That list is so nice, but in a determined meta. Good vs miracles, combo and blue decks and weak vs creature decks, specially eldrazis and dnt (a nightmare)
Goodbye Disfigure, welcome Push. I see it as a nice maindeck choice.Originally Posted by wcm8
I had pretty good results in the last couple tourneys with this list:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
2 Disfigure (Fatal Push asap)
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Sylvan Library
4 Force of Will
1 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Dread of Night
1 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Golgari Charm
1 Winter Orb
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
At the moment I'm playing in a not-that-blue metagame and therefore thinking to change some SB cards. Still strugglin' against D&T, I see a switch between Flusterstorm and Null Rod / Thoughtseize. Comments are welcome.
TEAM MtG Berlin
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
You know, I just had the thought, since Fatal Push has me thinking of BUG again, of the following things:
First, Delver can sometimes be the worst creature in the deck, because making the Miracles match-up better, say by running creatures 13-16, makes Delver worse. Our tempo plan (especially if we are not on a Delver/Stifle/Wasteland draw) has always been what could be characterized as poor and in reality we are more of a mid-range deck that can assume a Tempo role if our draw pans out that way.
Consequently, I still think that Liliana of the Veil is actually a pretty good card for fighting Miracles (while also addressing some issues of dealing with big, dumb Delve guys) as long as you are able to keep pressure in concert with upticking her. Pair a "high" creature count with running Lili and say, Sylvan Library, we have a recipe for the possibility for Delver to be a Merfolk of the Pearl Trident far more often than I think we'd really want.
To bring this together, what about the idea of Delverless-Delver? So, in my mind, I mash two reasonable ideas (that "anti-Miracles" list and my own, old list that I found was pretty decent versus Miracles) and arrive at this abomination (which I came up with in the 5 minutes since I thought of this stupid idea):
4 x Deathrite Shaman
4 x Nimble Mongoose
4 x Tarmogoyf
1 x Vendilion Clique
3 x Hymn to Tourach
1 x Liliana of the Veil
2 x Fatal Push
4 x Ponder
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Abrupt Decay
4 x Force of Will
4 x Daze
1 x Sylvan Library
2 x Bayou
4 x Underground Sea
1 x Tropical Island
4 x Polluted Delta
1 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Misty Rainforest
4 x Wasteland
This is probably a shit idea. There are definite issues, not the least of which is a low Blue spell count for Force. Additionally, there is the added reliance on the 'yard which means you are really going to be a even more of a dog to Rest in Peace. While Delver can sometimes be a turd, it is an evasive threat that this list now lacks.
Anyone think this idea is anything but crap? It's been a while since I was able to get out a play, does anyone think this might be a decent list versus Death and Taxes (I think it is safe to assume it is OK versus Miracles)?
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Im totally agree with you, delver is the worst creature card in that list, but you cant change him, maybe nimblee can work maybe we can work to adapt for bob,,,, really, i was talking of the delver on my list with a friend yesterday on wathsapp...
All of my attempts at Delverless Delver so far have ended up being BUG Midrange, because I don't think any other card plays the tempo plan as well. That said, I usually remove Delver for 2 or 3 Baleful Strix and a Jace, and then make some adjustments in the main.
Right now I plan on testing a List similar to Ben Friedman's 4c list with Fatal Push instead of Lightning Bolt. I really like the 4c list, but the mana base is just horrendous. By dropping red, we could play 4 Usea, 2 Trop, 9 fetchlands, 4 Wasteland. Since the list would be basically UB splashing for 3 Decays and Deathrite activations, 2 Trops should be enough, though maybe 3 Trops and 8 fetches are better. In theory I like 9 fetches to get Revolt consitently.
Without red, the deck obviously loses some reach, but I rarely need the Bolts to burn out my opponent anyway. Most of the time TNN and DRS get there on a stalled board.
The sideboard is almost the same I play in the 4c list at the moment (no red cards...). In place of the Flusterstorm, I play a Loam in the 4c version (as I said, the mana base is anything but stable facing mana denial). With the BUG mana base, that shouldn't be necessary. Without Bolt, there are more dead cards against combo in the MD, so I want to have another SB card against them.
As a bonus, I think the list would be quite good if more people jump on the Push train, since TNN and Angler just don't care about the card.
The List:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
4 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Pithing Needle
2 Baleful Strix
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Darkblast (could become Marsh Casualties, but I don't like the Sorcery speed)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Regarding Delver:
The card is bad quite often, but I wouldn't cut it from the MD. I think having a CMC 1 threat against combo is too important. Not to speak of all those random wins it can generate against any deck. But I think people should board it out more often, when the card is bad. I hate it against other delver decks for example. Just stabilize your mana, kill their stuff and overpower them with your big threats afterwards.
The other thing about Delver: it's Blue, and we need a healthy number of Blue cards to consistently cast Force of Will. If you start skimping on the number, you're going to find yourself much more frequently unable to pitch-cast Force. You also start lacking enough aggression to actually close out games early. I agree with the sentiment that once Delver is cut, you might as well just be playing Shardless BUG.
A card that starts looking more attractive with the introduction of Fatal Push is Dark Confidant:
19 Lands
4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
3 [Flex]
That's just a rough start, but I kind of like the idea of over-loading on cards with Confidant.
I think tarmo/Bob BUG Delver lists are out for the time being. Lots of decks just got this same new toy, so Gurmag>goyf, which means no Bob to me, as running it is pretty stupid if you play 2 Angler and 4 FoW. You are begging to lose. Maybe when the dust settles it could be a consideration, but atm I'm pretty positive Bob isn't good enough yet.
I too have been looking at Friedman's list as a starting point. My issue is that I cannot decide on numbers for Push and Decay. Also, I think Stifle will be decent again, this new card makes players want to pop fetches, wastes. Anyway, the deck is finally getting a little love, which is exciting.
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
Fatal Push is just another removal spell. It could just as easily be StP. "Dies to Removal" isn't really a big deal, the point of Dark Confidant is that if he survives a few turns, he draws you a stream of cards. And if your opponent does kill Bob, that's one less spell they have to deal with your other threats.
Dark Confidant has always been good against Miracles and Combo, since those decks generally don't attack our life total so aggressively. The problem was against other aggressive decks, since dying to Bob flips was a legitimate and somewhat frequent concern. But now we have access to 4 copies of a good 1 mana removal spell in Black, in addition to whatever secondary removal spells we want to run. Thus, aggressive decks are more easily handled, and we are more easily able to conserve our life total.
Tarmogoyf might be worth cutting, perhaps for TNN. But what I like about Goyf over Delve threats is that he is able to be cast reliably on turn 2 and doesn't eat into our DRS options. He's also a less painful flip for Bob than bigger-cmc creatures.
It's actually a removal spell that doesn't hit everything StP does, which makes it inferior and somewhat less likely to be played unless white is absent. Also, if an opponent knows you have large threats in your list, its reasonable to believe they will be less willing to use an StP on a card that Push can deal with, especially if that player feels not very pressured. Your arguments are fine, I'm just sure that at first, people (in my area, at least) are going to jam them into every black deck ever to get a feel for the card, so I'll next level until the card finds its places in the meta and adjust accordingly.
I'm currently more interested in Painful Truths and Sylvan Libraries than Bob.
This will be my starting 60 when Push releases I believe:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True Name Nemesis
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Leovold
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacomb
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland
I think Push will give this deck what it needs to be the best Delver deck in the format, and I think BUG will become the best 3 color combination as well. Fatal Push gives us that one mana answer against so many threats that are annoying. I know when I play against Jund last week and lost 2-0, Push would have been fantastic. Bob, Goyf, Shaman, etc.
I do think completely cutting Goyf is correct. Once Push is seeing play in every black deck, True Name, Gurmag, and probably Tombstalker will all see their stock rise substantially.
In the Tapout version, Tombstalker is probably a better card than Angler. The only issue I have with these builds is it feels like lands is almost ignored. The interaction is almost nonexistent with their game plan.
I pretend Lands doesn't exist till game 2...:/
Day 2 metagame breakdown is up: http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/c...own-2017-01-08.
It seems that Sultai is doing very well (not surprised by that) and Fatal Push should help iteven more. I started playing Shardless Sultai but as it stands I'll come here.
I've come to pretty much exactly that conclusion on many occasions, though at that point you really do shift towards midrange/control rather than being anything resembling a tempo deck. I've had a lot of fun (and some decent results) with Delverless lists though and I definitely think they're worth exploring. That being said...
This is a huge non-bo. Don't do it.
Great showing at the GP. Nelson and Majors were both on the same list, which appears to be the Malimujo list from MTGO that 5-0's every day.
Do you guys think moving to 4x True Names with some number of Leovold and Angler/Tombstalker while taking out Goyfs is a direction we want to go? TNN just seems so good right now.
I'm not sure. TNN will be definitely good in the new metagame but I feel like it's slow and this deck already feels slow (to me and for a Delver deck). Perhaps it could still make it as 4 of though.
TNN is a fine 1-of, but it's definitely a creature you include after you've maxed out on Tarmogoyfs in BUG Delver. Being a turn slower and not hitting as hard against combo is a big deal, as is being smaller than most Eldrazi rather than bigger. Add to that the almost-guaranteed uptick in -1/-1 effects and I'm less keen on TNN since those effects are otherwise blank against us.
This is probably correct. I ran BUG Midrange last night with 4x TNN and did well with it but that was with a more control type build and not as focused on tempo.
I agree with btm10. I have exactly this issue with TNN while he's good against fair decks, especially against something like Miracles and lands he's slow and thus much worse against combo where you want to put fact clock on them and as he said the fact that he's smaller than most Eldrazi and thus can't trade with them doesn't help either.
I can see TNN as a 1 of but I don't think we want more. If you want to play more of them it's better to drop Delver and turn your deck into slower midrange deck.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote