I don't think Pile is the worst match up out there. It's a little obnoxious to play sometimes because post-board we're both BGx midrange decks, but we close the game out a lot faster than them.
Asking local Pile players, they seem to say that LOTV is a big threat here because of the +1 each turn, but I haven't been too impressed playing it. I think Last Hope is better than LOTV in this matchup for clearing out Baleful Strix and Snap, and re-buying threats. The +1 doesn't kill DRS or Leo, but without Strix they have a pretty weak board on defence, and you're attacking for 7 with a flipped Delver and Goyf.
Tombstalker isn't at his best here, but if you clear out Strixes it's a big dude. TNN has always been a mirror-breaker for creature matches because of how stupid the card is, and I haven't played enough Leo to say for certain.
But I have played a lot of Bitterblossom however, and I don't think it's where you want to be. It's almost impossible for Pile to interact with outside of Abrupt Decay, but it's so slow that it won't have enough incremental impact unless you're playing more than one copy to guarantee it's played on T2. Even so, T2 Bitterblossom doesn't push a point of damage until T4. In this matchup we are still the aggressive deck, and In my experience turning big guys sideways is pretty reliable.
Hi guys my name is Simon and I'm new to this thread (at least as a writer because I've already browsed 'The Soruce' since August 2016)
When I first picked up BUG Delver in late 2016, I played a more tempo-ish style with Dark Confidant and Stifle. Then I tried a lot of other decks during the last year (Grixis Delver, TNN BUG, 4c Loam, Czech Pile) but now I want to go back to the roots.
I don't have much experience with the tapout version of BUG Delver but here is my first list (which I wasn't able to test yet):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
1 Dismember
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Hydroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sylvan Library
2 Thoughtseize
The reason why I want to play TNN are the 'free-wins' they create very often. But I'm not really sure if they really fit into this shell as they are very clunky.
I pondered replacing them with another Leovold and another Tarmogoyf. Leovold is also extremely mana intense but I think his abilities will pay off against a lot of decks.
What are your opinions on my list? Please feel free to criticize my card choices.
In my opinion there are only a few slots worth debating in Team America. One would be how to split threats, the second which and how many planeswalkers to play, and third the sideboard. I, for myself, am working on a list to take to a big tournament aswell and I am also fairly new to the archetype. In my limited experience I found that TNN is too slow and clunky most of the time. Sure, it's hard to answer but a lot of decks can just race you, so I prefer cheap and efficient threats (maxing Goyf + 1 Tombstalker at the moment). I am unsure about the planeswalker question. I have tested all combinations quite heavily, and I can't decide which is right, so a split might be the right choice to have game in every regard.Originally Posted by FlinkerMomonga
Regarding the sideboards, I did a little deck analysis on TC Decks, which gave me a a somewhat common distribution of: 2-3 removal (when you lean heavy on LtlH you might want more Edict effects here), 2 Mass Removal (Charm, Deluge or Marsh Casualties, 2 discard spells, 2-3 counter spells (mostly fluster or pierce), 2-3 grave hate cards (here I like Extraction, because it fits so well into the gameplan of tapout), 4-5 flex slots which are for Control Matchups and other bad matchups like DnT (here you can find JTMS, Leovold (when not playing maindeck) Sylvan Library, Life from the Loam and other niche cards.)
So I think your sideboard looks quite good. You might want to play more cards against control tho.
Overall I think you might be to heavy on 3-drops here. How did you (and others) like Leovold maindeck? I'm unsure about him, because he feels so clunky most of the time. On the other hand he is a blue card, which is nice for FoW and relevant against most of the field. What are your opinions regarding Lilianas?
I think Team America is an awesome deck with alot of raw power, matched by almost no other deck in the format.
Hmm I think you're right regarding the pressure a Tarmogoyf can provide. Goyf enters the battlefield much earlier than Leo, is a lot easier to cast and can start the beat down very fast.
I guess I will cut the TNNs for a full playset of Tarmogoyf.
Sadly, I have nearly zero experience with BUG Delver at this time. I just played a little bit against Grixis Delver and in this matchup, she is just a bomb! I can imagine that she might be a very good alrounder as she can kill most creatures in aggressive decks, give us back our threats in more grindy matchups and is able to ultimate in hardcontrol games.
I will test a list with the stock creature shell (4 DRS, 4 Delver, 4 Goyf, 1 Tomb), the full Hymn and 2 LTLH.
I'm going to post my results as soon as I'm done.
dunno why everyone is still playing goyf after the print of fatal push+ the now maindeck>(saw lists with up to3) mirran crusader to blink fp... you are just adding a blank or an efficient 1mana for 2 removal
the games ive won with tnn while my opponent had one or multiple answers to goyf are quite often ...same goes for loses to my side vs an opposing tnn in my opinion the cut on speed vs the value is really worth it and to be honest if i want to play something on turn 2 its a hymn not goyf cause he is vulnerable even to bolt most of the time... if speed is your main concern switching color to grixis/rug/ur would be the answer cause atleast i play bug to still have a chance vs combo and beat other fair decks by top deck bombs like TnN and leovold after we traded removal/discard spells
regarding ltlh she is amazing(vs grixis/DNT) or bad.... for me a clear sign to put her into sideboard...since i dont have lotv i tried a maindeck jace and im pretty satisfied so far
Well, of course fatal push has been printed. And of course Goyf takes Decay and StP...
That said, Goyf still provides a strong body, very usefull in a lot of matchups. The important here is not to compare Goyf and TNN. It's to understand that you have to put your opponent under pressure all the time, with multiple threats he won't be able to manage in the end.
If you want your Goyfs to be at their best, you should definitely play HTT before. It's a classic move but still a strong one.
DRS prepares for Delver or HTT, HTT prepares for Goyf, Goyf prepares for Stalker...
another thing to consider is that many lists don't run the full suite of 4 pushes. And they have to deal with the DRS or Delver or Tombstalker so if Goyf swings or blocks once, he's already paid for himself imo
I can understand the points concerning goyf but I also think that the pros outweight the cons at the moment. Goyf is such a reliable and consistent threat. He is incredible easy to replace, and provides a fast clock which is also important against combo. TNN suffers heavily from the X/1 weakness, which makes him not as untouchable as people want him to be. He receives alot of splash hate. What do you guys think about artificialy enhancing goyf through splitting removal to different card types? (e.g. replacing some Decay with Baleful Strix and Dead Weight).
Regarding LTLH, I agree that there are MUs or even some Situations where she just does nothing. LOTV is never dead, just sometimes less relevant I guess.
Im also still on the fence about Leovold. He feels so clunky. But I have to admit, that I have not much experience with him. How do you guys feel about him?
If you want to close the games much faster, you have to play an early hitter like Tarmogoyf.
Sure, it dies to removal but what creature doesn't?
As some of you said, I think that TNN and Leovold are too clunky for the Delver shell.
They fit much better in the midrange version of Team America:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Thread)/page74
I'm also not sure about LTLH. I could think about 2 LTLH in the sideboard and switch them for 2 LOTV in the maindeck against decks like Elves or DnT.
Maybe a 1-1 maindeck split is also reasonable.
first its about cutting true name for goyfs so its all about comparison
3 UNBLOCKABLE damage a turn is a big threat
(dnt taxes block karakas bounce or the main deck mirran crusaderS, or a batterskull...grixis pyromancer tokens to jump block...baleful strix 2for1block or my favorite a true name blocking the way for the last couple of damage) all arguments how easy it is to handle goyfs beside removal so he is no threat at all and isnt able to push damage + blanking cards in someones hand is also huge
most decks have atleast 4 main deck answers to goyf but 0-1 for true name even after sideboard
and you have to draw enough treats to execute your "plan" of basicially exchange removals until you maybe draw a topdeck goyf hope he is out of answers while true name sticks from the beginning and its a race
there is also the fact if they board in rest in peace for tombstalker and drs you have additional 4 dead cards
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
If you want to close the games much faster, you have to play an early hitter like Tarmogoyf.
Sure, it dies to removal but what creature doesn't?
well TNN doesnt atleast not mainboard thats the whole point
Well, you should then play 4 copies of TNN instead of Goyfs. Your results will be great, no doubt.
Oh, btw, 3CCM spells in tempo shells are also very easy to cast (with 44% wasteland decks in the meta and 42% decks playing DRS).
And I won't talk about the UU cost in a BB oriented pack.
Last edited by Adibou1er; 04-04-2018 at 11:52 AM.
Well, I think there is no "optimal" list for BUG Delver at the moment, so its really hard to say what is right. Therefore I really appreciate the discussion in this thread. I agree that TNN is in a somewhat different slot than goyf (just as in Grixis Delver), and I can see the point of him being a reliable albeit slow source of damage. He might be really good in MUs, where our deck tries to go the midrange route (for example against Czech Pile). But that means TNN is even worse in MUs, where we have to close the game out ASAP (Show and Tell, Storm, Burn, other "fringe-combo-decks"). Not only because he is so slow, but even more because he represents a big strain on the mana base (UU for a deck that tries to have BB as fast as turn 3, as Adibou1er mentioned). Grixis Delver can compensate this with a faster clock and burn spells - we can't unfortunately.
So, I can see the point of playing TNN in slower metas. Maybe 2 TNN + 3 Goyf could be worth a try, but I doubt it at the moment. I feel BUG Delver needs to go big (and fast) or die trying mimicking what other decks can do better than us.
Imo: Tombstalker > Goyf > Leo > TNN
The real threat that closes games in this deck is Tombstalker if you enable him to be successful. TNN is slow and allows your opponent too much time to recover from Hymns and countermagic/wasteland disruption. Here is my current threat suite:
4 DRS
4 Delver
2 Goyf
2 Leovold
2 Tombstalker
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
A lot of talk here about people tapping out early for "fast clock" Goyfs, but I find tapping out early for something non-disruptive will lose you games more often than not in this format. You typically just need any two threats for a quick enough clock in BUG Delver. The "2-ofs" here are great accompanying threats to Delver or DRS but you rarely want to see multiples.
I'm higher than most on Leovold here, but he overperforms in tough matchups, gives you a unique angle of disruption, pitches to force, and really slams the door after a hymn or two. Also beats down for three, who knew?
Also, UU spells are tougher in this deck than most like to admit.
more likely 1-2 forgot to add the number of TNNs my bad ...4 would be pretty clunky thats right
but atleast for me goyfs is way to vulnerable now to all common removal and more a 2of in BUG
Had some bad beats at GP Seattle...
List was Hans's from Eternal Weekend card for card (I was having the most success with this lately on cockatrice)
Round 1: BUG Control/Reanimator (Deathrite Shaman, Baleful Strix, Leovold, Entomb, Exhume, Reanimate, Griselbrand, Iona, etc) 1-2
Round 2: TES 2-0
Round 3: Omnishow 2-1
Round 4: Omnishow 1-2 (Game 3 he Misdirected my Hymn, I forced, and he Flusterstormed for the ultimate blowout)
Round 5: Merfolk 0-2 (Lost game 1 to Harbinger bounce my delver block my goyf for enough time to win the race, lost game 2 to back to basics and harbinger as my goyf was about to swing for lethal)
At this point, I was feeling tilted because I am naive and had no idea that parking would be so expensive, so I figured I'd cut my losses and peace back home (2 hours away). I really wish I had known that parking would have been so bad, I had to use my "Last Chance Trial money" to pay for that instead, and I only got to play in 1 last chance trial, which I beat Grixis Control but lost to Back to Basics Miracles (single elim so that was that).
Event looked stacked though and I am looking forward to watching the rest of GP Seattle. Still believe in the power of TA, going to buy back into magic online to get some real practice and improve as a player again. I made too many small mistakes that I didn't used to make when I played regularly on MTGO.
You seem to have gotten really unfortunate with your opponents. The matchups look okay on paper. Always annoying to play against random brews. How do you feel the Merfolk MU plays out in general?
Merfolk is a matchup I have a bunch of experience against. It is high variance, but I feel like it is about 50/50.
It is very easy to see how we can lose:
- TNN/Phantasmal Image draw
- Lord + dorks draw
- Chalice/Back to Basics draw
But often times it goes like this too:
- Delver/DRS/Goyf tempo draw
- Removal into planeswalker draw
- Their deck just craps out on them due to consistency issues of not running cantrips (like they end up with extra vials and force of wills when they don't matter, etc)
I'd say it's about 50/50.
Streamed some bug this morning:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/248439908
Apologies if this isnt the right place for this but I have been wonder (with all the noise) what would happen to TA if DRS bites the bullet?
I love the deck and only managed to complete it in paper around a year ago. I have been jamming it whenever I get a chance to mixed results :D still have a lot to learn...
Does the deck still have legs if DRS goes?
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Probably not in its current iteration, but TA plays enough good cards to have some kind of future. Who knows what it would look like though.
I think BUG Thresh is pretty legit, even if it's "worse than RUG" if RUG becomes the best delver deck.
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