: Merfolk varies depending on the list. The dominant list right now runs Chalice of the Void, True-Name Nemesis, and Cavern of Souls. Chalice isn't much of a threat since we usually have access to Abrupt Decays, but I would use them on Aether Vial, lords, or Jitte. Golgari Charm or Marsh Casualties out of the sideboard is pretty key. Engineered Plague is also solid. That card is seeing some more play as a flexible answer to Monastery Mentor, but it's really good here. The plan is just to race with Delvers, the more the better. Sometimes you can prey on their mana due to their curve being higher now than it used to be, and you don't need to play around Daze because most lists have dropped that card due to a lower Island count.
Death & Taxes: D&T is difficult due to our few ways to interact with Batterskull. Lists with Mirran Crusader are the toughest. I think the hardest variant is probably Imperial Taxes, although I haven't played against that version in an actual match. Imperial Taxes has access to Magus of the Moon via Imperial Recruiter, and they can drop it in with Cavern of Souls and/or Vial while otherwise posing the same threats in Batterskull and Mirran Crusader. The good news is Vryn Wingmare has been nudging the Crusaders out. Rest in Peace is seeing more play due to Dig Through Time being everywhere, so I would plan for it out of any deck with white in it. Dread of Night is the best sideboard card here, and I also really like Sylvan Library vs. any deck with Swords to Plowshares.
I played a slightly innovative new take in a daily event today:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
2 Dimir Charm
2 Dig Through Time
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
Sideboard:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Plague
1 Life from the Loam
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sultai Charm
Miracles: 2-0
Deathblade: 0-2
RUG Delver: 0-2
Couldn't beat batterskull in round 2 and also got manascrewed, round 3 I couldn't answer nimble mongeese and he found all the removal he needed over the course of several turns while I tried to mount an offensive (both games basically played out this way).
I dunno, I was trying the list above because there is a local merfolk player and this seemed good vs it, but I might just be trying to beat a dead horse. I might just jump back on the Grixis Delver bandwagon and stop trying to innovate sub-par Sultai lists.
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