[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[eldub]

This thread has died lately, but the deck continues to put up results worldwide. I also believe there is room to improve moving forward. I've had a few opportunities to play and keep detailed statistics for various configurations in the last month and I've noted a few things:

1) My game 1 win% was lower than I would like (44%), but bolstered by very solid post-board win%. Lots of matches won in three games. Poor G1 win% specifically vs control (Miracles, Pile, anything winning with JTMS) and fast Combo (OmniShow, Storm, Burn). The deck also felt too clunky vs Grixis Delver.

2) The games I lost, especially game 1, were with spells in my hand I was unable to cast. Typically this would be an over-abundance of 2+CMC cards, or FoW in hand with no pitch.

3) Statistically poor Delver flip% and FoW fuel with the traditional 20 land + CA-focused top-end (Lili's, Sylvan Library, Jace, etc).

I started on a mission to find a configuration that was the most proactive, disruptive, and aggressive for G1:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
3 Leovold

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Fatal Push
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Hydroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Bitterblossom
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Toxic Deluge

Stats:
Blue cards: 23
Flips for Delver: 26
Lands: 19
0/1CMC: 30
2 CMC: 8 (including 2x Tombstalker)
3 CMC: 3

I know this list looks a bit odd, and the majority of users here consider it blasphemy to play less then 2 Abrupt Decay in the main, but the card has honestly under-performed for me in general since the Top ban and leads to clunky draws. I consider them a 'necessary evil' to have in the 75 to answer problematic non-creature permanents and have been happy with 2x in the SB.

3x Leovold is probably the most dramatic departure from traditional lists, but they continue to overperform. He provides a few key elements to the strategy:
- An additional beater as Tarmogoyf's power has dwindled a bit
- An additional FoW pitch
- A strong and impactful top-end threat vs Combo & Control
- More "nut-draw" potential (multiple seize/hymn early into Leovold is simply unbeatable for many decks)

Feel free to give this a whirl if you're looking for a slightly different take on the archetype.

[Stevestamopz]

Compared to the BUG-Leo decks which have the heinous plan of Discard -> Leovold -> True-Name-Nemesis, instead of Discard -> Leovold -> Delver, what does this version do better and why should we play Delver instead of just more abortion-esque 3 mana creatures like TNN and Leo?

Just playing devil's advocate here, your list seems sweet - though 19 lands does seem a tad greedy.

[eldub]

I tested with BUG Leo (Jacob Wilson's list), but it was still pretty slow vs combo for my taste and if you drew the push/decay/TNN half of your deck you simply couldn't close games quick enough. It definitely has a strong G1 vs blue/fair decks which I liked. Post-board your entire gameplan revolves around threats which are answered by Pyroblast which became a real challenge.

That deck opened my eyes to Mindbreak Trap + Flusterstorm which really helped a ton post-board in your tougher matchups.

Long live Tombstalker/Goyf. Sometimes you just gotta beat 'em down.

I've been comfortable with 19 land in this version. Lower avg cmc, no 4-drops, no UU spells.

[Blink]

Compared to the BUG-Leo decks which have the heinous plan of Discard -> Leovold -> True-Name-Nemesis, instead of Discard -> Leovold -> Delver, what does this version do better and why should we play Delver instead of just more abortion-esque 3 mana creatures like TNN and Leo?

Just playing devil's advocate here, your list seems sweet - though 19 lands does seem a tad greedy.

I can’t speak to “eldub’s” list but I have been jamming a 4 delver 4 deathrite 4 goyf 2 leovold threat package for a little over a month. Previous to this I ran Grixis delver for numerous years (Around the time Treasure Cruise got banned and deathrite got added). So most of my perspective will be comparing it to Grixis because I have not played BUG midrange.
BUG delver’s strength comes from very strong and straightforward lines that quickly outpace our opponent with intensity that’s comparable to being hit by a dump truck.
- Let’s start with Goyf, yes; he is susceptible to removal but it brings something to the table that other threats in its category (Gurmag, Tombstalker, Batterskull, Reality smasher) can’t easily replicate, its ease to cast. There is a significant number of games were I’ve won the game because I had multiple Goyfs that I’ve consecutively cast. BUG Delvers 0-60 times are incredible; the only threats that rival its speed are young pyromancer and reality smasher. So why play Goyf when the reach of bolt and young pyro is combined in a hyper aggressive package or you can consistently come in turn 3 with a hasty 5/5? The hate that’s best suited for this age of legacy hits these strategies hard, in fact we are equipped with the best of it. To defend against control strategies -1/-1 effects are readily used. They hit true-name, strix, snapcaster and the majority of white-based control. This has little to no bearing on Goyf but fortunately decimates Pyromancer. We commonly have multiple variants of this effect on our board. Reality Smasher requires a more premeditated solution from BUG Delever but a very manageable solution of mana denial from a large portion of the format. When designing our deck we can increase our percentages of creating a 5/6 Goyf to outclass Smasher. The notable ways are main boarding planswalkers and enchantments and start early with lines that get them to the yard (I currently have successful results bringing in “dead weight” from the board). The other is putting an emphasis on disrupting an artifact on there side of the board. Instant, Sorcery, Land and Creature will naturally be in the graveyard for this matchup. Another method of beating smasher is to pinch their mana with wasteland and get far enough ahead you can out pace them. If we can identify our opponent’s strategy turn 1-2 with the use of filtering we can out threat most aggressive matchups in the format. That strategy is very effective right now, to a point where jund looks appealing.
- Leovold is incredible. He is always relevant. Mainly my strategy is to go as fast as possible in the first 5 turns then lean on Leovold to keep your opponents from pulling ahead. You thrive in a deficient environment so against midrange/control in the later stages of the game Leovold will shore up a matchup that plays more resource heavy, higher quality cards. Against combo he comes in after you have effectively handicapped their hand quality with Hymn and Thoughtsieze. Leovold keeps them from can-tripping into their outs. Leovold also pitch’s to FOW, I found this to be a big con to Stalker and Gurmag. In the combo matchup when FOW is most important loosing a cantrip or delver to force is backbreaking so having the option to choose Leovold is significant.
- Delver compliments this list perfectly. There’s not as much emphasis put on it as previous Delver variants as this list doesn’t have the “protect the queen” mentality but in general it lets us do everything we want in our build. It provides a fast clock so our low CMC cards stay relevant over the duration of the game. It punishes decks that have stretched its removal to the point they loose consistency. If a delver is unanswered by turn 5-6 the game is likely over. It priorities our most important land in underground sea, come in play turn 1. It ups the blue count by 4 so running Goyf isn’t such a liability. It adds to our total number of game closing threats. Although our creatures can be killed by spot removal we run enough to naturally draw threats in a timely manner so games don’t go to long and fall out of reach. Without bolt to finish games this is incredibly important.

True name has a ligament argument in the right build but by my estimation its relatively slow as a clock and moves us slightly out of the our wheel house. True-name is great at forcing through the last few points of damage if we let the opponent stabilize and establish but BUG delver doesn’t want to be in that position. Its choice of disruption reinforces this concept but that’s for another night.

To “eldub” I see you went with thoughtsieze main. In your testing have you ran into these potential problems. 1) what I call the stifle dilemma. That is have to high of a percentage of playing two copies of a card that is most effective turn one. For example having a deathrite/delver and a thoughtsieze turn one. 2) To many times my thoughtsieze has run into a brainstorm. Is that where we want to be game 1? Trying to cast a timely thoughtseize?


I apologize for the poor grammar, poor writing and for mostly stating the obvious. Cheers!

[eldub]

To “eldub” I see you went with thoughtsieze main. In your testing have you ran into these potential problems. 1) what I call the stifle dilemma. That is have to high of a percentage of playing two copies of a card that is most effective turn one. For example having a deathrite/delver and a thoughtsieze turn one. 2) To many times my thoughtsieze has run into a brainstorm. Is that where we want to be game 1? Trying to cast a timely thoughtseize?

Thoughtseize is not a card I want to cast turn 1 in BUG Delver. I'm looking to generate tempo early. Best T1 plays are DRS > Delver > Pass with Fatal Push available > Wasteland > Thoughtseize > Ponder. I'm using TS more as a 'universal answer' that I cast to disrupt my opponent before their "critical turn". If I'm playing a JTMS deck, I'm trying to cast Thoughtseize right before they get to untap and play their 4th land (having Daze in hand may push this back a whole turn). Think of it as a proactive Abrupt Decay.

The other obvious use is to pave a path for something like Tombstaker or Leo. I' generally tend to cast Thoughtseize starting on turn 2 or 3.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Deathrite is generally the correct play if both are in your hand, but thoughtseize does generate tempo. A turn 1 thoughtseize taking their next turn's best play is how it does that. It is definitely a better play on the play than the draw, however.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[Blink]

Deathrite is generally the correct play if both are in your hand, but thoughtseize does generate tempo. A turn 1 thoughtseize taking their next turn's best play is how it does that. It is definitely a better play on the play than the draw, however.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

That was the conflict I was referring to.. Turn 1 deathrite is a reality that should be expected in any meta. So in that case would you thoughtseize the potential 3 mana threat ( leovold, true name, etc) there laying turn 2 or do we lay our own deathrite (being in the draw).

[Talo]

This thread has died lately, but the deck continues to put up results worldwide. I also believe there is room to improve moving forward. I've had a few opportunities to play and keep detailed statistics for various configurations in the last month and I've noted a few things:

1) My game 1 win% was lower than I would like (44%), but bolstered by very solid post-board win%. Lots of matches won in three games. Poor G1 win% specifically vs control (Miracles, Pile, anything winning with JTMS) and fast Combo (OmniShow, Storm, Burn). The deck also felt too clunky vs Grixis Delver.

2) The games I lost, especially game 1, were with spells in my hand I was unable to cast. Typically this would be an over-abundance of 2+CMC cards, or FoW in hand with no pitch.

3) Statistically poor Delver flip% and FoW fuel with the traditional 20 land + CA-focused top-end (Lili's, Sylvan Library, Jace, etc).

I started on a mission to find a configuration that was the most proactive, disruptive, and aggressive for G1:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
3 Leovold

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Fatal Push
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Hydroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Bitterblossom
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Toxic Deluge

Stats:
Blue cards: 23
Flips for Delver: 26
Lands: 19
0/1CMC: 30
2 CMC: 8 (including 2x Tombstalker)
3 CMC: 3

I know this list looks a bit odd, and the majority of users here consider it blasphemy to play less then 2 Abrupt Decay in the main, but the card has honestly under-performed for me in general since the Top ban and leads to clunky draws. I consider them a 'necessary evil' to have in the 75 to answer problematic non-creature permanents and have been happy with 2x in the SB.

3x Leovold is probably the most dramatic departure from traditional lists, but they continue to overperform. He provides a few key elements to the strategy:
- An additional beater as Tarmogoyf's power has dwindled a bit
- An additional FoW pitch
- A strong and impactful top-end threat vs Combo & Control
- More "nut-draw" potential (multiple seize/hymn early into Leovold is simply unbeatable for many decks)

Feel free to give this a whirl if you're looking for a slightly different take on the archetype.

How has Bitterblossom been in the SB? What matches are you bringing it in against? I expect Miracles, but have you noticed it performing well anywhere else?

I have been testing a few decks for SCG Worcester and am down to two: BUG Delver or Grixis Delver.

I've been looking at Hans Jacob Goddik's list: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18312&d=313628&f=LE with maybe -1 Liliana, -1 Sea and +1 Leovold (or Goyf), +1 Ponder

[Bam Bam]

Hey guys,
Been playing bug midrange for a while, and decided to go delver. Went with hj's eternal list, -1 tombstalker -1 LTLH, +1 ponder, +1 LOTV. I've had both tombstalkers in my hand way too many times. Thinking about trying to find room for another leo. I've always been pretty sketchy about the low number of blue cards and Leo would up that ideally. Thoughts?

Also, anyone know any good streamers or matches to watch? Hope to get this thread active again!

[ironclad8690]

Edit:

Here are some cool matches. Funny enough I had a hard time finding BUG vs anything besides Storm:

Saito vs Paul Cheon (BUG vs ANT)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YjTRcWlUyA

Javier Dominguez vs Martin Muller (BUG Vs ANT)
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/153904442?t=01m12s

Bryant Cook vs Hans Jacob Goddick (TES vs BUG)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5c-lmAG5F8

Bruce Chau vs Hans Jacob Goddick (D&T vs BUG)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vIeb9cNg7I

Javier Dominguez vs Maxime Gilles (BUG vs Miracles)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvbDNxbb14

[Ixbpoqdxl]

Three Team America lists in the latest challenge, all with a bit of a different take on the top-end.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...nge-2018-03-05

I've had both tombstalkers in my hand way too many times.

LTLH helps facilitate Tombstalker by clearing the way of Strixes and annoying stuff (+1) and increasing your delve (-2) so you can cast them reliably. It is a big deckbuilding investment for the payoff of a really big, and hard to remove, beater. I've been pretty meh on Tombstalker lately, but I play against Pile and DnT more often than other decks.

Also, I've been playing without maindeck planeswalkers for a bit and trying to go under control decks rather than fighting for mid-lategame. It's been pretty okay, but it might be more of a reflection on my local meta rather than what's actually a good choice of cards.

EDIT: Also, those vids are good---it's hard to find recent stuff since SCG stopped weekly Legacy weekends 3 (?) years ago.

[ironclad8690]

Yeah I experiment with cutting the planeswalkers too but I am always conflicted about the slots. Lili has always been my out to True-Name, so it's like do I put edict there? Do I just run my own True-name and rework the mana? I always give up and go back to the stock config.

[Bam Bam]

I've been pretty happy with 2 Leo, 1 tombstalker and 1 LOTV. Im at 22 blue cards now for fow.

I'm pondering going down to 19 lands. Does anyone run 19 and feel good about it?

Also thank you for the videos!

[Ixbpoqdxl]

It depends on the number of 3+ cmc cards you have main and side. I think the best land setup is 20 lands, especially if you really want to land Leo on 3. If you have sideboard Jace, playing 20 is probably necessary.

3 Misty // 3 Delta // 3 Verdant
4 USea // 2 Bayou // 1 Trop
4 Waste.

19 if you have a lower curve of threats, or if you're greedy.

[toffee]

Hi mates, I'm new with Team America / BUG Midrange and I'm playing this decklist in Italy, with some top8 in my local tournaments.

4 polluted delta
4 verdant catacombs
1 misty rainforest
4 wasteland
3 underground sea
2 bayou
1 tropical island

4 deathrite shaman
4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
2 tombstalker

2 liliana of the veil

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 daze
4 force of will
4 hymn to tourach
3 abrupt decay
2 fatal push

SIDEBOARD
3 bitterblossom
2 thoughtseize
2 diabolic edict
2 surgical extraction
2 flusterstorm
1 liliana, the last hope
1 golgari charm
1 marsh casualties
1 toxic deluge

3x bitterblossom: this is an awesome card...the reason why to play 3of is the best possibility to play it in the early game, and win the game...
2x tombstalker: I want to have an high possibility to play it in the mid-game...1of isn't too much.
2x llveil MD and 1x llhope SB: I think that llveil is better maindeck against a lot of matchups, instead of llhope. But I would ask to you the reasons to split 1/1 maindeck...I've never tested together MD yet.

[Ixbpoqdxl]

Hi mates, I'm new with Team America / BUG Midrange and I'm playing this decklist in Italy, with some top8 in my local tournaments.

2x llveil MD and 1x llhope SB: I think that llveil is better maindeck against a lot of matchups, instead of llhope. But I would ask to you the reasons to split 1/1 maindeck...I've never tested together MD yet.

I've felt the opposite lately, to be honest.

Veil is great against critical mass combo decks (Storm, Sneak, etc.), and decent in creature matches, whereas Last Hope is better against the matches where we face difficulty (Pile at times, DnT, Elves). Last Hope has a lot of merits as a sideboard card, but Legacy has become really creature-oriented with a bunch of annoying x-1s.

Veil is really synergistic with the Hymn game-plan, but how much added help does TA need for combo match-ups? Hymn + Goyf is a lot to overcome, almost every sideboard has Surgical + Fluster.

It's a meta call which you prefer, and having played Veil for the past few years, I've been unimpressed and I like how Last Hope clears blockers and lets you push damage in a deck with no reach.

[Amazingxkcd]

Top 8 at GP Madrid, interesting choices of adding in Dead Weight as a way to boost goyfs while offering cheap removal.

Thoughts on this build?

2 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

1 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tombstalker

1 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
1 Thoughtseize
1 Dead Weight
2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Dead Weight
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Fatal Push
1 Golgari Charm
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Life from the Loam
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize

[eldub]

Certainly an excellent build to maximize Tarmogoyf. This is likely very strong against the fair matchups and specifically seems strong vs Eldrazi. It’s always an interesting line to walk between diversifying card types for Goyf and keeping your Instant/Sorceries maximized for Delver.

A total of 1 Abrupt Decay in the 75 is something to note. With the full play set of Goyf you need to be cognizant of your curve and overloading two drops. I’m guessing that’s why a Thoughtseize made its way into the main as well.

Which three drops to run to run between both Lilis and Leo is always a tough choice.

[Adibou1er]

Hi guys,

Last weekend I attended the french legacy nationals with Team America and the list below :

9 fetchs
4 waste
3 u sea
2 bayou
1 trop
1 swamp

4 drs
4 delver
3 tarmo
2 tombstalker
1 leovold

4 HTT
4 BS
4 ponder
4 fow
3 daze
1 spell pierce
3 fatal push
2 decay

1 liliana of the veil
1 liliana the last hope

-- side --

2 surgical
2 thoughtseize
2 fluster
2 diabolic edict
2 golgari charm
1 sylvan library
1 jace TMS
1 bitterblossom
1 loam
1 maelstrom pulse

On friday, I went 5-0 (facing Grixis Delver, BUG Natural Order, Miracles, Punishing Maverick and Burn), and got the qualification for next year's finals.
On saturday (97 players) I 3-3 droped but this tournament is not really relevant since I played it for fun, I had to leave early to go to a party.
Then for the main event on sunday I finished 14h out of 85 players with a 5-2 record.

If I would change something, it would try to include invasive surgery in the sideboard to help against Lands for instance.
I would also cut a fetchland, since I did some fulls during the weekend.
The swamp is imho mandatory to compete vs Lands (hello Ghost Quarter) and Bloodmoon stompy, very popular over here in Paris, France.

[Agrippa91]

What do you guys think about the pile matchup? Specifically I'd like to know how good you find lotv, leovold, tnn and delve creatures md. What about the sideboard? Do you think Bitterblossom is better than library?